AI Opponents Lineups Patterns?

Okay, I searched for a thread discussing this, but could not find one.

It appears that for any given game, on a given day, with a given car and race, the opposing AI lineups you will get are deterministic. It is relatively well-known that you can exit a race and re-enter to see a new lineup with no game-day penalty.

But it appears that the succession of lineups you will get with any particular car is not random, but is deterministic. (In fact, I must test the game in question with different cars to determine whether your car makes any difference).

Now comments by other people discussing the difficulty of certain series suggest that you don't always get the same field presented first for each series, since some people encountered the difficult cars and others didn't.

So has anyone determined any patterns?
I must try to verify whether your entry car makes any difference.

And apart from that, I wonder when the field changes? I got the same first field for the Nurburgring 24 hour as I did when I raced it, i.e. 2 game days later. Would that change if I changed cars? Would it change if I changed cars and then changed back to my same one? Is the field selection perhaps related to the change in the used-car lineups?

Seems the line up changes each time you exit then re-enter the race...It appears to me that there are 2 lineups...Not sure on this?

Different series will gve you a different combination of opponents, the number of combinations varies from series to series but I think it's always more than 2. It has been discussed, or mentioned before but with regardfs to threads, I haven't seen one. I do recall someone having a list of what appears for each championship, I think it was only for a select few championships like the GTWC but it could still be helpfull if somone who knows where the info is brought it back.

This is what I've found....
From a console reset:
If you enter a race in a particular car, you will face a particular lineup, and after that a set of lineups depending on the number of different AI opponents there are available.

If you reset the console without saving, and enter the same race in the same car, the 1st lineup and subsequent lineups will be the same.

If you race once, save the game and then reset the console, and enter the same car in the same race, the 1st lineup generally (but not always) remains the same, but the subsequent lineups will also change after a certain number of enter/exits. Can be as early as the 2nd lineup, or as late (in my experience) as the 9th lineup, after which the lineups you see will vary compared to those that you saw to begin with.

Obviously it depends on the number of AI opponents, if there's only 2 possible AI opponents, the lineup will not change too much compared to where there's a choice of 15 AI cars.

I tried with the 1000miles! race, and recorded the 1st 48 lineups that appeared, entering in an Alfa Spider 1600 Duetto '66, and found that the lineups never repeated the same car/order pattern.

Similarly I did the same with the Beginner FF league, entering in a Honda Accord Coupe '88 and found there were no repeats in the 1st 20 cycles.

There doesn't seem to be any hard & fast rules about which lineups will appear, but it seems that if a day or number of days has passed, and you've saved the game, then reset the console and enter the same car in the same race, the 1st lineup is usually the same, but subsequent ones will vary.

Entering the same race in a car of similar power or WPR, tends to give similar if not the same lineups, up to a point, but this isn't always the case.

I have 2 excel spreadsheets listing the lineups for the 1000miles! & Beginner FF lineups I mentioned, but they'll obviously change slightly if you enter the races on a different day, or in a different car to those which I entered in. If anyone wants them, PM me.

I also have a copy of a guide that someone else wrote, so I don't feel I should distribute the whole thing since it's not mine, but it lists all the possible AI opponents for most race series, and if you have a particular request, again send me a PM, and I'll pull some AI data out for you. 👍

Hope this helps, it's a little , but as I said it's difficult to spot any kind of pattern.

I have found that the method for determining lineups varies depending on what series you are in. It is also different for different versions of the game (I have a PAL game).

Examples using exactly the same car for the series:
Japanese 70's Classic: the lineups are always identical regardless of game day or how many saves - lineup #26 is always the same (and gives me 200 a-spec).
Almost and enduro: I never get the same lineup, even the first one. If I save then enter an enduro and reset during that race and go straight back and enter again I will get different first and subsequent lineups.

I also tried to map out a selection of lineups for the 1000 miles! races. I thought that a guide giving the lineups would help people choose a challenging race and give them some options on how fast a car they could choose (fast car -> tough AI, slow car -> easier AI).

However, the lineups change if you change car, change date, race, etc. It seems that doing anything in the game will cause the lineups to change. I think this is a case of people will just have to try it out for themselves.

In some races/series, you race against different cars, but they tend to retain the same color no matter what car you race against, sort of like how GT1 did it.

The PD Cup events are notorious for this: I'm always racing against a red '85 RX-7, a white Integra Type R '03, an orange Fiat Barchetta, a blue Peugeot 206cc...and a few other cars, but mostly those. These are cars that are available in other, if not many, other colors. But it sure seems like Groundhog Day everytime I enter those PD races, whether in series or one-by-one.

GT2 and GT3 were more random in color choices; I did a test for GT2, and it seemed that the car you entered determined the layout of the AI for a certain day. I ran a Demio in the European Nationals, and recorded the cars and colors. I hit reset when the race ended, and did it again; the same cars, colors, and starting order appeared. Just to see if it was just random, I reset the race a second time, and lo and behold, the AI were in the exact same places, as if they'd been waiting for me.

I can't say if GT3 was like this, I didn't experiment that much with it.

Yes, in GT1 there was a real peculiarity.

The Hard-Tuned Series always had one of two sets of opponents. I tracked down the in-memory possible opponent lists in GT1 and it turned out the list for that event and the SSR11 All-Night II ("Hard-Tuned") Enduro were the same, but in different orders.

In that game, presumably they had part of the algorithm which attempted to favour cars from the top and/or bottom of the list, but another part of the algorithm definitely maximized the number of manufacturers represented, and so presumably in some cases those requirements conflicted and reduced the possible lineups. If there weren't enough manufacturers, then manufacturers, and even exact cars would be duplicated, e.g. in the Lightweight Series. Or when I used a GameShark to set the Hard Tuned list to have fewer entrants, sometimes only one. If I used the GameShark to make the entry list point to the one for the SSR11II race, more lineups would be generated. (I couldn't generate arbitrary lineups because the game "knew" what cars were supposed to be entrants, and if I gave it a car it wasn't expecting, it generated the data for a Toyota Glanza--and the wheels too! Other people sometimes implied I wasn't looking hard enough, but for whatever reason didn't actually give me the requisite details).

I hope the creator of this thread will forgive me this off-topic indulgence, but it does seem this could be germain to the general issue.

I have entries relating to the GT1 lineups at http://www.geocities.com/gt2toxs/gt/diary . I have probably created threads relating to this in the GT1 forum here, too.

I have found that my opponents are based on what equipment I have for the car, (not necessarily installed, or applied to the car) I bring into a championship. Example: If I start the PD with a new RX-7, no mods other than a cage I'm pitted against a Ford GT. But If I go in thier with an RS4 loaded up, I have to go in and out 4 or 5 times to get an SL500 for a worthy opponent.

The fact you need to go in and out four or five times to get a worthy opponent suggests, as other people do, that your opponent is not affected by your car.

Here's information about the apparently consistent, for me currently, Nürburgring 24 lineups.

In order of appearance...

1s. Toyota SuperAutobacs Apex MR-S (JGTC) '00
2m. AMG Mercedes 190E 2.5 - 16 Evolution II Touring Car '92
3c. Nissan C-West Razo Silvia (JGTC) '01
4f. Nissan FALKEN*GT-R Race Car '04
5o. Opel Calibra Trundling Car '94
6a. ASL Arta Garaiya (JGTC) '03
7s. Spoon S2000 Race Car '00
8a. Abt Audi TT-R Touring Car '02
9a Alfa Romeo 155 2.5 V6 Ti Touring Car '93
10c CUSCO Subaru Advan Impreza (JGTC) '03
11w. WEDSSPORT Toyota Celica (JGTC) '03
12a. Audi A4 Touring Car '04
13a. RE Amemiya Asparadrink RX7 (JGTC) '04
14b. BMW M3 GTR Race Car '01
15c. Chaparral 2D Race Car '67
16v. Vauxhall Calibra Super Touring Car '94 (Only in PAL version)

I give each number a mnemonic letter suffix. It helps me a lot when I write out and later look up the fields. And helped me produce the above list basically from memory. (later I edited it to make the names more correct).

This agrees with the list given in...
Complete AI Pit strategy guide for the 16 Endurance Races.


The first 25 lineups...

1. 1s, 2m, 3c, 4f, 5o
2. 6a, 2m, 7s, 5o, 8a
3. 6a, 9a, 10c, 1s, 3c
4. 11w, 12a, 10c, 1s, 5o
5. 12a, 6a, 3c, 2m, 8a
6. 13a, 11w, 7s, 6a, 9a
7. 1s, 5o, 6a, 3c, 11w
8. 11w, 7s, 10c, 12a, 4f
9. 12a, 5o, 14b, 3c, 4f
10. 2m, 8a, 10c, 4f, 3c
11. 1s, 5o, 13a, 8a, 3c
12. 4f, 8a, 2m, 11w, 9a
13. 10c, 1s, 5o, 2m, 7s
14. 14b, 9a, 1s, 2m, 11w
15. 1s, 3c, 14b, 4f, 5o
16. 15c, 12a, 7s, 11w, 2m
17. 2m, 4f, 11w, 14b, 1s
18. 2m, 7s, 11w, 6a, 15c
19. 12a, 6a, 8a, 1s, 14b
20. 12a, 6a, 15c, 9a, 8a
21. 2m, 13a, 8a, 5o, 15c
22. 1s, 2m, 15c, 5o, 12a
23. 8a, 14b, 10c, 3c, 9a
24. 4f, 1s, 11w, 5o, 14b
25. 12a, 15c, 2m, 9a, 8a

If I start previews instead of races, the fields are still from the above list, read left-to-right, except that if a duplicate would occur, a substitution will be made. (Also, the first car is the "featured" sixth place car, with the next five starting in positions 1 to 5). Or, occasionally, I can deduce that such a substitution was made when the above lineups were produced. Similarly, if I do something to offset the start of each field (e.g. start getting race lineups after doing a number of previews not divisible by five), then substitutions will be made to avoid duplicates, and I also discover the occasional car which was a substitution for a duplicate. Clarification: when doing previews, read the list as one continual list. I.e. take the entire list above, and chop up into sixes instead of fives. And then there's the "last is first", and duplicate-avoidance caveats.

The first such substitution for a duplicate appears to be the first 5o, which will be a 1s if there isn't one in the field already. (E.g. enter/exit one Special Condition race before going to the Nürburgring 24, and I get lineup 3c, 4f, 1s, 6a, 2m). [Aside: an entry/exit from a Special Conditions race appear to advance you two cars through the list, while results from trying other events are more unpredictable; often you can locate the lineup, if you remember that some cars in the "standard" lineup are in fact replacements for would-be duplicates, but the offset does not seem to follow an obvious pattern]

I've checked the above several times in several ways.

I initially noted 20 lineups, and then after I switched to a different car and the reset the machine, I checked all those lineups again, and, since they all matched, I decided to note the next five as well.

So it seems the grid cycle is actually a car cycle and you can actually have finer control over the grid than was previously thought.

If you have your game "frozen", preparing for a race, that appears to be the case. By using Special Condition races, or previews, you can change the "polarity" of your next lineup in the list, and thereby get cars from the end of one lineup combined with those from the beginning of the one following it (modulo what happens to avoid duplicates, and the even more difficult to predict cars which actually are replacements to avoid duplicates in the "normal" lineup).

Other people's lineups for that event, or other events, might not be the same as I what I list, but it seems certain that for at least some events in a given game state, the sequence of lineups after a reset is predictable, if you restrict your activities carefully before entering the event. (E.g. playing in Arcade Mode definitely sends the lineups to unknown territories. )

It appears that in my game state, the Roadster Enduro uses the same lineup patterns as the corresponding Manufacturer's event. (Mazda NR-A Roadster Cup). The progress through the list for the Manufacturer's event appears the same as the enduro. I haven't checked what happens if you combine enter/exits of these two events.

It took me a while to realize that you click the little white "halt" hand to easily achieve the no-penalty exit from the start of a series. (Green arrow, followed by appropriate dialogue works too, but it is a lot slower going!)

I've noticed this too, ESPECIALLY with Family Cup on Le Sarthe II. Pick any road car and work it to around a 11sec performance level on the 1/4 (yes, even FF's will do this!!) and pick any difficulty from 7 through to 10. You get the same range of cars (NSX-R LM, W12 Nardo are two I can instantly remember) but the way the AI drives it is completely different on each level. You only get 1/2 a challenge even on 10.

Mafs!!

I've been in the habit of seeking certain lineups when I enter many GT4 events. I prefer ones in which the fastest cars start in 4th or 5th place, because by the middle or end of a 2 or 3 lap race, there's sometimes a possibility of multiple Ai cars competing with you for 1st place (rather than one "jackrabbit" getting far ahead of everyone else).

This means I'm frequently resetting my line-ups.

Also, in the 1000 Miles! events, I usually seek a line up that includes the Nissan Fairlady, Lotus Elan, and sometimes the Ginetta G4. Sometimes the Alfa Giulia. It's not easy getting any of these to show up together, and when they do, there's usually an AC or a Jag that ruins the slower paced races I'm seeking.

So when I'm resetting and resetting and not seeing what I want, I'll leave the 1000 Miles races and buy a set of wheels, or I'll do something that makes one day pass to the next. And eventually I will find the line-up I'm seeking.

So I think each day presents a number of possible cars that can show up, but these line-ups are somewhat limited. Sorry if that's confusing.

By resetting lineups you mean simply enter/exit the event?

Doing something in Arcade Mode appears to me the best means of quickly causing massive changes to the lineups you see.

SportWagon

By resetting lineups you mean simply enter/exit the event?

Click to expand...

Yes. I enter the race, look at the line-up, and if it's not what I want, I immediately exit without actually racing or practicing. This way, it's still on the same day.

Doing something in Arcade Mode appears to me the best means of quickly causing massive changes to the lineups you see.

Click to expand...

Wow. I didn't know that. Have to try it in the future. 👍

Yesterday I was testing different MX-5 Miata models for the Roadster Endurance. (Including entering the race to check A-spec value). The first lineup, at least was as I expected.

At one point I did something like run a race for several laps. Then I exited the event, and I think I at that time went back and "cleared" the prize to make enter/exit faster.

Then I looked at the next 4 lineups (i.e. ending with lineup 5), and they appeared as I expected. Lineup six (the one I'm most interested in), however, had the expected cars but in a different order. And the next lineup was unrecognizable.

However, after I reset the console, and entered the race again ("clearing" the prize first), lineup six appeared as I expected it when I got there.

Parnelli Bone

Yes. I enter the race, look at the line-up, and if it's not what i want, i immediately exit without actually racing or practicing. This way, it's still on the same day.

Click to expand...

From every time I've done it, it's gone forward a day. The only ways I've found that you CAN do it is the good ol' reset/restart method AND/OR going to a different race for that particular day only (so do 1 race in a single event series, no championships), then the next day go back to what you would've raced on.

I know on Special Conditions Ice Arena Hard Reverse, you normally race the Scooby WRC '03, but if you reset it or race the Hard & Hard Reverse on two non-consecutive days, you can actually get the Toyota Corolla '98 to come up on both circuits. Much easier competition (78pts. vs 130+pts.) as I'm trying to do ALL the races with a bone stock Spec-C....group N style, buying nothing but Dirt & Snow tyres and NOS.

Mafs!!

mafia_boy

From every time I've done it, it's gone forward a day. The only ways I've found that you CAN do it is the good ol' reset/restart method AND/OR going to a different race for that particular day only (so do 1 race in a single event series, no championships), then the next day go back to what you would've raced on.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I've done that too (gone to a different race to push the day forward).

I know on Special Conditions Ice Arena Hard Reverse, you normally race the Scooby WRC '03, but if you reset it or race the Hard & Hard Reverse on two non-consecutive days, you can actually get the Toyota Corolla '98 to come up on both circuits. Much easier competition (78pts. vs 130+pts.) as I'm trying to do ALL the races with a bone stock Spec-C....group N style, buying nothing but Dirt & Snow tyres and NOS.

Mafs!!

Click to expand...

Cool. in my case, I'll wind up going for the harder races I think...we'll see, though.

Smallhorses

This is what I've found....
From a console reset:
If you enter a race in a particular car, you will face a particular lineup, and after that a set of lineups depending on the number of different AI opponents there are available.

If you reset the console without saving, and enter the same race in the same car, the 1st lineup and subsequent lineups will be the same.

If you race once, save the game and then reset the console, and enter the same car in the same race, the 1st lineup generally (but not always) remains the same, but the subsequent lineups will also change after a certain number of enter/exits. Can be as early as the 2nd lineup, or as late (in my experience) as the 9th lineup, after which the lineups you see will vary compared to those that you saw to begin with.

Click to expand...

I'd found the lineups for the few events I was interested in were more consistent than that.

But eventually they changed. And I think I may have found a key factor.

I'd bought cars and my lineups stayed the same. Even the apparently shared lineup for the Roadster Enduro and corresponding Manufacturer's Race.

But the other days they changed. And that seems to be linked to the fact I finally bought a car after finishing a race, rather than always either purchasing or racing immediately after a reset. Since the race in question was an A-spec'd Roadster 4 Hour race, I wasn't going to redo it.

So, it seems to me...

If you want to keep your lineups consistent and familiar, then reset the console frequently, and never do more than one significant thing before saving and reloading. I.e. if you buy a car, reload before you race. If you race, reload before going to buy cars. Now it's possible this is not sufficient, but it seems consistent with my usual behaviour versus the other night.

On the other hand, if you want your lineups to vary and be unfamiliar, then it seems a good idea to keep doing several things (a combination of races and purchases) before ever reloading the game.

I should add to this more notes from the Nürburgring 24, including details of how I got a lineup with no JGTC and yet no Chaparral, by entering a "Special Conditions" event so as to offset the lineups I had recorded by two.

Edit...
I did post the details at...
Massive Mediocre Eyeful Mountain Meander (A-spec Nürb 24) at
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101639

I believe the game approximates your car's performance and places it in a category of predefined, similarly-performing cars.

For instance, I will almost always have the exact same Dodge Viper SRT10 GTS-R in the grid for Track Meets and Family Cup races when driving my Ridox Supra. Likewise, my Impreza has always met the exact same silver Audi RS6 Avant.

For lighter-tuned cars, I've always been met with the same, up-tuned AI opponents (RX-7, GT-R) in even the same paint colour.

I'm talking about races other than Family Cups.