GT5 needs to have DEAD zone adjustments, and a SOME other suggestions.

I have no idea what they have or haven't done for GT5. But before its released I thought I'd put up some simple things the game needs to have as options.

-Adjustable dead zones for the steering and the pedals, especially the brake pedal.

I have the Driving force GT wheel, and notice that on GT5P if the brake is even slightly pressed, it registers as significant braking force and it affects the car a whole deal, on all cars. Most real cars don't behave like this, there is almost always a significant zone in the first movement of the pedal where its literally dead movement and then it gradually kicks in depending on the car.

Reason I say this is some people such as myself like to hover over the brake in certain points, and don't want minute first few possibly accidental movements of the pedal to matter much or affect the car.

-The wheel also needs to have optional very very slight adjustments for a dead zone in the centre

And now my biggest Peeve with sim racing games. PLEASE MATCH ALL "DRIVING AID" characteristics of the cars in game, to their REAL LIFE COUNTERPARTS not just slap the same attributes across all cars without a thought.

What I mean by this is I have noticed in almost Every racing sim released to date, they attempt to match driving physics and mechanics to very precise levels, and go into great effort and detail with this which is great, but then they do something baffling like implement TCS and ABS and AWS and ECS and EBD and ABS, basically any of these driver aid technologies the game has (which are based on real life implementations), evenly across ALL CARS. I have always found this is massively detrimental to the realism of the game, especially when it should be a relatively simple things to resolve at least to a basic level!

A 1980s dodge does not have the same driver aids as a modern Lancer Evo, yet the games make no distinction between these! You select a car and whatever your settings for the driving aids are that's what ANY car you drive magically now has!?
You suddenly have ABS TCS and AWS on a car that didn't even come with power steering!

It seems the developers are making no correlation to what cars actually has in real life, and just slap all these driver aids equally across all cars, when in fact these are major differences between cars which should be replicated intricately in the game, not ignored entirely.
If I had my way I would even implement minor details like for example a GTR compared to a GTR Vspec II has different driver aid characteristics, even if all the other components of the car can essentially match. It is this level of detail I want to see. It will really add life and realistic character to each car.
Also some cars allow you to turn of TCS, some don't, and some allow you to set varying degrees of driving aids and combinations, for example the Ferrari f430 has the Manettino dial, the GTR has racing normal and off for VDC, tranny, suspension .


It is really a must that the stock cars match the stock car characteristics in the game. For the sake of customisations to these attributes, since it does happen in real life, making changes to them can be done in the form of upgrades, but these should be strictly though and through and controlled to match what you would be able to realistically with a real life counterpart.

For example no matter how hard you try you cannot implement the same driving aids on a old car that you can on a modern car. There is no point just having an upgrade like (install stage 3 TCS and stage 3 ECS on just any car you want. It essentially eliminates any point to what I am proposing as it brings you back step step one again where you have the unrealistic behaviour that all cars are equal in terms of driving aids, which is not the case in real life.
It is next to impossible to implement good driving aids to cars that were not designed for it from the ground up unless you throw a lot of cash and development into it, and even then the results are crude. So you should never be able to have your Buick have radar assisted braking or anything fancy like that. Even with mods I would like to see realistic control of what can and cant be done with cars, and I think most people should be happy that the way their car is behaving in game is in harmony with what you would get if you jumped in that car in real life.

The steering feedback also needs to be finely paid attention to. Some cars have very heavy steering to them some don't. Every car I drive in Prologue feel the same in terms of force feedback?
If the car has light steering in real life I want it to have light steering in the game. If its an old car with heavy steering and no power steering I think it should be reflected in the game without the user having to change any feedback settings by guessing. If a cars steering gets lighter when its accelerating and gets nose light I want it to be reflected in the feel of the steering wheel.

Im not sure but I think the current force feedback does none of this, it is is very static.

In real life the steering wheel on some cars snaps back a lot when you let go of turned wheel and drive straight and on some it straightens up slower. Some older cars with higher profile tires and loose suspension and chassis, don't even respond to short quick movements of at all or respond later to steering input. I think all of these can be implemented in the game. They don't have to match in detail exactly all 900 cars but at least an honest attempt at trying to match such steering characteristics roughly..If the car didnt come with power steering you should have to fit it to be able to use it.

Anyway so far it looks like teh dev team are fantastic and I wish them luck. Looking forward to the game since I think even prologue is 9/10, and this looks much much better. I wonder if the dev team are taking onboard suggestions such as this and if there is any way to pass such suggestions on. 👍 I don't even know if these are the right forums to post this.

No! No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!


No deadzone rubbish, none of it. If the steering is modelled correctly then it doesn't NEED adjusting, its how the designers intended it. With adjustment you are basically saying, "we couldn't be bothered making it feel right, and we figured, as a pimply teenager you'd know better anyway". NO!

Then you get people like me who mess with the settings fruitlessly till the end of time because every second internet expert knows exactly how a Ferrari F40 should feel and bases his/her settings on what is ultimately their own preference and not necessarily at all realistic!

Kazunori, don't listen to this guy for two reasons:

1. It will delay the game even more!

2. You probably know better.

xSNAKEx

Reason I say this is some people such as myself like to hover over the brake in certain points, and don't want minute first few possibly accidental movements of the pedal to matter much or affect the car.


You suddenly have ABS TCS and AWS on a car that didn't even come with power steering!

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Don't rest your foot on the brake, you wouldn't on a real car, unless you are left foot brakeing, even then, unlearn the habit.

Switch off the driving aids, problem solved.

And anyway, you don't get a stage three TCS, you can adjust the level of TC however, but learn to drive without it.

xSNAKEx

Most real cars don't behave like this.

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GT5 is a game...not reality.

Be nice to adjust sound levels ie environment, engine, tyres etc.
Your right about the brake pedal though abit to sharp.

Get a better wheel and pedals then.

The DFGT is notorious for it's weak brake pedal.

Simples.

Left foot braking? Well whatever, do what you want.

In my world, the left foot is for the CLUTCH.

I absolutely HATE those folks on the highway who 'hover' over their brake pedal. So annoying.

peter_vod69

No deadzone rubbish, none of it. If the steering is modelled correctly then it doesn't NEED adjusting, its how the designers intended it. With adjustment you are basically saying, "we couldn't be bothered making it feel right, and we figured, as a pimply teenager you'd know better anyway". NO!

Then you get people like me who mess with the settings fruitlessly till the end of time because every second internet expert knows exactly how a Ferrari F40 should feel and bases his/her settings on what is ultimately their own preference and not necessarily at all realistic!

Kazunori, don't listen to this guy for two reasons:

1. It will delay the game even more!

2. You probably know better.

Click to expand...

petervod is right... If its modelled correctly you dont need those adjustments... otherwise it becomes a mess like NFS: Shift.... Took me forever to find something I was comfortable with in Shift while it still had a deadzone and that nasty pendulum effect... SO yeah... I agree with PV on this one... No adjustments... only for the buttons..

(Oh there I go with my surplus of periods again.. )

I would not like any more wheel options then they already have, the Force Feedback and button assignments. As far as the wheel its self i think they do fine with it. playing NFS shift i always felt that i did not get the setup for the wheel dead zones "right" i was still good at that game but just turning on the game and not worrying about that part of it i like better. i kind of look at that not being their as part of GT like the licences tests, it makes it less complicated and aside from tuning it levels the playing field to what Kaz feels is realistic to his racing experience

Get a GT3 RS V2 and you can do it all on the fly.

Getin mine tomorrow

I don't agree with everything, but an old car that doesn't have TCS, ASM, or ABS should'nt have these features in the game either. That's just plain logic.

Yeah I would like that feature.

Although I can't help but think it's my awkward seating position that means it hurts to hold my foot above the brake pedal. I need a new coffee table I guess.

But I would be very happy if PD could include that feature.

(Also TL;DR, s I'm only commenting on the top part of your post)

d3br34k5

Left foot braking? Well whatever, do what you want.

In my world, the left foot is for the CLUTCH.

I absolutely HATE those folks on the highway who 'hover' over their brake pedal. So annoying.

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It is also dangerous, most people's first instinct in a crash is to slam their foot down on the brake, but the other foot in most cases will follow, so if one foot is on the brake, one on the gas, then not much will happen.

I cant brake well with my left foot, i tried it for fun in my real car. it's too unnatural and as someone else said its for the clutch

hampus_dh

Get a GT3 RS V2 and you can do it all on the fly.

Getin mine tomorrow

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nice wheel but I think a simple ingame option would be cheaper

The brakes in GT5 auto-calibrate , so you need to floor it all the way down to get max range when you first start playing

CoolColJ

The brakes in GT5 auto-calibrate , so you need to floor it all the way down to get max range when you first start playing

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Thanks mate I didn't know that. Do you have to do that before every race? Could please elaborate.

Thank you.

Not just dead zones are needed, but linear and non-linear percentage adjustments and limits for control inputs across the travel span, especially steering. Savable in setups for each car.

This is something I would like to have in every racing game.

FM3 does have steering limit adjustments, but it needs additional options as well.

xSNAKEx

I have no idea what they have or haven't done for GT5. But before its released I thought I'd put up some simple things the game needs to have as options.

-Adjustable dead zones for the steering and the pedals, especially the brake pedal.

I have the Driving force GT wheel, and notice that on GT5P if the brake is even slightly pressed, it registers as significant braking force and it affects the car a whole deal, on all cars. Most real cars don't behave like this, there is almost always a significant zone in the first movement of the pedal where its literally dead movement and then it gradually kicks in depending on the car.

Click to expand...

If you own a DFGT, I recommend looking for the squash-ball mod for the brake pedal. It works great for iRacing and I've even tried it with the TT demo and it helps modulating the brakes.

peter_vod69

No! No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!


No deadzone rubbish, none of it. If the steering is modelled correctly then it doesn't NEED adjusting, its how the designers intended it. With adjustment you are basically saying, "we couldn't be bothered making it feel right, and we figured, as a pimply teenager you'd know better anyway". NO!

Then you get people like me who mess with the settings fruitlessly till the end of time because every second internet expert knows exactly how a Ferrari F40 should feel and bases his/her settings on what is ultimately their own preference and not necessarily at all realistic!

Kazunori, don't listen to this guy for two reasons:

1. It will delay the game even more!

2. You probably know better.

Click to expand...

Whoa relax there buddy. I'm simply saying the game should have the feature as an option. You don't have to use it if you don't want it... Its not anything that will disadvantage or advantage players, its just extra flexibility for those who want it, similar to mapping controls, adjusting screen brightness etc.

And you didn't notice I'm only talking about specifically very minor deadzone adjustments when the wheel is centred to avoid 1mm movements translating to such strong response from the game for people who have rough wheels such as mine which can be a bit flaky at the centre. Its almost perfect, I'm talking about a degree of deadzone.
I wont even comment on the rest of your post about teenagers and F430s and fruity settings and need for speed carbon, they are totally irrelevant to this and to be honest not exactly sure what you are on about..

BTW, adding deadzones is programming 101, you automatically assume it will delay the game like its some major change...

No46_TheDoctor

Don't rest your foot on the brake, you wouldn't on a real car, unless you are left foot braking, even then, unlearn the habit.

Switch off the driving aids, problem solved.

And anyway, you don't get a stage three TCS, you can adjust the level of TC however, but learn to drive without it.

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Ha ha thanks for the tips but I won't be taking any of it onboard. I think now your getting into peoples driving styles which I think one should have the right to do as they see fit

But what they heck Ill elaborate some. I don't rest my left foot on the brake always, I sometimes left foot brake, but not always, I sometimes right foot brake, but not always, I sometimes right foot brake hover, bu not always... it really depends on the situation.
But this was never my intended area of discussion.

I simply meant that on my GT driving force pedals, the brake is way too sensitive. 1mm of movement on the brake pedal makes the car brake a crazy amount, its just very out of whack for my liking, so I would prefer if the game had a option to set the first 5 or 10% input as a dead zone. It is nothing complex.


Look, ideally I would like to have force feedback on the brake and clutch pedals, so you can feel when you brakes are kicking in, and have the brake pedal start to push back and mush as the brakes wear out, which is easily doable, even many years ago, you just need a motor in the pedals and some software, I just don't think there is a wheel and support for it yet, but mark my words it will come.
For the time being I would be happy with at least some customization on the brake pedals for gt5 like a simple dead zone of input. Obviously when the brake eventually kicks in the game needs to keep the scaling the same, so it starts of braking with minimum force when the pedal is say 10% depressed instead of at 0% and gradually works to full brake force when 100% pressed in.

I also totally disagree with what you said about switchining of driving aids having the effect of problem solved, look at the bottom of my post as to why.

TokyoDrift

GT5 is a game...not reality.

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My mistake. I don't know what came over me but I was some reason thinking they were trying to base some aspects of the game on reality? I'm such a fool!

I kept getting this strange, (probably witches) gut feeling the game was part of a genre that tries to "simulate" something, but that something is probably another game, no way its reality. Imagine how funny it would be if this game was trying to be a "real" driving simulator.

I'm looking forward to flying my cappuccino over the alps when the game comes out, I think the graphics are good enough to make the cars fly, well they look like cars to me but since cars exist in real life, they must be planes in the game.

Blitz187

petervod is right... If its modelled correctly you dont need those adjustments... otherwise it becomes a mess like NFS: Shift.... Took me forever to find something I was comfortable with in Shift while it still had a deadzone and that nasty pendulum effect... SO yeah... I agree with PV on this one... No adjustments... only for the buttons..

(Oh there I go with my surplus of periods again.. )

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Well you cant exactly have a single setting which is modelled "correctly" or incorrectly that simply as you put it. The games input mechanics rely on two things, the wheel+ pedals you have, and the way the game interprets this information.
There are a large range of wheels and gear and they all behave differently. Some have adjustable things some don't, but The game cant control the physical construction of the hardware and neither can I on my driving force GT. So having some option on the software side is a good thing.

hampus_dh

Get a GT3 RS V2 and you can do it all on the fly.

Getin mine tomorrow

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Yea as I suspected there might be, there are wheels which have adjustments for deadzones and things like that, but I don't want to go out and keep buying wheels till I find the right one, when its quite easy to so it on the software side as well. Ill probably buy another wheel when the game comes out but I want to be able to make better use of my Force GT as well, if given the option.

I will look into it though.

LaBounti

I cant brake well with my left foot, i tried it for fun in my real car. it's too unnatural and as someone else said its for the clutch

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I would not recommend it it all all for public driving. I have personally seen the aftermath of a car going of a parking lot, twice, from what i heard the word was they accidentally slammed the accelerator instead of the brake. Both ladies I think. One was ground level and ok and the other dropped 3 stories onto concrete with the front of the car, she was already in the ambulance when i was there but the car was crumbled to the firewall almost. Airbags deployed and i think she lived.

On the news Ive heard a few other similar reports in Sydney as well over the years.

However for racing purposes in some occasions it can help give a nudge or a change in weight distribution you need on rare occasions, so its good to be able to nicely do it. But it definitely has to be done right to fit in with the physics. I remember in gran turismo 1, , a friend of mine used to use the digital pad and used to effectively left foot brake by tapping the box while still holding X and he was flying! Left foot braking was effectively better than normal braking in gt1 (and actually many other racing games) which is ridiculous,. and there I was with my analogue sticks trying to match him

humpus

I don't agree with everything, but an old car that doesn't have TCS, ASM, or ABS should'nt have these features in the game either. That's just plain logic.

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Well you say it is just plain logic, but it looks like even simple plain logic isn't very common, as this hasn't been the case in games so far.

It seems a lot of people can't grasp the concept of the problem I am raising, and stare right through it or see it as a non issue, or if they can recognise something is amiss, they think that simply turning off the driving aids on or off is the exact same thing and boom there is no problem.

That type of reasoning isn't logical imo for these reasons.

-1. How are you supposed to know exactly what driving aids a particular car has or doesn't have you can turn them on or off accordingly? Google each cars spec sheet before you use it and think about what you need to set?
Personally I know most of my favourite cars in detail, so I will have a good idea of what type of driving aids they have, but the responsibility of having to manually know and set each driving aid should not be up to the player.

2. Even if you do set the settings to the best of your knowledge, I'm not entirely comfortable and convinced that simply turning the global driving aids settings to whatever you think the stock car has is in the same boat as getting acknowledgement from the game designers that this is in fact what it does and doesn't have. To be what you guys are suggesting is almost the same as having to set you own HP and weight values for each car.

3.The biggest issue is not that you have to attempt to manually set aids just so you can do justice to the real life counterpart of the stock car, but that these cars should never had had these driving aids available in the first place, let alone enabled by default!
Also turning of these options may put you at a disadvantage compared to other players and this should not be case when all you want is to have a stock car battle.

Sure have the driving aids on amateur or arcade mode, but in career or simulation it should be spot on to what the real car has, and you should have to manually fit parts to the car to get driving aids, thus making it a modded car and no longer a stock car.

Blitz187

If its modelled correctly you dont need those adjustments... otherwise it becomes a mess like NFS: Shift.... Took me forever to find something I was comfortable with in Shift while it still had a deadzone and that nasty pendulum effect...

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Same!It took me one hour in Shift to make controls feel good.

Well if they are basing the game on reality as you say, there shouldn't be a deadzone adjustment.

peter_vod69

Well if they are basing the game on reality as you say, there shouldn't be a deadzone adjustment.

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It doesnt exactly work that way. Your blowing it out of proportion, I'm talking about very very vry minor deadzone adjustments at the centre to overcome hardware irregularties. Or if not deadzone the very first few readable units to the left and right off centre being able to register as straight.

Most cars have a natural deadzone or "leeway" from the all compoments and joints between you turning the wheel and the actual tires moving anyway.. Its not the same as a game steering wheel reading directs inputs from the wheel.

peter_vod69

Well if they are basing the game on reality as you say, there shouldn't be a deadzone adjustment.

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Steering ratios and front end geometry are a reality in racing cars, and maybe different for particular tracks and/or drivers, unless dictated by the sanctioning body. This affects how smoothly the car steers and corners as to the amount of steering input.

Off center or following dead zones are more of a game adjustment to compensate for too-much steering input per travel movement as far as easing drivability.
Particularly in a over-steery car.

In the GT4 and GT5P series this area is pretty well balanced and not adjustably (IMO) essential since you can change drivability with chassis adjustments pretty effectively.

You may have noticed in GT4, particularly in the race cars during a 24 hr race, how when a chassis refresh was needed the car would begin to stick-steer, simulating a loss of handling.

alucard0712

Same!It took me one hour in Shift to make controls feel good.

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Yea the control adjustments were not properly explained which added to the difficulty of trying to use them.


All and all these adjustments do add a element of complexity and since Kaz has always done a good job balancing this they may not be needed.

Even so I'd still like to have them.

xSNAKEx

It doesnt exactly work that way. Your blowing it out of proportion, I'm talking about very very vry minor deadzone adjustments at the centre to overcome hardware irregularties. Or if not deadzone the very first few readable units to the left and right off centre being able to register as straight.

Most cars have a natural deadzone or "leeway" from the all compoments and joints between you turning the wheel and the actual tires moving anyway.. Its not the same as a game steering wheel reading directs inputs from the wheel.

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The accuracy, calibration and smoothness of your controller can make a big difference in this area too.

I have been through at least six DS controllers during the many hours of play in GT4.

Spagetti69

Thanks mate I didn't know that. Do you have to do that before every race? Could please elaborate.

Thank you.

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just floor it all the way down in a race or time trial once, and it'll stay calibrated until you turn it off. It might even work in the menus, not sure

SuperCobraJet

Steering ratios and front end geometry are a reality in racing cars, and maybe different for particular tracks and/or drivers, unless dictated by the sanctioning body. This affects how smoothly the car steers and corners as to the amount of steering input.

Off center or following dead zones are more of a game adjustment to compensate for too-much steering input per travel movement as far as easing drivability.
Particularly in a over-steery car.

In the GT4 and GT5P series this area is pretty well balanced and not adjustably (IMO) essential since you can change drivability with chassis adjustments pretty effectively.

You may have noticed in GT4, particularly in the race cars during a 24 hr race, how when a chassis refresh was needed the car would begin to stick-steer, simulating a loss of handling.



Yea the control adjustments were not properly explained which added to the difficulty of trying to use them.


All and all these adjustments do add a element of complexity and since Kaz has always done a good job balancing this they may not be needed.

Even so I'd still like to have them.





The accuracy, calibration and smoothness of your controller can make a big difference in this area too.

I have been through at least six DS controllers during the many hours of play in GT4.

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Steering ratios and suspension geometry have nothing to do with a steering deadzone.

xSNAKEx

It doesnt exactly work that way. Your blowing it out of proportion, I'm talking about very very vry minor deadzone adjustments at the centre to overcome hardware irregularties. Or if not deadzone the very first few readable units to the left and right off centre being able to register as straight.

Most cars have a natural deadzone or "leeway" from the all compoments and joints between you turning the wheel and the actual tires moving anyway.. Its not the same as a game steering wheel reading directs inputs from the wheel.

Click to expand...

So you set a predefined deadzone in the software to overcome the hardware irregularity, like they've probably done in the past. Don't make it adjustable or no-one will ever get it right.

peter_vod69

Steering ratios and suspension geometry have nothing to do with a steering deadzone.

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Not directly, but the dead zone is part of the steering.

peter_vod69

So you set a predefined deadzone in the software to overcome the hardware irregularity, like they've probably done in the past. Don't make it adjustable or no-one will ever get it right.

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I don't think it will keep anyone from getting it right, but it may take some trial and error. You can still play from default if you want and not change anything.

Its the same as setting up any other part of the car. Some drivers will prefer a tighter setting and some neutral, and some others on the loose side. Chassis adjustments add complexity too, but I certainly like to have them.

Personally I prefer all the adjustments I can get.

This game is broken for at least two people.

From the PlayStation forums:



Its a sad day when GT5 gets shelved on its release day.

Aurcom, that's a problem with the hardware, not with GT5. I had the same problem with my DFGT pedals in GT5p. Logitech's design sucks, but it's so long ago I can't remember how I nodded my pedals to fix this. It's a problem with the connection between the potentiometer and the pedal and the way it's mounted. There's too much slop in the "zero" position.

You could argue that GT5 should work around sloppily designed hardware and it would be nice if it did, but if you use crappy hardware it's hardly PD's fault.

BobElHat

Aurcom, that's a problem with the hardware, not with GT5. I had the same problem with my DFGT pedals in GT5p. Logitech's design sucks, but it's so long ago I can't remember how I nodded my pedals to fix this. It's a problem with the connection between the potentiometer and the pedal and the way it's mounted. There's too much slop in the "zero" position.

You could argue that GT5 should work around sloppily designed hardware and it would be nice if it did, but if you use crappy hardware it's hardly PD's fault.

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I've got a couple problems with that reasoning:

1. My hardware works with other games.
2. Advanced wheel settings are common place.

These are toys after all, and expecting mechanical perfection is ignorant.

These wheels are manufacturer by the tens of thousands and there is going to be natural deviations from perfection, especially after regular use. The absence of any wheel adjustments is ridiculous considering how many wheels are "supported".

Why should I be soldering resistors or new pots into my pedals when in a Codemasters' game all I do is set brake deadzone to 5%?