If only PD had...

[Wolfe]

That helps you out a lot with driving that's for sure, i need to spend more time driving on rural roads.

Just be smart about it...I enjoy driving "quick-like" on back roads, but I don't race on them, and I do it where the roads are empty...

Im sure that actual drift racing, they don't set up the cars to drift , you can drift any car, in GT4 without doing a damn thing to it. I've done it, and it's usually if i go into a corner too hot, but that really isn't much drift. The drifting setup is meant for consistent and long showy drifts, normal cars don't really do that unless you are some sort of drifting god.

I said that having to tune cars for drifting was an "overrated idea," not a "totally illogical idea."

My complaint is that whenever someone asks a question about drifting (in Gran Turismo or even in real life), everyone immediately goes "How is your car set up? Do you have such-and-such part? You need this and that and this, and then you set it up like so, and..." etc. etc. Instead of asking "How are you trying to initiate the drift? How do you go about countersteering? How much throttle are you giving it?" etc. Everyone is convinced that tuning is the only way to drift, and GT3 and GT4's inaccurate drifting physics are one of the big reasons why this is so.

You are still playing GT4 with a DS2, I told you something is not right with that thing, just yesterday I was playing with the DS2, now no idea how well u are supposed to translate wheel steer into a DS2, but it sucks. It's over sensitive, which is why i urge you to use the DFP. You can say that why would the interface make a difference, ummm....do you drive your car with a vise-grip on the column and use that to steer with, no. As GT continues to evolve, controllers will begin to show their inadequacies. Konami either did a great job translating steering wheel movements into Enthusia or PD just gave the DFP more preference over the DS2.

How about I put it this way...I remember a long time ago I tried this Virtual Reality thing, where you could walk around and shoot discs at other people who were playing the game. In order to walk, you would actually walk on a treadmill thing, to look around, you just moved your head, but to turn and shoot you had to push buttons. This VR thing was quite old (it might have been new when I played it...I don't remember what year this was), so not only were the graphics horrid, the movements and actions were all very archaic and artificial.

The gaming industry's latest first-person-shooters are capable of featuring very realistic animations and movements, are quite flexible, and are beginning to allow you to do pretty much whatever physical movement you want. You can look around, aim your gun, shoot, run, jump, crouch, lean, climb, etc. etc. All very realistic, and much more realistic than that VR thing. However, these FPS's are controlled with a mouse and keyboard. Obviously we don't use a mouse and keyboard to interact with the real world...

My point is that if the game isn't realistic in the first place, it won't matter what kind of "controller" you use; the game will still be unrealistic. If the game is realistic, it still won't matter what kind of "controller" you use; the game will still be realistic, and will be quite easy to play because, having experience in the real world, you'll be able to predict what your character/car will do. Enthusia's cars are easily predictable. GT4's aren't.

Hopefully, the next time my DFP-owning friend gets back into town, he'll bring it with him, and sell it to me...when that happens, I'll let you know what I think of GT4 with the DFP...

Oh my, did you say GT3 is better than Forza? Well for one thinks Forza is a pretty good game, a little on the boring side, but it's a good effort. It's does have it's weird quirks, like constant skidding no matter how cleanly you turn corners, tracks that are off in scale and accuracy. The problem is the physics and the tire physics have issues with one another, and vehicles don't feel as if they belong on the courses. But all in all it's pretty enjoyable, i like their tuning options to a point. Still play it when im bored, and to use ferrari F355.

Yes, I said GT3 is a better game. Not more realistic, but just a more enjoyable "sim." Forza's cars' movements make even less sense than GT3/4's.

I can't argue with you on Enthusia, haven't played it. the RPG type of gameplay made me step back. Might give it a go, to see how well their physics pans out. But i can't agree with GT3 being better than Forza at all. You talk about you drifting, but on rural roads, in the rain and on snow. All of which reduce tire adhesion to the road, therefore making drifting easier, than if it were on a dry street or special compound race course.

Whoa whoa whoa...I'm not stupid enough to drift on rural roads...parking lots, my friend, parking lots....well, except for the winter, when drifting is something that just kinda happens, so it's everywhere... but I live in the city, so still no rural roads.

Also, the reason why I don't drift in the dry isn't because it's more difficult for me...it's because it's more difficult for my car... 100hp = no dori dori on dry pavement..... Besides, rain and snow don't eat tires.

Anyway, I'm going to have to disagree with your point that drifting is "easier" in the rain and snow. It's certainly easier to get the tail out in the first place, but keeping it under control is another issue altogether, especially on snow and ice. That said, I drifted up a tight (25mph "recommended speed") onramp in the snow once...kept the tail out all the way to the end.

Also, why do you think official "drift cars" like in the D1GP use high-grip tires? To reduce adhesion to the road?? No, it's because they provide more control, making the drifting easier...

 

[SavageEvil]

I meant as in easier to initiate, but it's easier overall for all cars to initiate when there is less grip between tires and the road surface. On snow less emphasis on starting it, and more on controlling it. Road it's emphasis on all aspects, because the grip on road is not as constant as on snow, since roads tend to heat up.

GT3 is more fun, than Forza, that i can admit. That game wanted to do soo much, that is fell short in every category.

Im sorry but the interface does matter, virtual reality is 3D space movement. You are utilizing your appendages in the 3D world. This is a driving game, a controller is not going to give you the same range of movement as a steering wheel will, you keep saying the same thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the controller is not the ideal interface for getting the feel for driving. I'm sorry, but there has to be concessions made to "fake" it, you can't tell me that tilting your thumbstick about 60º is going to give you the exact range of motion as a steering wheel with 900º, be serious.

 

[Wolfe]

Oh no, another thread with a long drawn-out discussion on physics with Scaff!!

I too have been playing racing games for a very long time (difference is I can remember when they did not exist), however I have been driving in RL for over 17 years, and have clocked up hundereds of hours on circuits and proving grounds in Europe. I have driven the 'ring (as have you), clocked over 155mph (indicated) on an autobahn and worked as a training consultant in the motor industry for the best part of a decade, one of my areas of speciatily being product launch and vehicle evaluation training. Just wanted to get that across to illustarte that I to have a very well-developed sense of how a car shuld behave.

I didn't know all of that about you, but I don't doubt it, after our discussions from before. 👍

I would agree that some of the elements of Enthusia and LFS are very similar, particularly with regard to the low speed physics side of things. This allows for an easy approach to drifting, handbrake turns, do-nuts, etc. The transition from understeer to oversteer at low speeds is also well developed.

However Enthusia is not perfect, the high speeds physics are not as well developed as they could be, particularly when using the racing models. Additionally I would argue that drifting, particularly at high speed is to easy to recover from.

I completely agree with you that the R-class cars are bonkers. I was disappointed when I noticed this; they're simply way too fast and easy to control. I've mentioned this before, in the Enthusia forum if I remember correctly, but I don't blame you for missing it...

I would argue, though, that high-speed drifting isn't so hard to recover from. Of course, I have no real-world experience with this, but from watching others do it in videos and such, and from my own experiences in Live for Speed, Enthusia isn't so far off. I agree that Enthusia makes it too easy, but I think it's only a bit too easy...

In regard to your comments that a car does not need to be set-up to 'drift', you are quite right. Almost any (but not all) RWD cars can be induced to pop out the tail, particularly in the wet. However, very few RWD cars can be forced to maintain a big yaw angle, for a long duration in the dry without any form of modification.

Agreed, and agreed. However, this myth of "omg u need tuning!!" that I was referring to seems to be most often applied to drifting at all, as opposed to just long, big-angle drifts.

Now I would be the first to admit that GT4 is not perfect, and at times the low speed physics are very poor, something I have documented repeatedly in the past. However some of your comments regarding GT4 I have to take issue with, no it may be a personal thing, but I do not feel that the cars in GT4 are floating about, apart from at speed, when a car should feel light at the nose.

The level of dive and squat under hard braking or acceleration does vary considerably between cars, and I feel is well repesented, even a stiffly sprung road car will experience noticable dive under braking. Its just in the real world we move out heads to compensate. Enthusia does the same with the grey box around the screen and while the methods are different the level of dive is not that different.

Perhaps floating was the wrong word. It's hard to describe, but I'm referring to the artificial nature of the cars' movements, derived from the "method" by which GT4 simulates driving, as I described in our other thread.

As for the dive and squat, you've never noticed that, from the inside view in GT4, the car will occasionally bury its nose as if it were sprung with jello? I remember hearing about this in a list of "new features" before the game even came out, "more realistic body roll" or something like that. On the day I bought it, the first time I encountered that brake dive, I shook my head in disbelief...Perhaps I should have been more specific in referring to the brake dive, because that's the main problem...

The next one I have discussed many times, in many threads; that of the level of understeer in GT4. Again I feel the need to state that it is not unrepresentative of the levels of understeer you will experience when cornering above th elimit on a track (particularly in a road car which will be biased to understeer).

If we look at the physics of cornering limits (I am using formula from the Physics of Racing series and Skip Barbers 'Going Faster').

The basic formula is 15 * g * r = mph2 (thats MPH squared - difficult to show here)

g = max lat g for the vehicle
r = corner radius in feet

You can get far more complex than this, but for rough work it is more than accurate enough.

If you have a 150 foot radius corner, a car that can corner at up
to 1g will have a maximum constant cornering speed of 47.43 mph.

How we can use the formula to work out how much Lateral g the car would be subject to if the driver tried the same 150ft radius corner at 50mph (an increase of little more than 2.5 mph)

Lateral g at 50 mph = 1.11g

The speed increase of less than 3 mph (an increase of approx 5%) has resulted in the car being subected to an 11% increase in lateral g. The small increase in speed has pushed the car well beyond its cornering ability. In a road car this would most likely lead to understeer.

The simple point is that once you reach the limit (which is very uncommon on the road, but very common on the track) of a cars cornering ability, because in rough terms the required lateral acceleration increases as the square of the cars speed. Enter a corner even just a few MPH too fast on a track in the real world and a loss of cornering ability is almost certain.

I understand and see your point, but I still personally think that your calculated examples are too specific to apply to the behavior of a car as a whole. But that's just my opinion.

Also, as you already know, I've been to the 'Ring, in a relatively understeer-happy 525ti at that, and also in the wet... If I may say so myself, the 525ti was having less trouble than most cars in GT4 seem to have in the dry...but this is only a gut feeling...

One of GT4's other problems comes into play here, and thats the one of the DS2 controller. The interface is quite simply too sensitive for some people (and I class myself as one), that additional few MPH in the corner being to easy to apply accidently with the DS2. Its one of the reasons why the DFP is my weapon of choice (for Enthusia as well).

See my post above, where I talk about the VR thing ^

While I would not be quite so harse with Forza, I would agree with your basic point about the game. The 'ring in particular is very, very poor. Just a pity it got all the Ferrari's and Porsche's rather than Enthusia and GT4.

Harsh? Yes. Untrue? Not so much...

In closing I would like to add that while I agree with you that GT4 should be looked at with a critical eye and I would hope you would agree that we both do this - even if we differ at times). I do feel that you do not always use that same critical eye on Enthusia; while it is a great game, it is hardly without its flaws (some of which I have mentioned above).

I have just noticed that some of you recent posts have passed an analytical eye over GT4, but I seem to detect a little less critical nature when it comes to Enthusia.

As I have said before, people should be free to compare GT4 to its rivals, but only if they are willing to subject all of them to the same level of critical analysis. as an example take the tuning and settings in GT4, while flawed, at least they do use real value for most of the setting (which helps compare real world with the game), in Enthusia all we get is some abstract values.

The reason why I hardly ever seem to pass a critical eye over Enthusia is because I am a racing sim player that values physics over almost everything else (thus GT4's cars and tracks aren't enough to please me, and Forza's online multiplayer doesn't save it from my scorn), and I simply feel that Enthusia's physics flaws, though certainly present, are very small. On the other hand, GT4 and Forza get put through the wringer by me because they have so many physics flaws.

If you want to hear me criticize Enthusia, here goes:

Drifting is a little on the easy side, and the R-class cars are horribly over-competent. The tuning system is unique, but just doesn't work, especially because the power/weight/tire upgrades are simply "levels," and the fine-tuning of the suspension and drivetrain is way too limited and dumbed down. The menu system was designed by a retarded toad with freckles, and Enthusia Life lacks any real motivation. Unlocking cars in Enthusia Life is frustrating and illogical, and the way it unlocks tracks is invisible and hard to understand. Driving Revolution, though a good idea, could have been executed better. Time Attack does what it implies, but it should have included the reversed tracks, the Ocean Bridge should have been available in its unlimited form, and the way the game saves and displays records is annoying and confusing. Free racing should have had an option within it to change the A.I. difficulty, but otherwise simply falls prey to the horrible menu system. Two-player should have featured the ability to race against A.I. opponents, and there should have been online multiplayer. The controls aren't customizable enough, and the music can get repetitive and annoying.

Better?

 

[Wolfe]

Im sorry but the interface does matter, virtual reality is 3D space movement. You are utilizing your appendages in the 3D world. This is a driving game, a controller is not going to give you the same range of movement as a steering wheel will, you keep saying the same thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the controller is not the ideal interface for getting the feel for driving. I'm sorry, but there has to be concessions made to "fake" it, you can't tell me that tilting your thumbstick about 60º is going to give you the exact range of motion as a steering wheel with 900º, be serious.

Ok, I will re-iterate that I do not think the controller is a better interface than the wheel. I still, however, stand by my opinion that the "controller" being used doesn't have to match the game, and that proper "concessions" don't have to be made to accomodate a controller, in order for the simulation to be realistic. I've tried playing Live for Speed with a controller, with 0, I repeat, no concessions being made to accomodate the little analog sticks and buttons, and I would rather play LFS like that than play GT4, because Live for Speed is still more realistic, even though there's about a millimeter difference between no understeer and massive understeer...

 

[SavageEvil]

Ok, I will re-iterate that I do not think the controller is a better interface than the wheel. I still, however, stand by my opinion that the "controller" being used doesn't have to match the game, and that proper "concessions" don't have to be made to accomodate a controller, in order for the simulation to be realistic. I've tried playing Live for Speed with a controller, with 0, I repeat, no concessions being made to accomodate the little analog sticks and buttons, and I would rather play LFS like that than play GT4, because Live for Speed is still more realistic, even though there's about a millimeter difference between no understeer and massive understeer...

Have you ever played GT4 with the DFP? If you haven't, I'll wait till you do then get back to me.

We all know that GT4's physics are off, but the entire package of the physics, attention to detail in the courses, feedback from surface to the steering(only with a DFP) eclipses the others. Hopefully with PS3 the physics will be on the PC sim level, but will all the bells and whistles that GT is known for.

 

[TigJackson]

well, except for the winter, when drifting is something that just kinda happens, so it's everywhere...

Or with any car on any track in Enthusia. If real, regular cars actually handled as poorly as they do in Enthusia, they would be death traps and NONE would be sold.

I completely aced all 4 Stages in all 18 Levels (S) in Driving Revolution and won the stupidly named <feeling nauseous> "King of the Year Grand Prix" </nauseous....feeling better> in Enthusia Life in just four days of real time play.....4 DAYS!!!!

I couldn't believe that this game was so short, and the crappy, unrealistic handling on really lousy looking 'original' courses, with a putrid selection of cars, ruined any replay value that this poor attempt at a simulator may have had. Oh, and don't forget about the sluggish menu system and the lottery system for unlocking cars....how can I put it so that even someone of your intellect might understand?....Oh yeah, this game is simply NO FUN.

Tsukuba was decent in both day, night, and reverse configurations, but even setting my TV at maximum brightness, the Nurburgring is too dark and gloomy to offer any real enjoyment, and racing on it in reverse is idiotic.

 

[Cobra_UK]

It would have been very easy to just say that in some ways the physics in Enthusia are better while in others GT4's physics are better. Car behaviour feels slightly more realistic Enthusia and it's much easier to drift. However, cars can be set up in GT4 on purpose to drift like in Enthusia. Both physics models have their strenghts and weaknesses...

I'm very pleased to know that you Wolfe and Scaff have all this amazing "experience" in the automotive technical and practical environment. Thank you for going out of your way to ensure we all know just what a couple of "special" and righteous guys you are. I have a lot of this experience you claim to have. Would you like me to make a long, self-important, post too? Then we could complare tool sizes with one more grandeur clitoris involved. Nah, I think I'll give that a miss. 👎

EDIT: I made an attempt to bring the thread back earlier with the On-Topic post but it looks like it's not going to happen.

 

[SUROKIA]

i wanna play GT1 again cos it had BOOST PRESSURE! but alas i cant find my disc.

 

[Wolfe]

It would have been very easy to just say that in some ways the physics in Enthusia are better while in others GT4's physics are better. Car behaviour feels slightly more realistic Enthusia and it's much easier to drift. However, cars can be set up in GT4 on purpose to drift like in Enthusia. Both physics models have their strenghts and weaknesses...

GT4 "requiring setups to be drift-capable" is an area where GT4's physics are better...??

I'm very pleased to know that you Wolfe and Scaff have all this amazing "experience" in the automotive technical and practical environment. Thank you for going out of your way to ensure we all know just what a couple of "special" and righteous guys you are. I have a lot of this experience you claim to have. Would you like me to make a long, self-important, post too? Then we could complare tool sizes with one more grandeur clitoris involved. Nah, I think I'll give that a miss. 👎

Wow..."ohh you guys think you're special and smart, but you're not. I could make a self-centered post too but I'm too good for that, unlike you *****..harharhar"

Well darn. Up until now I thought you were a pretty cool, level-headed guy... I guess I can give you some credit for disproving that idea in a spectacular fashion...

EDIT: I made an attempt to bring the thread back earlier with the On-Topic post but it looks like it's not going to happen.

The thread has evolved. We talked about the tuner garages, and now we've moved on.

Or with any car on any track in Enthusia. If real, regular cars actually handled as poorly as they do in Enthusia, they would be death traps and NONE would be sold.

Gamespot said the same thing...have you seen how terrible they are at driving sims? I find it hard to believe that Enthusia's renditions of cars like the Honda Accord, Subaru Legacy, or New Beetle (cars commonly driven by automotive "non-enthusiasts") were really that offensive to you. Do you think Jane A. Minivandriver could handle an M3, Supra, or Corvette at their limit in real life...?

I completely aced all 4 Stages in all 18 Levels (S) in Driving Revolution and won the stupidly named <feeling nauseous> "King of the Year Grand Prix" </nauseous....feeling better> in Enthusia Life in just four days of real time play.....4 DAYS!!!!

I couldn't believe that this game was so short, and the crappy, unrealistic handling on really lousy looking 'original' courses, with a putrid selection of cars, ruined any replay value that this poor attempt at a simulator may have had. Oh, and don't forget about the sluggish menu system and the lottery system for unlocking cars....

Well I'm glad you spent the time to beat the game so thoroughly before commenting on it here. I find it a little hard to believe that you went through the trouble of getting an "S" on level 17, stage 4 of driving revolution (I never really bothered with Mission 34 in GT4... ), with how strongly you dislike the game, but hey, I can't really argue; I went through the trouble of doing all kinds of stuff in GT4, even after I realized that it was just a mediocre game.

I find your opinion, that Enthusia's car selection is "putrid," a little odd...I would almost describe it as "GT4 lite," but with a few good cars that PD never even thought of including...but, to each his own...

how can I put it so that even someone of your intellect might understand?....Oh yeah, this game is simply NO FUN.

Do I know you?...Have I done something to upset you?

Tsukuba was decent in both day, night, and reverse configurations, but even setting my TV at maximum brightness, the Nurburgring is too dark and gloomy to offer any real enjoyment, and racing on it in reverse is idiotic.

Yeah, I hate it when I have to drive in anything but direct sunlight...it just sucks...

I also really hate it when a videogame developer gives me any extra choices or freedom...

Have you ever played GT4 with the DFP? If you haven't, I'll wait till you do then get back to me.

Hopefully, the next time my DFP-owning friend gets back into town, he'll bring it with him, and sell it to me...when that happens, I'll let you know what I think of GT4 with the DFP...

We all know that GT4's physics are off, but the entire package of the physics, attention to detail in the courses, feedback from surface to the steering(only with a DFP) eclipses the others. Hopefully with PS3 the physics will be on the PC sim level, but will all the bells and whistles that GT is known for.

No offense, but "off"-yet-decent physics, detailed courses, and force-feedback are hardly GT-specific traits...



I smell a locking coming up soon....

 

[Cobra_UK]

A cool, level headed guy would say: "In some ways the physics in Enthusia are better while in others GT4's physics are better. Car behaviour feels slightly more realistic Enthusia and it's much easier to drift. However, cars can be set up in GT4 on purpose to drift like in Enthusia. Both physics models have their strenghts and weaknesses..."

It's a friendly comment that's meant to avoid a heated debate about a trivial thing. I have more important things in my life to use serious energy for. And as for coming on this forum full of self importance and bull poo it doesn't do much for me. I'd rather prove myself in the real world and the only people I care about are the ones who's opinions of me I consider. They're also the people I respect. Needless to say your opinion is of no importance to me.

You could have just read the silver lining and give it a rest. But nooo!

Cheers

 

[Scaff]

It would have been very easy to just say that in some ways the physics in Enthusia are better while in others GT4's physics are better. Car behaviour feels slightly more realistic Enthusia and it's much easier to drift. However, cars can be set up in GT4 on purpose to drift like in Enthusia. Both physics models have their strenghts and weaknesses...

If you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that this is just the point I was making. That both have pros and cons, I also pointed out that a critical analysis of one without the other is simply another form of bias.

I am very sorry if it did not read in that way to you, my intention was not to confuse.

I'm very pleased to know that you Wolfe and Scaff have all this amazing "experience" in the automotive technical and practical environment. Thank you for going out of your way to ensure we all know just what a couple of "special" and righteous guys you are. I have a lot of this experience you claim to have. Would you like me to make a long, self-important, post too? Then we could complare tool sizes with one more grandeur clitoris involved. Nah, I think I'll give that a miss. 👎

I have in no way gone out to make myself apear a 'special' or 'righteous' person, I mearly used my experience to validate my points regarding both games. To illustrate the point that I am not just looking at this from a game point of view, but that I do have the experience and knowledge to compare it to the real world.

It was a small part of a very large post, and I am sorry that you appear to have only focused on this. However, to then take just that part and expaind it to the point of a personally and borderline offensive post is just a little bit sad.

I have discussed my background in numerous posts before (for example in the GT4 & Brakes thread) and no one else has taken it in anway other than a validation of my ability to talk with exerience on certain subjects. As I actually said in the last sentence

Just wanted to get that across to illustrate that I to have a very well-developed sense of how a car should behave.

I have no problem with discussions on my posts and the subject matter they contain, I do however have a major issue with personal attacks (particularly unjustified ones), as you will also find do the moderators.

You complain about the posts by Wolfe and I being off topic, while both of our posts contained on-topic comments and moved the subject along. A lot more that could be said for this post you yours.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Scaff]

I completely agree with you that the R-class cars are bonkers. I was disappointed when I noticed this; they're simply way too fast and easy to control. I've mentioned this before, in the Enthusia forum if I remember correctly, but I don't blame you for missing it...

Must have missed that one, but yes the R-class cars are just plain daft.

I would argue, though, that high-speed drifting isn't so hard to recover from. Of course, I have no real-world experience with this, but from watching others do it in videos and such, and from my own experiences in Live for Speed, Enthusia isn't so far off. I agree that Enthusia makes it too easy, but I think it's only a bit too easy...

I would have to disagree that high speed oversteer is not hard to recover from, even a moderate yaw angle at a high speed is going to contain a lot of inertia and be difficult to catch, control and recover.

With regard to the lower speed stuff, as I have said before, I do believe that Enthusia is damn good in this area, and only a little bit to easy. I would counter by saying that, in my opinion, GT4 is only a little to difficult in this area.

Agreed, and agreed. However, this myth of "omg u need tuning!!" that I was referring to seems to be most often applied to drifting at all, as opposed to just long, big-angle drifts.

I would agree, but I don't think that the GT series is the biggest culprit here, some of the blame for this would have to be passed to the moding culture and NFSU, etc.

As for the dive and squat, you've never noticed that, from the inside view in GT4, the car will occasionally bury its nose as if it were sprung with jello? I remember hearing about this in a list of "new features" before the game even came out, "more realistic body roll" or something like that. On the day I bought it, the first time I encountered that brake dive, I shook my head in disbelief...Perhaps I should have been more specific in referring to the brake dive, because that's the main problem...

The level of brake dive does vary greatly from car to car and set-up to set-up, I would not however say it is unrealistic. Rapid deceleration in a road car on the track will produc that level of dive, I have experienced it in my Celica T-Sport and its very close. I had a quick look at GT4 and Enthusia with regard to this last night and the two are not that different in the level of this effect, they just take very different approaches in how it is implemented.

You also have to remember that in the real world our bodies automatically adjust for the brake-dive to ensure that our vision remains focused on what we are looking at. Our eyes move, as do our bodies to compensate, this just does not happen when looking at a TV.

I understand and see your point, but I still personally think that your calculated examples are too specific to apply to the behavior of a car as a whole. But that's just my opinion.

Also, as you already know, I've been to the 'Ring, in a relatively understeer-happy 525ti at that, and also in the wet... If I may say so myself, the 525ti was having less trouble than most cars in GT4 seem to have in the dry...but this is only a gut feeling...

The examples and formula I use are quite widely used for calculating corner speeds (hence the reason I quoted two sources) and very accurate (once you know the cars lateral g limit). I have been putting these to use for a new post regarding GT4 tyres and cornering speeds and forces, could well be my biggest post yet. Also doing the same for Enthusia, which should prove to be interesting.

In regard to the 'ring issue, if I recall (and correct me if I'm wrong). but the rain kept your lap of the 'ring to around 11 - 12 minutes. Which would be an average speed of approx 60mph, even taking the rain into account, taking a car in GT4 around the 'ring at this speed (and I have done it) is quite easy, and its also amazing how much it masks the bumps (that have a much bigger impact on the car at higher speeds - as they should).

Better?

👍 Yep, we still don't agree 100%, but then that would be boring and no fun at all. However its a good and valid range of discussions.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Cobra_UK]

Jesus, mate, this is a forum. Not proving grounds.

You feel that the thread has moved along and that's justified, you feel the need to type long, long posts absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. If you have done so much in your life why do you have time for such essays in this forum? Look at your 2 last consecutive posts. Do you not think you're taking things a bit seriously? I for one am not interested in you, I'm interested in the thread topic and would have liked to see more on that subject. If I wanted to know about you I'd ask. It's not a crime to say, jokingly, "guys give it a rest, you're taking the mikey posting all this elaborate stuff when it has nothing to do with the topic, plus the thread is getting quite heated". Let it go, make a thread so you can discuss in more depth what you want to discuss, if it has nothing to do with the topic.

Please contact a moderator and you may see a different point of view from yours.

 

[Wolfe]

Must have missed that one, but yes the R-class cars are just plain daft.

I think it was in the GT4 vs Enthusia physics thread in the Enthusia forum...no prob', dun' worry 'bout it.

I would have to disagree that high speed oversteer is not hard to recover from, even a moderate yaw angle at a high speed is going to contain a lot of inertia and be difficult to catch, control and recover.

With regard to the lower speed stuff, as I have said before, I do believe that Enthusia is damn good in this area, and only a little bit to easy. I would counter by saying that, in my opinion, GT4 is only a little to difficult in this area.

Depends on the car and situation, as I see it. The thing about recovering from high-speed drifting is that many cars will have so much trouble keeping the drift going in the first place, that a gradual, and thus easily controllable return to grip is almost inevitable. Also, in some situations you can use the friction of the drift to slow your speed for a sharp corner, granted that you are capable of keeping the car sideways long enough and steadily enough (check out the first drift in my "Drift-thousand-two" vid in the Enthusia forum, to see what I mean).

In any case, if high-speed drifting is supposed to be really difficult, than Live for Speed is flawed in this area as well...I'm not saying that this is impossible. I am pointing out that I am not just basing this opinion on Enthusia alone.

I would agree, but I don't think that the GT series is the biggest culprit here, some of the blame for this would have to be passed to the moding culture and NFSU, etc.

Indeed; I merely said that the GT series was one of the biggest culprits...

The level of brake dive does vary greatly from car to car and set-up to set-up, I would not however say it is unrealistic. Rapid deceleration in a road car on the track will produc that level of dive, I have experienced it in my Celica T-Sport and its very close. I had a quick look at GT4 and Enthusia with regard to this last night and the two are not that different in the level of this effect, they just take very different approaches in how it is implemented.

You also have to remember that in the real world our bodies automatically adjust for the brake-dive to ensure that our vision remains focused on what we are looking at. Our eyes move, as do our bodies to compensate, this just does not happen when looking at a TV.

If you haven't noticed, the amount of brake dive the car experiences from the 3rd person views is much less than the amount of dive experienced in the 1st person view...

The examples and formula I use are quite widely used for calculating corner speeds (hence the reason I quoted two sources) and very accurate (once you know the cars lateral g limit). I have been putting these to use for a new post regarding GT4 tyres and cornering speeds and forces, could well be my biggest post yet. Also doing the same for Enthusia, which should prove to be interesting.

Neat! I'm looking forward to it. 👍

In regard to the 'ring issue, if I recall (and correct me if I'm wrong). but the rain kept your lap of the 'ring to around 11 - 12 minutes. Which would be an average speed of approx 60mph, even taking the rain into account, taking a car in GT4 around the 'ring at this speed (and I have done it) is quite easy, and its also amazing how much it masks the bumps (that have a much bigger impact on the car at higher speeds - as they should).

Indeed... Didja have to remind me about my terrible time...?

Anyway, I wasn't referring so much to the pace of my lap as much as I was simply referring to the overall behavior and grip of the car. On the other hand, as I had implied in that comment, I could certainly be wrong...

👍 Yep, we still don't agree 100%, but then that would be boring and no fun at all. However its a good and valid range of discussions.

Meh, maybe 80-90%. I think our most notable disagreements include the definition of understeer and the behaviors of cars in more extreme situations...

 

[Wolfe]

Jesus, mate, this is a forum. Not proving grounds.

You feel that the thread has moved along and that's justified, you feel the need to type long, long posts absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. If you have done so much in your life why do you have time for such essays in this forum? Look at your 2 last consecutive posts. Do you not think you're taking things a bit seriously?

I don't know about Scaff, but If I typed essays as quickly as I type these posts, I'd be turning in my papers the day after they were assigned...as for taking things seriously...were we the ones who felt the need to scold other people on a forum for being "self-centered" and "comparing tool sizes?"

I for one am not interested in you, I'm interested in the thread topic and would have liked to see more on that subject. If I wanted to know about you I'd ask. It's not a crime to say, jokingly, "guys give it a rest, you're taking the mikey posting all this elaborate stuff when it has nothing to do with the topic, plus the thread is getting quite heated". Let it go, make a thread so you can discuss in more depth what you want to discuss, if it has nothing to do with the topic.

I think I've got a better summary of your "criminal" post...

"jesus christ you guys think you're hot ****, but you're just egotistical assholes who are doing nothing but comparing dick sizes...I could do that too, but I'm better than you."



Anyway, the thread was getting heated...? I think ving summed it up quite nicely, towards the top of the second page...

well this thread is too civil for my liking. I am off to find a violent one

True, this was towards the top of the page, but I think it would have been fitting even if it was just above TigJackson's post.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Yes you are two idiots and nobody but you two nerds are continuing with this thread. Because in your sad and pathetic existence there isn't much more than this.

I've seen you do this before on threads you've created. That's fine it's your thing, you don't have anything else better to do. A lot of people that like your threads are interested in what you have to say. Those who are not interested, maybe I'm one of the few, can just ignore your thread. But I don't like it when you jump on to someone's thread and start "evolving it". Though it's more like messing it up in my opinion.

EDIT: You both have done so well on this forum and it's gotten to the point where you seem to think you own it. I said something that wasn't to your liking and that was "criminal"? If that's criminal then I guess you'l like to hang me for the above post.

 

[Scaff]

Yes you are two idiots and nobody but you two nerds are continuing with this thread. Because in your sad and pathetic existence there isn't much more than this.

I've seen you do this before on threads you've created. That's fine it's your thing, you don't have anything else better to do. A lot of people that like your threads are interested in what you have to say. Those who are not interested, maybe I'm one of the few, can just ignore your thread. But I don't like it when you jump on to someone's thread and start "evolving it". Though it's more like messing it up in my opinion.

EDIT: You both have done so well on this forum and it's gotten to the point where you seem to think you own it. I said something that wasn't to your liking and that was "criminal"? If that's criminal then I guess you'l like to hang me for the above post.

If you do not like the length of my posts, then don't read them. I have just added you to my blocked list and sent a report to a mod with ref to your tone and personall attacks.

In addition you may want to not send PM's to me having a go about comments made by Wolfe.

 

[Kent]

Don't care who started it because I'm finishing it.

I believe I gave a warning earlier in the thread?

In any case... Case closed - Just like this thread.