Rule changes poll with better options

Tyre King · May 16, 2006

As I said in the first Rule changes thread, this is a thorny subject and a simple YES/NO poll just isn't enough.

So here is a 5 option poll!

I would like it to be just a poll, please keep the discussion to a minimum, as that is being taken care of in the first thread.

MOST IMPORTANT!

Please pick 2 options only!

Thanks in advance

Neil

fasj6418 · May 16, 2006

ok, i think you have to edit the first post. still no poll to vote for

Small_Fryz · May 16, 2006

1st you need the poll? :dunce:

Tedehur · May 16, 2006

I hope you can add a poll to this thread, Neil, because I can't.
Or else just create a new one and I'll move this one to the archive.

Tyre King · May 16, 2006

Small_Fryz
1st you need the poll?

First,

What part of " no posting or discussion is required" do you not understand Dion? :dunce:

Second,

The thread goes up straight away, then the poll gets added afterwards!

And as You cannot edit or change the actual poll questions once you hit submit, I took my time to get them right!

Poll's up! refresh and it should be there.

Neil

Tedehur · May 16, 2006

New poll
Indeed, this will hopefully give us a better visibility.
Yet, I think that the main questions have been thoroughly discussed and some things are perfectly clear :

back channel discussion is widely used
there's no way to stop it

Lap time discussion and back channel
My main concern is to keep the WRS as successful / challenging / interesting / friendly (cross out what doesn't apply) as it is / has always been / used to be (same remark), and I think that a way to achieve this is to keep the discussion in one unique place, since parallel discussions weaken the main thread and the whole series itself IMO.
Tradition is something else. It's true that it has always been a special feature of the WRS not to allow final time discussions, and I like to keep traditions going whenever possible, as long as it is not harmful.
When changes appear to be necessary, then it's perhaps time to sacrifice some traditions.

On base of these considerations, I was ready when I posted the first poll to allow lap time discussion and replay posting.
Yet the results of the first vote have always been very close, and I was surprised to see that many people actually don't want to know what other people's laptimes are.
But giving everybody the possibility to join the back channel is the minimum we can do. Casio's link to his laptime is a good compromise IMO. People who want to know can click, people who don't want to know just don't need to click.

Replay posting
I don't make a difference between discussing lap times and posting replays. Other people do and that's ok for me, don't get me wrong, but I don't make any.
Plus I secretely hope that posting replays during the week will reduce the time needed to have requested replays posted and checked when the week is over. I dream of a race where all replays will be posted and checked within 24 hours after deadline, so that we can proceed with the next race.
I'm pretty bored to have to deal with 4 weeks at the same time : the next one being prepared, the current one being raced, the last one being checked and the one before waiting for some late replay or checking.

Time rounding
Honestly I think it's asking too much to racers. Posting replays is already considered a chore by some of us, so why ask them to stop and think before posting their time ? I think that the proportion of unrounded or wrongly rounded times will be so high that we're gonna be editing posts all week long.

Just my 0.02 .

Kent · May 16, 2006

I don't like this... It seems to me like this is just another attempt to get the rule change made since the other thread clearly showed (through votes as well as posts) that the rule change had the WRS split 50/50 if not worse.

I say no again but this time with prejudice (as I feel this is just a "recount" sort of attitude and not a necessary means of discussion).

👎

I suppose I could just go with the old saying...
If at first you don't succeed try, try again!
(but I don't like that idea when it comes to subjects like this and voting)

(just seems like this is a "votes didn't go the way he, she, or I, would have liked and so I say "do over")

Small_Fryz · May 16, 2006

Ballstothewall
First,

What part of " no posting or discussion is required" do you not understand Dion?

The.. ah... No.. bit? :scared:

Oops..

Edit, i agree with Cyril 👍

Kent · May 16, 2006

btw, I don't see how you can one without the other...

If you post a good time it is inevitable that you will have backchannel discussion erupt in order to get that replay out in the open.
So in my opinion, one without the other will probably make the situation even worse than could be.

None the less, I still see this as a "the change didn't work out in the first poll and so let's do it again to get results that support the change."

I can't put more into this right now (gotta go to work).
Until next time,
👎

Tedehur · May 16, 2006

Kent
I don't like this... It seems to me like this is just another attempt to get the rule change made since the other thread clearly showed (through votes as well as posts) that the rule change had the WRS split 50/50 if not worse.

I say no again but this time with prejudice (as I feel this is just a "recount" sort of attitude and not a necessary means of discussion).

👎

I suppose I could just go with the old saying...
If at first you don't succeed try, try again!
(but I don't like that idea when it comes to subjects like this and voting)

(just seems like this is a "votes didn't go the way he, she, or I, would have liked and so I say "do over")

It's not this at all, Kent.
The first poll shows indeed an almost perfect balance.
But with people saying they'd like to change their vote, or people saying that they are ok with laptimes and not with replays or the other way around, it's important to be more specific to know which option has 51% of votes and which one has only 49%.
You were living in Florida in 2000, I'm sure you get my point

Kent · May 16, 2006

And I'm sure you would understand that this isn't a presidential race where we have to make a change.

This is a forced rule change suggestion, there is no rule in the WRS saying we had to vote on this rule change.

The comparsion makes me realize that it is possible that 49% of us ARE going to be alienated.

I already feel so and am very sad to see the character lost in the wrs to the idea of being just like every other open leaderbaord.

I thought the comparison to other limited duration races (like bc) would have been enough to show that the WRS should be a T time only discussion. ( in bc you don't discuss final times unless it's on back channel, generally speaking of course).

In any case, I'm done here.
I can see that the "No" vote is not going to pass even if it is the majority (which I doubt it will be this time since it is most likely that the "Yes" voters are going to be the most persistant and willing to stick around for the fight).

Atleast this event will teach me just what it feels like to feel as if you wrongfully lost a vote. 👎

fasj6418 · May 16, 2006

voted yes for both replays and full lap times. because i always tried to take this WRS like it was a real life racing championship.

in real life, you always watch and know lap times and stuff. i didn´t read the whole other thread, but to me, there´s no reason to hide times. lets see how this question develops

daan · May 16, 2006

fasj6418
in real life, you always watch and know lap times and stuff. i didn´t read the whole other thread, but to me, there´s no reason to hide times.

But JPM doesn't watch Kimi's time and then submit his own time as 1/10th of a second faster, does he? No, JPM then has to go out and get his lap independently timed.

IMO, knowing times, and seeing replays (which not everyone can watch anyway, and that's not very fair), makes it easier for guys to come straight in and cheat.

Voted No twice

Small_Fryz · May 16, 2006

daan
But JPM doesn't watch Kimi's time and then submit his own time as 1/10th of a second faster, does he? No, JPM then has to go out and get his lap independently timed.

IMO, knowing times, and seeing replays (which not everyone can watch anyway, and that's not very fair), makes it easier for guys to come straight in and cheat.

Voted No twice

Cheating is getting harder and harder to do, with 85 - 90% of drivers with maxdrives, it wont take long to spot them.

Tedehur · May 16, 2006

Neil, this poll is meant to be easier for me to analyse, so I let you remove from that the null votes (like people who checked all 5 options) before I try to do something with the results

(Thanks Dan for using the multiple vote to its maximum extent

)

Tyre King · May 16, 2006

Well, Dan voted 'NO' in the other poll, so I would say he is just messin around.

Take his 'yes' votes off and that would make it:

10 - yes to full laptimes
03 - yes to partial laptimes
10 - no to lap times

07 - yes to replays
11 - no to replays

So far, with 22 voters.

And can I re-itterate please!

TWO VOTES ONLY PLEASE!👍

Neil

Laurence5905 · May 16, 2006

I personally don't have a problem either way -- if the rules change or they don't, I'm still not going anywhere... I did vote "YES" to posting accurate final-times and to posting replays, however.

But, speaking for myself only here, it's my opinion that most folks who voted "yes" will accept the status-quo if the rule doesn't change. (I know I will -- I'm not leaving if I don't "get my way," so to speak.)

I'd bet that most of the "yes" voters will agree... No reason to dump the WRS if the rules don't change... If a very clear majority votes in favor of changing the rules, then change them. If it's not a very clear majority, then leave them as they are...

Just my $0.02 worth...

Sphinx · May 16, 2006

I don't really understand why another poll should be created at this stage. The original vote has yet to finish (2 days left) As I like to hear the argument from both sides before voting I feel that my vote is deemed to be worthless by some.

Why could we not wait for the original poll to finish, anaylise the results and then create another poll if needed. At the least allow those entitled to vote to have their say first. Bloody nerve of it :irked:

ferrari_chris · May 16, 2006

Two NO's from me.

I like the WRS how it is now and don't want it to change. Simple as that.

Kelly · May 17, 2006

ferrari_chris
Two NO's from me.

I like the WRS how it is now and don't want it to change. Simple as that.

Same here, if it ain't broke then don't try fix it!

If someone feels like they are loosing out by not knowing someone elses time before the results then they should make friends with their closest rival and discuss out of the the thread, simple as that. 💡

I know I haven't raced in ages here, and I also know that I can benefit from ghost laps from Ron when I do race, but I can only do what my skill permits me! And for what it's worth I only gain a couple of tenths at most from this method.
I prefer to chase my own ghost and improve on my own mistakes and not from someone elses perfections. If that makes any sense :dunce:

At least with my own ghost I have a chance at beating it over the finish line :lol:

Cap'n Jack · May 17, 2006

I say yes to full lap time posting and replay posting.

Even if there is a greater risk of people cheating, they can still be caught out, as Dion said above. So, IMO, theres pretty much no point.

Tyre King · May 17, 2006

I think the reasons for the second poll are becoming clearer now!

After removing Dan's 'erronious' no votes (on the basis that he voted YES in the first poll) the results so far are this:

As per the 1st poll.
YES : 33 (55%)
NO : 27 (45%)
So fairly even, as before

But on the new poll:

YES to lap times (full/partial) : 22 (64.7%)
NO to any form of lap time : 12 (35.3%)

Yes to replays : 11 (42.3%)
NO to replays : 15 (57.7%)

So the even though the votes would be fairly even if just taken as a yes/no poll (as before) the results are now diverging to give a clearer picture of how we, the great unwashed WRS masses, feel on this subject.
Bare in mind that a vote for partial lap times is still a vote for lap time discussion and is more a 'refinement' of the same choice.

Obviously the final say is down to Cyril, and whatever happens it's cool with me. And when the picture is clear enough for Cyril to make his decision, the poll will be closed.

Neil

Edit: corrected @ 11.18 (Gmt+1) 18/5/6

holl01 · May 17, 2006

Ballstothewall
Well, Dan voted 'NO' in the other poll, so I would say he is just messin around.

Take his 'yes' votes off and that would make it:

10 - yes to full laptimes
03 - yes to partial laptimes
10 - no to lap times

07 - yes to replays
11 - no to replays

So far, with 22 voters.

And can I re-itterate please!

TWO VOTES ONLY PLEASE!👍

Neil

i actually voted yes to lap time revealing in the other poll, so u can adjust that to yes, yes please

Tyre King · May 17, 2006

Ok Dan, sorry mate!

So let me get this right..... YES to lap times, YES to replays.

Is that right?

Neil

Tyre King · May 18, 2006

stat's corrected in post 2 above!

circa86 · May 18, 2006

i completely agree with Kent, if people start posting replays and lapttimes I won't be posting at all in the threads, i will just post my time.

being able to post laptimes in threads is basically just a big F YOU! to everyone without a maxdrive.

Dr_Watson · May 18, 2006

Flat-out
New poll
Time rounding
Honestly I think it's asking too much to racers. Posting replays is already considered a chore by some of us, so why ask them to stop and think before posting their time ? I think that the proportion of unrounded or wrongly rounded times will be so high that we're gonna be editing posts all week long.

i liked that one myself... because i like the idea of "time innuendo"
by that i mean i like the idea of being able to say "ooh, i got a 1'08 last night"
rather than saying "i got a 1'08.754"
but I personally think its more fun to have a foggy goal vs a specific target.

holl01 · May 18, 2006

Ballstothewall
Ok Dan, sorry mate!

So let me get this right..... YES to lap times, YES to replays.

Is that right?

Neil

that appears correct, from my view point, i just played billiards :dopey:

and now walking to bed, made contact with pillow, and now sleep.

Sjaak · May 18, 2006

Ballstothewall
Bare in mind that a vote for partial lap times is still a vote for lap time discussion and is more a 'refinement' of the same choice.

It could be that I see it all wrong again but the voters for partial laptimes obviously dont wanna see full laptimes.
So you can't add both numbers up because now you can say,"the pro full laptimes and the partial laptimes votes are in the majority but there are more full lap times voters thus the outcome will be that it would be allowed to discuss full laptimes."

All I can find in the first post was the sentence "this a 5 option poll" and nothing about a four option poll.

I hope it is still a bit understandable :crazy:

I'm a bit dizzy ATM :lol:

Tyre King · May 23, 2006

Ok!

69 votes total
As per 1st poll

37 - yes (53.62%)
32 - no (46.38%)

New poll 5 option

17 - full lap (41.46%)
08 - part lap(19.51%)
15 - no lap (39.03%)

12 - yes replay (41.38%)
17 - no replay (58.63%)

If we combine yes to lap time votes (Controversial, but logical, maybe?)

25 - yes to lap times (60.97%)
15 - no to lap times (39.03%)

Up to Cyril now, as there has only been two votes in 4 days. So I am gonna close the poll and the thread.

Later Dudes

Neil

Rule changes poll with better options

What would you like to do? Think carefully!

YES to FULL lap-time posting

YES to rounded up/down lap-time posting

NO to lap-time posting of any kind

YES to replay posting

No to replay posting

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