General LSD Settings

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Jizzum_90

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Jizzum_90
I been trying all different settings on my drift cars but the one setting that I'm struggling with is the LSD setting, can ne1 shed some light on explaining? And some general drift and race settings
 
I'm sure there are other threads on here explaining how the LSD works:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143712
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74847 (from GT4)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21967 (from GT3)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148483
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=158519
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=150653

This list goes on, I just typed LSD into the search bar

For drifting, I use:

Initial: 60
Acceleration: 60
Deceleration: 60

this will make a car understeer if not drifting
 
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IRL Drifting, most teams will weld the LSD permanently "locked" to ensure the rear axle is as rigid as possible. To mimic this in-game you will set the intial torque to the lowest setting and set the accel & decel to their maximum settings.
 
FULL_THROTTLE
More Acceleration = more power needed to make it work
More Deceleration = your car will brake in a straight line
Click to expand...

What? Errr..... wrong LOL

'Acceleration' setting determines how much the LSD locks under acceleration, 'deceleration' setting determines how much the LSD works when under deceleration, fairly simple.

In RWD drift car, you want LSD effect under accel and decel, hence it's called a 2-way diff, because it provides LSD effect i both directions, accel and decel. Equivalent setting in GT5: Initial 10, Accel 60, Decel 60

Some race RWD's use what is called a 1.5-way, which provides full LSD effect under acceleration, but only 50% of that LSD effect under breaking, which helps stop the back end breaking away on the way into corners in tail-happy cars. Equivalent setting in GT5: Initial 10, Accel 60, Decel 30

FWD's use what is called a 1-way diff which only works under acceleration, meaning that turn-in is not affected in any way. Equivalent setting in GT5: Initial 10, Accel 60, Decel 5

DKLion3s
IRL Drifting, most teams will weld the LSD permanently "locked" to ensure the rear axle is as rigid as possible. To mimic this in-game you will set the intial torque to the lowest setting and set the accel & decel to their maximum settings.
Click to expand...

Also wrong, most competition drifters use 2-way diffs as they provide the added advantage over locked diffs of being able to be 'unlocked' simply by dipping the clutch. In a welded diff, there is no way to open the diff up to give the back end grip. LOTS of people use welded diffs for practice/fun, but for comps they have SERIOUS limitations.
 
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TwinturboCH
What? Errr..... wrong LOL

'Acceleration' setting determines how much the LSD locks under acceleration, 'deceleration' setting determines how much the LSD works when under deceleration, fairly simple.
Click to expand...

If the setting for deceleration is on 60 and abs is off, the wheels lock up under heavy braking, and you slide in a straight line, more so than if the setting was on anything less

FULL_THROTTLE
Basically it stops the wheels on either side of a car turning at different speeds. On Gran Turismo 5 you have 3 settings on it, Initial torque: sets the overal amount of force before the LSD works; Acceleration: the higher this setting, the more the car will act like the go-kart; Deceleration: will slow your car down when you lift off the throttle.

Simple tuning goes, for a FR/MR/RR car set Initial torque 40-50 Acceleration 50-55 Deceleration 20-30 stops them from spinning out every time you go near the throttle.

And thats how a LSD works 👍
Click to expand...

Look another thread about the LSD

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=159452
 
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i would like a thread that discuss all about everything evolving settings when your drifting.
Like, what can you do to produce more grip to the rear when your drifting.
does camber actually give more grip while your drifting?
is it better with diff lock because both tires pull the car forwards while your drifting:increasing speed while doing a drift?

im little of a tech freak i want to know what does what and why.

and i noticed that you have more grip to tires when the car is heavy.
stock viper kicks ass many tuned japanese cars when it comes to drift battle.
so more pressure to the tarmac outweights light cars because the tires cant suply enough grip to make the weaight reduction effective.(comfort hard tires)
 
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TwinturboCH
Also wrong, most competition drifters use 2-way diffs as they provide the added advantage over pocked diffs of being able to be 'unlocked' simply by dipping the clutch. In a welded diff, there is no way to open the diff up to give the back end grip. LOTS of people use welded diffs for practice/fun, but for comps they have SERIOUS limitations.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected in the "most" aspect of my statement. However the two most popular LSDs utilized offer a similar action as a welded LSD, whereas both wheels are "locked" together for the most effective operation during drift.


WIKI Quote:

A proper mechanical limited slip differential (LSD) is almost considered essential for drifting. Attempting to drift with an open or viscous differential in a sustained slide generally yields relatively less impressive results. All other modifications are secondary to the LSD.[16] Two popular LSD brands amongst drifters are OS Giken & Cusco.

The most preferred form of LSD for drifting is the clutch type, in "2-way" form, for its consistent and aggressive lockup behavior under all conditions (acceleration and deceleration). Some drift cars use a spool "differential", which actually has no differential action at all - the wheels are locked to each other. Budget-minded drifters may use a welded differential, where the side gears are welded to give the same effect as a spool. This makes it easier to break rear traction because it reduces maximum traction in all situations except traveling in a straight line. Welded differentials have an inherent risk involved, due to the tremendous amounts of internal stress the welds may fail and the differential completely locks up leaving the rear wheels immobilized. Helical torque sensing types such as the Torsen or Quaife (available on cars in certain stock trims such as S15, FD3S, MX-5, JZA8x, UZZ3x) differentials are also adequate.

The clutches on drift cars tend to be very tough ceramic brass button or multiple-plate varieties, for durability, as well as to allow rapid "clutch kick" techniques to upset the balance of the car. Gearbox and engine mounts are often replaced with urethane or aluminum mounts, and dampers added to control the violent motion of the engine/gearbox under these conditions.

Gearsets may be replaced with closer ratios to keep the engine in the power band. These may be coarser dog engagement straight cut gears instead of synchronised helical gears, for durability and faster shifting at the expense of noise and refinement. Wealthier drifters may use sequential gearboxes to make gear selection easier/faster, while sequential shift lever adapters can be used to make shifts easier without increasing shift time.
Click to expand...

They do stipulate the inherent risk of welding.
 
FULL_THROTTLE
If the setting for deceleration is on 60 and abs is off, the wheels lock up under heavy braking, and you slide in a straight line, more so than if the setting was on anything less

Look another thread about the LSD

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=159452
Click to expand...
But your point in your quote about 'Deceleration: will slow your car down when you lift off the throttle.' is complete rubbish LOL The deceleration setting determines how much effect LSD effect is applied during deceleration, it has nothing to do with the amount of deceleration caused by the diff.



cervatoz
i would like a thread that discuss all about everything evolving settings when your drifting.
Like, what can you do to produce more grip to the rear when your drifting.
does camber actually give more grip while your drifting?
is it better with diff lock because both tires pull the car forwards while your drifting:increasing speed while doing a drift?

im little of a tech freak i want to know what does what and why.

and i noticed that you have more grip to tires when the car is heavy.
stock viper kicks ass many tuned japanese cars when it comes to drift battle.
so more pressure to the tarmac outweights light cars because the tires cant suply enough grip to make the weaight reduction effective.(comfort hard tires)
Click to expand...
It'll take me a LONG time to explain it all, but I'll give it a go a bit later :)

DKLion3s
I stand corrected in the "most" aspect of my statement. However the two most popular LSDs utilized offer a similar action as a welded LSD, whereas both wheels are "locked" together for the most effective operation during drift.

WIKI Quote:

They do stipulate the inherent risk of welding.
Click to expand...
Firstly, yes, the optimum setting when on throttle is to have the diff completely locked.

HOWEVER, the limitation of a welded diff is that, with a 2-way plated diff, when the car reaches maximum angle and maximum steering lock, when you are just on the verge of going too far, you can dip the clutch, open the diff and give the rear end extra grip, thus preventing a spin. With a welded diff (also sometimes referred to as a 'mig diff') you don't have this option, and therefore, in any given car, the optimum performance with a welded diff or spool diff (which has the same effect but is designed to never slip from the start and was initially developed for drag racing) is less than with a 2-way.

Secondly, that article, as with everything on Wikipedia, is slightly inaccurate. When done properly, a mig diff has no inherant risks from breakage, in fact, I know of some high power cars which have had issues with constantly breaking 2-way diffs (due to high shock loads as the diff locks, we're talking 900+bhp here) and so have switched to welded ones with much greater success in the reliablility steaks.

However, there are risks from using a welded diff.
The first is fairly easy to overcome, and that is the fact that a welded diff will cause initial turn-in understeer during normal driving. This is because both rear wheels HAVE to travel at the same speed, so try to push the front end on into the corner, much the same as what happens when you drive a kart at low speeds. The plus side of this is that it teaches you to balance the car properly, because if you don't, you'll crash LOL

The second issue, which is slightly more difficult to overcome, is that once a diff has been welded, it is usually MASSIVELY out of balance because of the big balls of weld holding all the gears together. This means that high speed runs are out of the question as spinning the diff at those speeds will cause big vibrations which could shake the diff apart. However, when I say high speed, I'm talking about 160+mph. My 4-door R32 (with a welded diff) does 140mph all day long with only a barely noticable judder from the rear, and because the diff is welded, is great fun to drift, however, my 2-door R32, which has a 2-way Nismo diff, will hold much bigger angle without spinning, and yet will still hit 180+ without any drama.
 
TwinturboCH
My 4-door R32 (with a welded diff) does 140mph all day long with only a barely noticable judder from the rear, and because the diff is welded, is great fun to drift, however, my 2-door R32, which has a 2-way Nismo diff, will hold much bigger angle without spinning, and yet will still hit 180+ without any drama.
Click to expand...

Any chance you'd be willing to share your real life setups and break it down a bit, explaining why things are the way they are? I know how to address setup factor by factor (except for spring rate..), but I always have a hard time bringing it all together.

Lots of people are offering setups that go to unrealistic extremes, exploiting certain issues that GT5 doesn't address. I'm interested in learning more about tuning that is applicable to reality, and would much rather fully understand the process rather than using a setup someone else worked out and not even knowing exactly what it's doing.
 
TwinturboCH, your elaboration is quite commendable and appreciated. Although I do focus on the operative terms in your post. I.E. "done properly" & "slightly".

We do agree on the rigidity factor of the LSD & suspension settings, with regards to breaking the rear-axle loose more efficiently for drifting. Nice post! 👍
 
TakeshiSkunk
Any chance you'd be willing to share your real life setups and break it down a bit, explaining why things are the way they are? I know how to address setup factor by factor (except for spring rate..), but I always have a hard time bringing it all together.

Lots of people are offering setups that go to unrealistic extremes, exploiting certain issues that GT5 doesn't address. I'm interested in learning more about tuning that is applicable to reality, and would much rather fully understand the process rather than using a setup someone else worked out and not even knowing exactly what it's doing.
Click to expand...
No worries, like I said, I';ll go into more depth later when I have some time, but it's going to take a while to write it all down LOL

DKLion3s
TwinturboCH, your elaboration is quite commendable and appreciated. Although I do focus on the operative terms in your post. I.E. "done properly" & "slightly".

We do agree on the rigidity factor of the LSD & suspension settings, with regards to breaking the rear-axle loose more efficiently for drifting. Nice post! 👍
Click to expand...

When I say 'done properly' i mean by a mechanic who can weld, not some random guy with a welder. I know probably in excess of a hundred people running welded diffs, and only one has ever failed, and that is because the owner welded it himself, hence fail LOL And by 'slightly' I mean that most of it is correct, but the bit about the risks of 'migging' a diff are pretty much wrong :)
 
TwinturboCH
No worries, like I said, I';ll go into more depth later when I have some time, but it's going to take a while to write it all down LOL
Click to expand...

Excellent, I'd really appreciate that! Take your time, it's not like you owe us anything lol

Definitely glad to have you around the drifting forum :)
 
TwinturboCH
When I say 'done properly' i mean by a mechanic who can weld, not some random guy with a welder. I know probably in excess of a hundred people running welded diffs, and only one has ever failed, and that is because the owner welded it himself, hence fail LOL And by 'slightly' I mean that most of it is correct, but the bit about the risks of 'migging' a diff are pretty much wrong :)
Click to expand...

I did not mis-understood your post. I just stated that, that's where my focus is. You're in good standing. 👍 And by the way, a good DIYer can be just as professional, and I am not disagreeing with you. 👍

The risks inherent with welding, as stated by WIKI, has little to do with the skill level of the individual, and more likely placed on the materials' structural integrity.


EDIT:

My first post in response to LSD settings for dirfting in game was done in a consise and simplified manner to accommodate the fact I was at work. Most of my musings on this site is done in similar fashion, while I'm at work.

Firstly, TwinturboCH, welding the LSD does not in any manner disables the function of clutch operation to seperate the forces of torque & power to the welded LSD, it is still very much usable, only in a more direct manner. Hence it takes a little more finese and caution in popping the clutch during a controlled drift, easing onto the clutch during too much slip will still amount to gaining more traction, as the torque will no longer be transferred when the clutch is depressed, hence allowing the wheels to gain traction.

I merely stated the welding aspect as a simplified way of getting the point across as to the settings in game, and that's directly in reference to game settings. By setting the intial torque value to it's lowest setting this allows, in game, the mimicing of an almost always engaged LSD. Then in addition, by setting the accel & decel to their maximum, this will mimic the duration that the LSD will be engaged during game simulation of a locked LSD.

GT does not differentiate between various types of LSDs (manufacturer specs), Springs, Struts, Shock Absorbers, Tyre sizes, etc. So I did not feel the need at the time to get overly detailed with regards to settings and components.

Also I quoted WIKI, because it was easier than me typing a whole book, while at work. Which would have definitely brought unwanted attention to my work station.
 
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DKLion3s
Firstly, TwinturboCH, welding the LSD does not in any manner disables the function of clutch operation to seperate the forces of torque & power to the welded LSD, it is still very much usable, only in a more direct manner. Hence it takes a little more finese and caution in popping the clutch during a controlled drift, easing onto the clutch during too much slip will still amount to gaining more traction, as the torque will no longer be transferred when the clutch is depressed, hence allowing the wheels to gain traction.
Click to expand...

Yes you can still 'gain traction' but the fact is still that there is no way to 'unlock' a welded diff, therefore has limitations over a 2-waywhich will ALWAYS be able to generate more grip in certain situations, like at the point of being about to spin.

DKLion3s
I merely stated the welding aspect as a simplified way of getting the point across as to the settings in game, and that's directly in reference to game settings. By setting the intial torque value to it's lowest setting this allows, in game, the mimicing of an almost always engaged LSD. Then in addition, by setting the accel & decel to their maximum, this will mimic the duration that the LSD will be engaged during game simulation of a locked LSD.
Click to expand...

That's fine, I was criticising you or anything, I was just correcting a couple of points as that's how myths etc form. I was simply correcting a couple of minor errors, such as the statement that most people use welded diffs in competition, which plainly and simply isn't true, and the fact the welded diffs can perform as well as 2-ways.

DKLion3s
Also I quoted WIKI, because it was easier than me typing a whole book, while at work. Which would have definitely brought unwanted attention to my work station.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but only quote wiki when you know the FACTS, and then only quote the bits that are correct, don't just quote wiki because it's 80% accurate, because then people will be learning the 20% that is incorrect as well. Easiest thing is to just delete the bits that are incorrect when quoting wiki articles.
 
When the clutch is diss-engaged on a car with a welded diff both wheels are still locked together so it still really wont allow any turning effect other than the car slowing down a little/slight weight transfer away from the rear and the front wheels getting more grip. Whereas with a LSD, once all torque is unloaded on the input shaft, the diff is completely opened and the car is essentially allowed to free-wheel and turn freely without the rear wheels fighting against it.

Alot of Irish drifters use welded diffs and probably all the competition cars in pro-drift use them without any trouble with breaking etc but most top competition cars in the world are using proper LSDs.

I've welded a good few diffs on cars and there was never any problems with them and probably could think of a good few more LSDs breaking than welded diffs to be honest but alot of the reason some LSDs break too is that they are not set up properly when fitting in terms of lash and mesh contact etc.


I was going to use a welded diff on my drift car but decided against it as I have a nice large case 3.91 LSD from an M5 that I can rebuild myself upto 75% and put extra plates into it. Plus the fact a proper LSD sounds alot less hatchet than a mig-spec one :P
 
Lweed-
So guys for drifting with a controller, is 10/60/60 for diff settings the good way to go ? I was usualy using 60/60/60
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60/60/60 is what you want if you're looking to completely lock the rear end. Initial Torque is the base locking force applied to the diff. Like...even if there is no external force applied to the diff at all and the car is just sitting still, that force is being exerted to lock the wheels.

DaveM-sport
When the clutch is diss-engaged on a car with a welded diff both wheels are still locked together so it still really wont allow any turning effect other than the car slowing down a little/slight weight transfer away from the rear and the front wheels getting more grip. Whereas with a LSD, once all torque is unloaded on the input shaft, the diff is completely opened and the car is essentially allowed to free-wheel and turn freely without the rear wheels fighting against it.
Click to expand...

I think some diagrams of LSDs in this thread would go a long way to helping people understand the mechanics of one. The first time I saw one everything just made sense immediately.
 
Yeah, I suppose it's very easy to talk about LSDs when you know how they work and it all can go right over the head of alot of people that don't know much about it unless shown how it works by lookking at a half disassembled diff in front of them or good diagrams or animations.

The howstuffworks site has some very good sections showing the ins and outs of diffs.

If I get a chance later on I'll post up some info with links and things to animations and go through how a diff can be made tigther with higher locking rates in acceleration/deceleration etc and how it's achieved by altering pre-load and ramps.
 
TwinturboCH
Basically, 5/60/60 is a 2-way, 60/60/60 is a welded.
Click to expand...

Correction, 5/60/60 is welded (ie. locked after 5 ft/lbs of initial torque) , 60/60/60 is 2-way (ie. locked after 60 ft/lbs of initial torque).

In otherwards, if there is 300 ft/lbs of torque available in the case of the lesser initial torque, the LSD will be locked at 5 ft/lbs and will stay locked for 295 ft/lbs if driver floors it.

In the second senario with also 300 ft/lbs of torque, prior to 60 ft/lbs of torque the LSD is free wheeling (left & right) until that pressure of 60 is reached. Then it will be locked for 240 ft/lbs, if floored.

This operation is consistent with dragging, drifting and cornering.
 
I've seen TT drifting online, and I will trust anything he posts, if he tells me that the Honda Prelude was the best drift car, I would buy it...just saying
 
DKLion3s
Correction, 5/60/60 is welded (ie. locked after 5 ft/lbs of initial torque) , 60/60/60 is 2-way (ie. locked after 60 ft/lbs of initial torque).

In otherwards, if there is 300 ft/lbs of torque available in the case of the lesser initial torque, the LSD will be locked at 5 ft/lbs and will stay locked for 295 ft/lbs if driver floors it.

In the second senario with also 300 ft/lbs of torque, prior to 60 ft/lbs of torque the LSD is free wheeling (left & right) until that pressure of 60 is reached. Then it will be locked for 240 ft/lbs, if floored.

This operation is consistent with dragging, drifting and cornering.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you're uh...wrong. You have this backwards. Just go try it in game...if you can't tell what a locked diff feels like then you need more time behind the wheel :X
 

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