If only PD had...

Dude, don't worry about people freaking out about you complaining about GT4's tuner garages. Day after day I try to explain to people that GT4 is far from the most realistic driving game under the sun, yet I haven't been shunned by this forum yet...

And I agree that the tuner garages are pretty useless...the only thing I ever use them for is tuner cars (I bought the HPA R32 early on in my game because it's a bargain superhatch) 👍

I agree about the tuner garage there is really no point to it.

does seem a bit strange hey ftb :/
stickers would have made it worth while. oh well, even if everything is the same in the tuner garage as the "makes garage" you can at least say you blitz tuned it... not quite the same tho is it.
maybe the tuner garage is only meant to be a platform to launch the tuner cars and the parts are just a by-product of that?

Still they could have at least make the cars sound like tunners. After you tune it.

Now that I think about it, they really could have done more on the tuner garages(i.e. racing modification, more upgrades) but, as we know, they didn't.

Wolfe2x7

Day after day I try to explain to people that GT4 is far from the most realistic driving game under the sun, yet I haven't been shunned by this forum yet...

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We just like you too much (and some of us know you're right).

ving

does seem a bit strange hey ftb :/
stickers would have made it worth while. oh well, even if everything is the same in the tuner garage as the "makes garage" you can at least say you blitz tuned it... not quite the same tho is it.
maybe the tuner garage is only meant to be a platform to launch the tuner cars and the parts are just a by-product of that?

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I think that was the whole point. But I can say I was horribly disappointed when I went to tuner village and realized that the power I got from the non-stage 5 upgrades was the same, and that I didn't even get a "Blitz" or "HKS" sticker for any of them (or even just a note on the info-screen), I was seriously pissed.

eh, I wasnt. I mean erally in the big scheme of things the tuners village rarely even gets visited by me. Like I just race the cars around the tracks and do a little tuning here and there, I dont care where it comes from....

when you say "seriously pissed" did you grab the ps2 and trow it or move on? would mildly annoyed be more appropriate?

ving

eh, I wasnt. I mean erally in the big scheme of things the tuners village rarely even gets visited by me. Like I just race the cars around the tracks and do a little tuning here and there, I dont care where it comes from....

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Have you ever considered that if there was more to do in the tuner village, with more options, choices and tuning, you'd probably be visiting it a lot more?

Or to put it another way, a library with 20 choice of book, isn't going to be visited as regularly as say one with 2,000...

I say it again... it's a missed opportunity... one I hope they put right in GT5...

yeah ftb, I totaly agree. pd could have put more effort into it and probably only put the tuners in cause they conributed $$$ towards development, I just think the way some people put the words hate, despise, seriously pised off in thier post describing thier feelings towards pd's decision is maybe a little overboard... dont you think so? I mean, I am picturing these really irrate fustrated people grabbing their ps2s and in a screaming rage throwin them with all their might at the nearest wall becuase why?... pd gave thier favoutire car a crappy piant job? made the handling physics for the mainstream so the game would sell, or indeed put in a useless tuner villiage because these companies who contributed demanded to be represented in some way.

read the posts yourself. dont you get the feeling that these people absolutely dispise pd for ruining both the game and thier lives?
maybe they are not expressing thier feelings properly and things are quite as bad as they seem.

ps: being a librarian or 10 years i know its the quality of the stock that counts and not the quantity

niky

We just like you too much (and some of us know you're right).

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I figured that'd get some attention, at least from you...

ving

I am picturing these really irrate fustrated people grabbing their ps2s and in a screaming rage throwin them with all their might at the nearest wall becuase why?... pd gave thier favoutire car a crappy piant job? made the handling physics for the mainstream so the game would sell, or indeed put in a useless tuner villiage because these companies who contributed demanded to be represented in some way.

Click to expand...

I can't hate PD for giving my favorite car a bad paint job, because PD didn't include my favorite car. And I wouldn't normally expect PD to include my favorite car, just because that'd be self-centered of me. However, what PD did do is include the direct rival of my favorite car (190E 2.5-16 Evo II), while ignoring my favorite car (E30 M3), and including a needless amount of variants of the modern equivalent of my favorite car (E46 M3, E46 M3 CSL, E46 M3 GTR road version, E46 M3 GTR).

I don't hate PD for making a game with unrealistic physics; I hate them making a game with unrealistic physics that aren't fun, and for outright lying about it...



As for the tuner village, the companies could have been represented as mere "dealers" from which you could buy the tuner cars and nothing more.

ving

ps: being a librarian or 10 years i know its the quality of the stock that counts and not the quantity

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I hope you didn't mean to defend GT4 using that motto....

oh, ur afunny bugger

portraying the tuning companies as car dealerships wouldnt have made those companies very happy tho. they sell parts to tune cars with.
say it aint so...

I treat the tuner village like the skylines... I just ignore that part of the game

@Wolfe: Obviously.

It would just be so nice, though... if you could apply "tuner-only" parts to just about every car in the game... might make it worth something.

Agreed, brethren. Pointless, but yet another feature they should expand upon in GT5. 💡

Fade to Black

(even a subtle BLITZ decal on the cars side would have been nice!)

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damn straight, and we all know that's an extra 5rwkw per sticker!

Brock5000

damn straight, and we all know that's an extra 5rwkw per sticker!

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That's just with the BLITZ ones. V-TEC and Type-R stickers add 100hp each!

Good Thread

Well I think these options would have been useful in the tuners section.

Decals selection
Extra levels of tuning

Also the only tuning available at tuners section should be the tuning they provide and it should only highlight yellow if it can be done to a specific car and if these tuning options are different from the manufacturer section. (nobody wants to sit there and go through all the tuners to see if there is anything different from the manufactures options)

I believe in the future this is the section where bodykits, exhaust tips, bonnet scoops/vents, tyres and wheels should be bought from and it should be called GT Tuners.

GT Auto should be changed to GT Services and have a very wide range of paint colours, changing of all fluids, car wash, and a rolling road dyno with accurate figures, plus a car settings section where all the adjustable parts can be configured. Oh and if damage will be included in GT5 it should be the place where repairs are performed.

Yes this is yet another missed opportunity of a great new feature but that's just basically GT4, what could have been . It's done now and if they don't release a GT4 SE or VGT on PS3 it will be a damn shame.

There's a list of about 10 features that were possible on the PS2 hardware that should have been included in GT4 and if they were this would have been the best GT ever but as it stands it's the worst. Still there's nothing out there as good as GT, from the original to GT4 so I guess we'll just have to live with it mate.

Cobra_UK

but as it stands it's the worst

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I could not disagree more with this statement.

However, regarding this issue at hand... Tuning and whatnot...

Yes, they really dropped the ball on this element of game play.
However, I have more to complain about that what you all have said so far.

Not to say I deserve to complain, but...

One thing that bothers me more than any other element of this topic is the horrible use of brand names.

What I mean by that is this...
PD had the chance to use some of the best names in the tuning world and didn't use them.

Amongst our currently availible companies you see many that don't have the representation they should.

Several of the companies have several full models that aren't included (like the Amuse Supra).
Beyond that, some companies in the game get no love at all (like Advan).
Also, some companies out there were just ignored (like Jun).

All in all I am disappointed but not dis-satisfied.

Sure they messed up on some stuff but they still did one hell of a great job overall.

👎 👍

In either case,

(atleast for trying)

But for real, it's almost like PD has never heard of Best Motoring or taken the time to watch their show.
Maybe just doing that will give them an idea of what we want!

Kent

Cobra_UK

as it stands it's the worst

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could not disagree more with this statement.

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Really? Well let me enlighten you mate.

First GT to not allow garage cars in 2 player mode (apart from Europe).

First GT to not allow the full screen of 2 player race replays and to not allow these replays to be saved.

Still has the some bugs and glitches that haven't been fixed since GT or GT2 and quite a few new ones also.

Still misses features that have been demanded by fans since the very first GT, like car flipping, 2 player drag racing, track skidmarks, and others. (all possible on the PS2 hardware)

Failed on promises of Online mode and has a very limited and ropey LAN mode (Of course we lost the direct 2 PS2 link which worked faultlessly).

Failed in it's promise of 3D spectators (only some spectators on some tracks are 3D while the rest are still cardboad 2D).

Basically GT4 has brilliant graphics, improved but still ropey physics and 750+ extra cars and a few more tracks. Sound and AI are just as bad, some pointless or poorly implemented features included, and that's it! Oh and I'd just like to say that GT games were always fun to play for a long time because of the 2 player factor which was completely ruined in GT4 and I know people that have finished GT4 in single player and have gone back to GT3 for it's 2 player longevity. Sure it kills them to miss out on the better graphics, new cars and tracks, plus improved physics but such is life.

Don't get me wrong, nothing touches the GT games and I own GT4 and play it regularly but I'm telling the truth. I even bought a PS2 just to play GT4 but that still doesn't change the facts. If I was in charge of PD I'd be embarrassed to release GT4 after 4 years of work in the state it's in...

Cobra_UK

Really? Well let me enlighten you mate.

First GT to not allow garage cars in 2 player mode (apart from Europe).

First GT to not allow the full screen of 2 player race replays and to not allow these replays to be saved.

Still has the some bugs and glitches that haven't been fixed since GT or GT2 and quite a few new ones also.

Still misses features that have been demanded by fans since the very first GT, like car flipping, 2 player drag racing, track skidmarks, and others. (all possible on the PS2 hardware)

Failed on promises of Online mode and has a very limited and ropey LAN mode (Of course we lost the direct 2 PS2 link which worked faultlessly).

Failed in it's promise of 3D spectators (only some spectators on some tracks are 3D while the rest are still cardboad 2D).

Basically GT4 has brilliant graphics, improved but still ropey physics and 750+ extra cars and a few more tracks. Sound and AI are just as bad, some pointless or poorly implemented features included, and that's it! Oh and I'd just like to say that GT games were always fun to play for a long time because of the 2 player factor which was completely ruined in GT4 and I know people that have finished GT4 in single player and have gone back to GT3 for it's 2 player longevity. Sure it kills them to miss out on the better graphics, new cars and tracks, plus improved physics but such is life.

Don't get me wrong, nothing touches the GT games and I own GT4 and play it regularly but I'm telling the truth. I even bought a PS2 just to play GT4 but that still doesn't change the facts. If I was in charge of PD I'd be embarrassed to release GT4 after 4 years of work in the state it's in...

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I agree with you 100% on everything you've said about GT4's shortcomings, but I disagree with your statement that "nothing touches the GT games." I won't go into much detail here because I think niky would thwap me over the head with a baseball bat, but you should check out Enthusia. Less cars (but with no repeats, and plenty of cars GT4 missed), about the same number of tracks (but only 2 of them are real), about the same number of goofy game design choices, but much, much more realistic driving physics. It has its own forum here on GTPlanet.

Also, if you own a decently powerful PC, there's always Live for Speed, among other sims.......

Less repeats of cars sounds like a valid ting, but GT is about the history of automobiles, so they aren't going to have less repeats. What is needed are more american cars too, ligenfelter's, hennessey's, Saleen you know what i mean. Less repeats are not even an option. No two cars are a like, may look similar but each has it's own significance, if PD can also acquire some more exotic manufacturers then that would be great as well, but not really a big thing for me. I can see GT5 having 700-1000 cars, simple fact they have a much more powerful rendering machine in PS3 and 722 car data they already have.

As much as GT4 has it's faults, there is no way I'm playing GT3 over it. Nür is one reason, plus the imaculately better car behavior(not every car can grip the road like glue), the LMP's, the fact that you can add downforce to your cars. Sorry but GT3 is way lagging compared to GT4, sure the lan play sucks, but I don't play GT4 with others, and admittedly GT4 wasn't made with multiplayer in mind, the Japanese GT4 has no two player mode. Kaz has said that the online structure for GT has been completed,and surely it will be built into GT5 so online will be a part of the racing, only thing is to see what they have been working on. More cars, and bring back every car model that was in all the previous GT games.

Cobra_UK

Really? Well let me enlighten you mate...

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You make a good argument but I believe personal opinions would easily create a point and counter-point argument that would in essence have no "correct" answer.

To simply express myself though- GT4 is not the worst GT.

I don't think there is a "worst" gt game.
Where do we even start in a comparison?
Sorry, I shouldn't laugh.

I suppose GT 1 & 2 are not comparable to 3 & 4?
That would be my first thought in the process.

Then account for change of release dates between each member of the now seperated grading clusters.
After that I would probably look into the issues brought up- responding to consumer demand, innovation, simulation, etc...
Then evaluate the games individually to find flaws and individual qualities about each.
Finally, I would consider naming a worst of the series.

However, even with my experience on all 4 major american gt games, I am hesitant to say I can name "the worst."

The best I could do right now is say that I have better graphics and more cars than I have had in any preivous game.
Also, the inclusion of "World Circuits" was a big thing for me- I can't get enough of those tracks (way better than most of the originals ).

So, with that said, I suppose I like GT4 quite a bit.
The actual GT experience feels better to me in many ways.

There are still areas I'm not happy about.
But I try to deal with them as well as I can. For example...

The subject of this thread- Tuner Hall.
While I am not happy about the overall application of the concept, I am pleased to see that PD is working on the subject and putting the idea into their games.

Tuner Hall is lacking. I said that from the start.
However, tuner hall is also a great way to include the individual makers who were not so numerous in previous games.

Maybe GT5 will improve it, maybe not.

Point is...
Tuner Hall = Good Idea = Weak Results

Let's keep to the topic.
Also, Cobra UK,
I don't think the "Really? Well let me enlighten you mate" came across as you intended (atleast I hope not).

My "let me enlighten you mate" was neither rude or condescending. Like a friendly explantion, but of course it depends hon how you took it. If I'm saying it to you and you see me smiling it would be easier to understand how to take it.

You're right about one thing, for you GT4 works well enough for you to live with it's shortcomings. I'm glad for you. With me to be honest it's the same, I play GT4, I like it but it certainly leaves a lot to be desired in my case.

Sorry to go off-topic, by the way. I don't like it when it happends to my threads so apologies ftb.

Wolfe2x7

I agree with you 100% on everything you've said about GT4's shortcomings, but I disagree with your statement that "nothing touches the GT games." I won't go into much detail here because I think niky would thwap me over the head with a baseball bat, but you should check out Enthusia. Less cars (but with no repeats, and plenty of cars GT4 missed), about the same number of tracks (but only 2 of them are real), about the same number of goofy game design choices, but much, much more realistic driving physics. It has its own forum here on GTPlanet.

Also, if you own a decently powerful PC, there's always Live for Speed, among other sims.......

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Oh mate of course I have Enthusia, I bought it as soon as I looked at a screenshot of the BMW E30 M3, that car is sex on wheels.

Enthusia is a great game but I prefer GT4 because there's just so much more to do in it.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

well this thread is too civil for my liking. I am off to find a violent one

Cobra_UK

Oh mate of course I have Enthusia, I bought it as soon as I looked at a screenshot of the BMW E30 M3, that car is sex on wheels.

Enthusia is a great game but I prefer GT4 because there's just so much more to do in it.

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You're not the only one who was eagerly anticipating being able to drive the E30 M3... *points down to his sig*

I personally feel that GT4's faults in the physics and handling department are too much for the course and car selection to remedy. I'd rather drift around a fake course than struggle to get a car to do what I want on a real course.

SavageEvil

Less repeats of cars sounds like a valid ting, but GT is about the history of automobiles, so they aren't going to have less repeats. What is needed are more american cars too, ligenfelter's, hennessey's, Saleen you know what i mean. Less repeats are not even an option. No two cars are a like, may look similar but each has it's own significance, if PD can also acquire some more exotic manufacturers then that would be great as well, but not really a big thing for me. I can see GT5 having 700-1000 cars, simple fact they have a much more powerful rendering machine in PS3 and 722 car data they already have.

Click to expand...

I don't think having 50 Skylines and 30 FD RX-7s is "history." I would call that "laziness" or "car count bloating." A close friend of mine is a Skyline and rotary-engine fanatic, yet he's appalled that PD felt the need to include so many small variations of them.

GT4's car selection is just another strange, awkwardly-executed move by PD (similar to the tuner garages that this topic is about), in an attempt to boost the car count. I know exactly what they were thinking, too...

Kazunori: "Everyone complained that GT3 didn't have enough cars! WE NEED MORE CARS! MORE!!"
Programmer: "Um, but the disc doesn't have enough space on it..."
Kazunori: "Don't worry, we can just down-grade other things, like the 2-player. And stop working on the online multiplayer! We don't need that!"
*a few days later*
Programmer: "Ok, do we have enough cars yet?"
Kazunori: "What's this? Only one R34 Skyline? They made, like 20 different versions of that! Put all of them in!"
Programmer: "But those versions didn't look any different from each other, and the performance was nearly the same..."
Kazunori: "Which means that the disc space would be affected how...?"
Programmer: "Ah. I see..."

Off-Topic
Honestly, I don't think the physics in Enthusia are any better. As good as GT4 (in different ways) and neither games have perfect physics anyway. I bought Enthusia because it had some cars I really like and not have in GT4. I also liked the dynamic lighting and weather and was under the impression there were no cardboard 2D spectators (well no spectators at all) and the tyre's volumetric shape could change. So all in all quite different from GT and looked promising. The reality is not bad at all and if it wasn't for the 2D spectators and the stupid way in which cars are obtained or tuned it would be a fantastic game, maybe even a GT challenger. I will probably sell Enthusia because I simply don't have the time for such a hard game, unfortunately. The only way I'd consider keeping it would be if I had a cheat to have all the cars and all the tracks and the tuning settings and this would be purely for 2 player mode.

On-Topic
GT4 is definitely not a refined game, it’s not a game where quality over quantity is more important, it’s not a game of much integrity either (the Nike car promotion stunt, playing to the tune of the car manufacturers and not the players, etc). GT4 is however a game of poor QA (quality assurance), failed promises, car “padding”, questionable features and disinterest in player’s wishes. But it’s a great formula and until another game is released that does it better than GT I’m going to play GT. Yes Forza Motorsport is similar but it's not better. Maybe Forza Motorsport 2 will have more to offer.

Tuner Hall is another example of the whole GT4 dilemma. Yes it wasn’t very well implemented, yes it leaves a lot to be desired, but I’m still happy it was implemented because I get to play with some great official tuner cars.

Cobra_UK

Honestly, I don't think the physics in Enthusia are any better. As good as GT4 (in different ways) and neither games have perfect physics anyway. I bought Enthusia because it had some cars I really like and not have in GT4. I also liked the dynamic lighting and weather and was under the impression there were no cardboard 2D spectators (well no spectators at all) and the tyre's volumetric shape could change. So all in all quite different from GT and looked promising. The reality is not bad at all and if it wasn't for the 2D spectators and the stupid way in which cars are obtained or tuned it would be a fantastic game, maybe even a GT challenger. I will probably sell Enthusia because I simply don't have the time for such a hard game, unfortunately. The only way I'd consider keeping it would be if I had a cheat to have all the cars and all the tracks and the tuning settings and this would be purely for 2 player mode.

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Here's the way I see it; I've been playing racing games for my entire life, and I have lots of experience with Live for Speed. I have been only driving for a few years now, but I enjoy romping about country roads, and drifting in the rain and snow. I understand how pretty much every component on a car works, and I understand the physics behind those components, and how they affect the car. In other words, I have a fairly well-developed sense of how a car should behave.

Enthusia's driving characteristics are very similar to Live for Speed, which is impressive, and the game's physics make total sense to me. When I'm playing Enthusia (or Live for Speed), I don't feel "disconnected," I feel as though I'm really driving a car, and the cars do exactly what I tell them to. If they don't, then I know exactly why, and what mistake I made. When playing either of these games, I find myself drifting a lot, not because I said to myself "ok, this race I'm going to drift," and not because I had to "set up my car for drifting" (the most overrated idea that the GT series has perpetuated... ), but just because it's easy to do, and it's just plain fun. Just like real life.

GT4 is very frustrating for me. The cars float about, artificially rotating while following a rail, and don't feel anything like cars. GT3 had this problem twicefold, and PD tried to fix it by adding massive nose dive under braking, and tweaking the body roll simulation. All that did was make every car in the game feel like a Land-Yacht. I tell a car to do something in GT4, and it just doesn't listen. It replies with unexplainably severe understeer, or way-too-long, drawn-out open diff wheelspin (on cars with LSDs...), or over-sensitive countersteer, or a sheer unwillingness to rotate...this doesn't mean I can't keep the cars on track -- if I compensate for the strange car behavior, I can force the cars around the tracks in respectable times without going off-course. But it's just not fun.

(By the way, if you're wanting all of the tracks and cars in Enthusia; tracks are unlocked in Enthusia Life, but cars (for free race, two-player, etc.) are unlocked in Driving Revolution, or Free Race itself. In those two modes, unlocking cars is much easier than in Enthusia Life.)

Cobra_UK

GT4 is definitely not a refined game, it’s not a game where quality over quantity is more important, it’s not a game of much integrity either (the Nike car promotion stunt, playing to the tune of the car manufacturers and not the players, etc). GT4 is however a game of poor QA (quality assurance), failed promises, car “padding”, questionable features and disinterest in player’s wishes.

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Very well said... 👍

Cobra_UK

But it’s a great formula and until another game is released that does it better than GT I’m going to play GT. Yes Forza Motorsport is similar but it's not better. Maybe Forza Motorsport 2 will have more to offer.

Tuner Hall is another example of the whole GT4 dilemma. Yes it wasn’t very well implemented, yes it leaves a lot to be desired, but I’m still happy it was implemented because I get to play with some great official tuner cars.

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Forza Motorsport is one of the worst racing games ever made. Ever. GT3 is even better than it. Sure, Forza has the visual as well as mechanical customization, as well as online multiplayer, but the car selection is uninspired, the real-life tracks were rendered horrendously inaccurately (especially the Nürburgring), the graphics look more like a rushed-out-the-door X-BOX tech demo than a polished game, and the physics seem like they were designed by a monkey with a diaper on its head. All of the "number crunching" the game brags about and allows you to watch is a farce.

On-topic:

Um...how much more is there for us to say about the Tuner Hall, anyway...??

Good idea + terrible execution = a near waste of effort and disc space

Wolfe2x7

Here's the way I see it; I've been playing racing games for my entire life, and I have lots of experience with Live for Speed. I have been only driving for a few years now, but I enjoy romping about country roads, and drifting in the rain and snow. I understand how pretty much every component on a car works, and I understand the physics behind those components, and how they affect the car. In other words, I have a fairly well-developed sense of how a car should behave.

Click to expand...

That helps you out a lot with driving that's for sure, i need to spend more time driving on rural roads.

Wolfe2x7

Enthusia's driving characteristics are very similar to Live for Speed, which is impressive, and the game's physics make total sense to me. When I'm playing Enthusia (or Live for Speed), I don't feel "disconnected," I feel as though I'm really driving a car, and the cars do exactly what I tell them to. If they don't, then I know exactly why, and what mistake I made. When playing either of these games, I find myself drifting a lot, not because I said to myself "ok, this race I'm going to drift," and not because I had to "set up my car for drifting" (the most overrated idea that the GT series has perpetuated... ), but just because it's easy to do, and it's just plain fun. Just like real life.

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Im sure that actual drift racing, they don't set up the cars to drift , you can drift any car, in GT4 without doing a damn thing to it. I've done it, and it's usually if i go into a corner too hot, but that really isn't much drift. The drifting setup is meant for consistent and long showy drifts, normal cars don't really do that unless you are some sort of drifting god.

Wolfe2x7

GT4 is very frustrating for me. The cars float about, artificially rotating while following a rail, and don't feel anything like cars. GT3 had this problem twicefold, and PD tried to fix it by adding massive nose dive under braking, and tweaking the body roll simulation. All that did was make every car in the game feel like a Land-Yacht. I tell a car to do something in GT4, and it just doesn't listen. It replies with unexplainably severe understeer, or way-too-long, drawn-out open diff wheelspin (on cars with LSDs...), or over-sensitive countersteer, or a sheer unwillingness to rotate...this doesn't mean I can't keep the cars on track -- if I compensate for the strange car behavior, I can force the cars around the tracks in respectable times without going off-course. But it's just not fun.

Click to expand...

You are still playing GT4 with a DS2, I told you something is not right with that thing, just yesterday I was playing with the DS2, now no idea how well u are supposed to translate wheel steer into a DS2, but it sucks. It's over sensitive, which is why i urge you to use the DFP. You can say that why would the interface make a difference, ummm....do you drive your car with a vise-grip on the column and use that to steer with, no. As GT continues to evolve, controllers will begin to show their inadequacies. Konami either did a great job translating steering wheel movements into Enthusia or PD just gave the DFP more preference over the DS2.

Wolfe2x7

Forza Motorsport is one of the worst racing games ever made. Ever. GT3 is even better than it. Sure, Forza has the visual as well as mechanical customization, as well as online multiplayer, but the car selection is uninspired, the real-life tracks were rendered horrendously inaccurately (especially the Nürburgring), the graphics look more like a rushed-out-the-door X-BOX tech demo than a polished game, and the physics seem like they were designed by a monkey with a diaper on its head. All of the "number crunching" the game brags about and allows you to watch is a farce.

Click to expand...

Oh my, did you say GT3 is better than Forza? Well for one thinks Forza is a pretty good game, a little on the boring side, but it's a good effort. It's does have it's weird quirks, like constant skidding no matter how cleanly you turn corners, tracks that are off in scale and accuracy. The problem is the physics and the tire physics have issues with one another, and vehicles don't feel as if they belong on the courses. But all in all it's pretty enjoyable, i like their tuning options to a point. Still play it when im bored, and to use ferrari F355.

I can't argue with you on Enthusia, haven't played it. the RPG type of gameplay made me step back. Might give it a go, to see how well their physics pans out. But i can't agree with GT3 being better than Forza at all. You talk about you drifting, but on rural roads, in the rain and on snow. All of which reduce tire adhesion to the road, therefore making drifting easier, than if it were on a dry street or special compound race course.

Wolfe2x7

Here's the way I see it; I've been playing racing games for my entire life, and I have lots of experience with Live for Speed. I have been only driving for a few years now, but I enjoy romping about country roads, and drifting in the rain and snow. I understand how pretty much every component on a car works, and I understand the physics behind those components, and how they affect the car. In other words, I have a fairly well-developed sense of how a car should behave.

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I too have been playing racing games for a very long time (difference is I can remember when they did not exist), however I have been driving in RL for over 17 years, and have clocked up hundereds of hours on circuits and proving grounds in Europe. I have driven the 'ring (as have you), clocked over 155mph (indicated) on an autobahn and worked as a training consultant in the motor industry for the best part of a decade, one of my areas of speciatily being product launch and vehicle evaluation training. Just wanted to get that across to illustarte that I to have a very well-developed sense of how a car shuld behave.

Wolfe2x7

Enthusia's driving characteristics are very similar to Live for Speed, which is impressive, and the game's physics make total sense to me. When I'm playing Enthusia (or Live for Speed), I don't feel "disconnected," I feel as though I'm really driving a car, and the cars do exactly what I tell them to. If they don't, then I know exactly why, and what mistake I made. When playing either of these games, I find myself drifting a lot, not because I said to myself "ok, this race I'm going to drift," and not because I had to "set up my car for drifting" (the most overrated idea that the GT series has perpetuated... ), but just because it's easy to do, and it's just plain fun. Just like real life.

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I would agree that some of the elements of Enthusia and LFS are very similar, particularly with regard to the low speed physics side of things. This allows for an easy approach to drifting, handbrake turns, do-nuts, etc. The transition from understeer to oversteer at low speeds is also well developed.

However Enthusia is not perfect, the high speeds physics are not as well developed as they could be, particularly when using the racing models. Additionally I would argue that drifting, particularly at high speed is to easy to recover from.

In regard to your comments that a car does not need to be set-up to 'drift', you are quite right. Almost any (but not all) RWD cars can be induced to pop out the tail, particularly in the wet. However, very few RWD cars can be forced to maintain a big yaw angle, for a long duration in the dry without any form of modification.

Wolfe2x7

GT4 is very frustrating for me. The cars float about, artificially rotating while following a rail, and don't feel anything like cars. GT3 had this problem twicefold, and PD tried to fix it by adding massive nose dive under braking, and tweaking the body roll simulation. All that did was make every car in the game feel like a Land-Yacht. I tell a car to do something in GT4, and it just doesn't listen. It replies with unexplainably severe understeer, or way-too-long, drawn-out open diff wheelspin (on cars with LSDs...), or over-sensitive countersteer, or a sheer unwillingness to rotate...this doesn't mean I can't keep the cars on track -- if I compensate for the strange car behavior, I can force the cars around the tracks in respectable times without going off-course. But it's just not fun.

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Now I would be the first to admit that GT4 is not perfect, and at times the low speed physics are very poor, something I have documented repeatedly in the past. However some of your comments regarding GT4 I have to take issue with, no it may be a personal thing, but I do not feel that the cars in GT4 are floating about, apart from at speed, when a car should feel light at the nose.

The level of dive and squat under hard braking or acceleration does vary considerably between cars, and I feel is well repesented, even a stiffly sprung road car will experience noticable dive under braking. Its just in the real world we move out heads to compensate. Enthusia does the same with the grey box around the screen and while the methods are different the level of dive is not that different.

The next one I have discussed many times, in many threads; that of the level of understeer in GT4. Again I feel the need to state that it is not unrepresentative of the levels of understeer you will experience when cornering above th elimit on a track (particularly in a road car which will be biased to understeer).

If we look at the physics of cornering limits (I am using formula from the Physics of Racing series and Skip Barbers 'Going Faster').

The basic formula is 15 * g * r = mph2 (thats MPH squared - difficult to show here)

g = max lat g for the vehicle
r = corner radius in feet

You can get far more complex than this, but for rough work it is more than accurate enough.

If you have a 150 foot radius corner, a car that can corner at up
to 1g will have a maximum constant cornering speed of 47.43 mph.

How we can use the formula to work out how much Lateral g the car would be subject to if the driver tried the same 150ft radius corner at 50mph (an increase of little more than 2.5 mph)

Lateral g at 50 mph = 1.11g

The speed increase of less than 3 mph (an increase of approx 5%) has resulted in the car being subected to an 11% increase in lateral g. The small increase in speed has pushed the car well beyond its cornering ability. In a road car this would most likely lead to understeer.

The simple point is that once you reach the limit (which is very uncommon on the road, but very common on the track) of a cars cornering ability, because in rough terms the required lateral acceleration increases as the square of the cars speed. Enter a corner even just a few MPH too fast on a track in the real world and a loss of cornering ability is almost certain.

One of GT4's other problems comes into play here, and thats the one of the DS2 controller. The interface is quite simply too sensitive for some people (and I class myself as one), that additional few MPH in the corner being to easy to apply accidently with the DS2. Its one of the reasons why the DFP is my weapon of choice (for Enthusia as well).

Wolfe2x7

Forza Motorsport is one of the worst racing games ever made. Ever. GT3 is even better than it. Sure, Forza has the visual as well as mechanical customization, as well as online multiplayer, but the car selection is uninspired, the real-life tracks were rendered horrendously inaccurately (especially the Nürburgring), the graphics look more like a rushed-out-the-door X-BOX tech demo than a polished game, and the physics seem like they were designed by a monkey with a diaper on its head. All of the "number crunching" the game brags about and allows you to watch is a farce.

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While I would not be quite so harse with Forza, I would agree with your basic point about the game. The 'ring in particular is very, very poor. Just a pity it got all the Ferrari's and Porsche's rather than Enthusia and GT4.

Wolfe2x7

On-topic:

Um...how much more is there for us to say about the Tuner Hall, anyway...??

Good idea + terrible execution = a near waste of effort and disc space

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Another point we agree on, the cars as a nice touch, but the very limited range of tuner specific (and different to manufacturer) parts is just poor.


In closing I would like to add that while I agree with you that GT4 should be looked at with a critical eye and I would hope you would agree that we both do this - even if we differ at times). I do feel that you do not always use that same critical eye on Enthusia; while it is a great game, it is hardly without its flaws (some of which I have mentioned above).

I have just noticed that some of you recent posts have passed an analytical eye over GT4, but I seem to detect a little less critical nature when it comes to Enthusia.

As I have said before, people should be free to compare GT4 to its rivals, but only if they are willing to subject all of them to the same level of critical analysis. as an example take the tuning and settings in GT4, while flawed, at least they do use real value for most of the setting (which helps compare real world with the game), in Enthusia all we get is some abstract values.


Regards

Scaff