Top Gear: will the Veyron break the CCXs track record?

the Interceptor · Jul 8, 2006

It's been anounced that the Bugatti Veyron will appear on the next episode of Top Gear, which is due in about a week. Of course, it will also be taken around the track (actually it has been, but noone knows the results yet).

The question is: will it beat the Koenigsegg CCX, which is currently sitting at the top with an 1:17.6?

Some say yes, some say no. What do you think, and why?

But please: no flaming, no swearing, no fanboyism ... okay, maybe a little bit of that. Thanks! 👍

The poll will be closed right after the show, cause then we'll know the answer anyway. :sly:

Regards
the Interceptor

Dave A · Jul 8, 2006

I can see it being a possibility, not 100% sure but I'll vote yes because I don't like taking the easy option.

Sting · Jul 8, 2006

Nope, sorry. Not gonna happen. The CCX will stay on top.

the Interceptor · Jul 8, 2006

Actually I'm not entirely certain it will, and I usually don't bet if I'm not, but in this case, I'll defy logic by saying that the Veyron will make it to the top.

amp88 · Jul 8, 2006

I'm saying no.

Poverty · Jul 8, 2006

yes, easily, unless it blows up or something

Dave A · Jul 8, 2006

I think it will come down to the tyres, it depends if track performance has been traded off for speed durability at all. But from what I've read about it, that doesn't seem to be the case, but we'll wait and see. It should be close either way.

MustangSVT · Jul 9, 2006

I'm not sure. Maybe it will or maybe it will fail miserably. Can't wait to see the episode with it.

Slick Rick · Jul 9, 2006

I don't think it will, its much heavier than the CCX and the track is too small to let the Veyron stretch its legs and use its massive power effectively

niky · Jul 9, 2006

Same here... the track is too small, with too many 2nd gear (or lower for these superpowered cars) constant radius turns for such a heavy car.

And wasn't the CCX time performed with a tacked-on wing? (forgive me, I haven't watched it yet... hasn't been released here, and my internet connection is too lousy at the moment for bittorrent) That fact alone would make it faster around the track...

Still, I could be wrong. :lol:

I often am.

G.T · Jul 9, 2006

I say yes. I know there isn't too many straights on the Top Gear track, but the sheer acceleration of the car will kill the CCX. I bet it wont be too bad around the corners either.

BUT, if it rains, well, I guess the CCX will stay up there.

Roo09511 · Jul 9, 2006

I say no, only because of the massive weight difference. It's at least 1200 pounds more than the CCX...

Danny · Jul 9, 2006

I'll say no because the script doesn't call for it.

Jedi2016 · Jul 9, 2006

It's impossible to say. Many reports have said that the car handles surprisingly well considering it's weight, but there's no footage or laptimes to actually demonstrate how good it handles.

The naysayers need to remember that, though... by all accounts, it handles a hell of a lot better than you folks are thinking.

Also remember the numbers... the Veyron is blindingly fast, even compared to the CCX. Sure, it won't be able to get up to it's stop speed, but it'll be able to rocket out of the corners like no other car before it. Wouldn't surprise me if it was pushing 180-190 at the fast parts of the track. We haven't seen a car this powerful on the track before. Even cars with variances in power (600-800hp, whatever), all have acceleration profiles that are about the same.. 0-60 times are roughly the same for a lot of them, 0-100 times are roughly the same. But not the Veryron.. it's quicker. A lot quicker.

Don't let the weight fool you.. she's a monster.

Will she beat the laptime? Don't know. Find out in a week, I guess.

niky · Jul 9, 2006

Still, the big question is: Will she be able to put down all that power? Yes, the car is blindingly fast on a highway or maybe even a race course, but the TG track is very much like a road course (despite being at an airfield). But then, it's anyone's guess.

ultrabeat
I'll say no because the script doesn't call for it.

And that guess is as good as any.

the Interceptor · Jul 9, 2006

I don't think they'd send her out in the rain by the way, cause if she really has a chance to get up there, they won't do that "4 seconds off"-nonsense.

One of the keys is the Veyrons AWD in my eyes. You'll know that most of the high-powered supercars struggle to get their power down out of the slow curves. The Veyron will 'explode' out of the corners. :scared:

Regards
the Interceptor

amp88 · Jul 9, 2006

Jedi2016
The naysayers need to remember that, though... by all accounts, it handles a hell of a lot better than you folks are thinking.

How do you know how well people think it handles?

It's been said it handles well for what it is, but at the end of the day is is still very heavy and you can't cheat physics (doesn't stop Porsche from trying though).

Jedi2016
Also remember the numbers... the Veyron is blindingly fast, even compared to the CCX. Sure, it won't be able to get up to it's stop speed, but it'll be able to rocket out of the corners like no other car before it. Wouldn't surprise me if it was pushing 180-190 at the fast parts of the track.

Yes, it is blindingly fast, but I think you're being very optimistic indeed. The Renault R24 they tested never got anywhere near top revs in 6th gear when it went round, so I'd estimate its top speed to be well below 200mph and probably closer to 180 or so. I can't remember if they mentioned on the programme how quick it went and I can't find that episode, so if they mentioned in the episode how quickly the F1 car went I'd like to know.

The Veyron is quick, but it's not as quick as a modern F1 car in acceleration up to 180mph, not by a long way. If the F1 car was struggling to get to 180 then there's no way the Veyron is getting close to that. It might top 150, but I'd wait and see about that. Ok, the F1 car was on inters and the track was slightly greasy but that wouldn't really dent the straightline acceleration of the F1 car, as the traction control can't be heard kicking in 2nd gear or above on the straights.

Jedi2016
We haven't seen a car this powerful on the track before. Even cars with variances in power (600-800hp, whatever), all have acceleration profiles that are about the same.. 0-60 times are roughly the same for a lot of them, 0-100 times are roughly the same. But not the Veryron.. it's quicker. A lot quicker.

I'm not sure where you're getting the "roughly the same 0-100 times" for cars with between 600 and 800bhp. The SLR and Enzo make a good comparison here. The Enzo has over 650bhp and the SLR has 617bhp. From Autocar's April 2004 0-100mph-0 test, the Enzo did 0-60mph in 3.52 seconds and 0-100mph in 6.69 seconds. The SLR did 0-60mph in 3.82 seconds and 0-100mph in 7.70 seconds. There isn't much difference in the 0-60mph times, that's true, but look at the difference in 60-100mph times. The Enzo takes 3.17 seconds and the SLR takes 3.88 seconds. That's a difference of about 20%. I wouldn't call that roughly the same, would you?

the Interceptor · Jul 9, 2006

amp88
I'm not sure where you're getting the "roughly the same 0-100 times" for cars with between 600 and 800bhp. The SLR and Enzo make a good comparison here. The Enzo has over 650bhp and the SLR has 617bhp. From Autocar's April 2004 0-100mph-0 test, the Enzo did 0-60mph in 3.52 seconds and 0-100mph in 6.69 seconds. The SLR did 0-60mph in 3.82 seconds and 0-100mph in 7.70 seconds. There isn't much difference in the 0-60mph times, that's true, but look at the difference in 60-100mph times. The Enzo takes 3.17 seconds and the SLR takes 3.88 seconds. That's a difference of about 20%. I wouldn't call that roughly the same, would you?

I would!

Anyway, the Top Gear lap includes a standing start, which is another situation the Veyron can gain time in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fdb8FdXfPU&search=veyron

Jedi2016 · Jul 9, 2006

Why the comparison to an F1 car? I never hinted that it would handle that good.

The Veyron, according to a quick Google, can go 60-100 in 2.7 seconds. It goes from 0-100 a full second faster than an Enzo. The thing's a rocket.

As for how well it handles? Every report and review I've read said the same thing.. that the reviewers were amazed at it's handling ability. It's definitely not a clunker, and don't expect it to have to slow down to 10mph to take the Hammerhead.

Clarkson estimated that the Enzo may have been going roughly 160mph on the back stretch. With the speed and power of the Veyron, I expect it to go noticably faster than this.

You'll also note that I never once said the Veyron would take the top spot. I'm simply arguring against the idea that nothing can beat the winged CCX.

Poverty · Jul 9, 2006

check the automotive forum of gtplanet for the 0-100-0 test in which the veyron beats everything.

G.T · Jul 9, 2006

Poverty
check the automotive forum of gtplanet for the 0-100-0 test in which the veyron beats everything.

That's a straight line test, nothing to do with corners. The CCX may very well catch up through the corners, but we don't know at this point.

amp88 · Jul 9, 2006

Jedi2016
Why the comparison to an F1 car? I never hinted that it would handle that good.

Read my post and you'll see I said nothing comparing the handling of the Veyron to the handling of the F1 car. To do such a thing would be laughable. I said that the F1 car didn't get anywhere near the top of 6th gear on any part of the track, so it was probably 'only' going 180mph and I didn't think the Veyron would get anywhere near that.

Jedi2016
The Veyron, according to a quick Google, can go 60-100 in 2.7 seconds. It goes from 0-100 a full second faster than an Enzo. The thing's a rocket.

Yes, I realise it's quick and I'm in agreement with you here.

Jedi2016
As for how well it handles? Every report and review I've read said the same thing.. that the reviewers were amazed at it's handling ability. It's definitely not a clunker, and don't expect it to have to slow down to 10mph to take the Hammerhead.

Again, I didn't disagree with you here at all. I realise it handles well, but only for what it is. It isn't an Elise (or an Enzo for that matter).

Jedi2016
Clarkson estimated that the Enzo may have been going roughly 160mph on the back stretch. With the speed and power of the Veyron, I expect it to go noticably faster than this.

According to this, the Enzo takes 13.1 seconds to go from 0-150mph. I'd be surprised if it got to 150 on the TG Test track considering the slow corners leading onto the long straights and the 'obstacles' in the longer of the two straight sections (follow through and that tyre barrier).

Jedi2016
You'll also note that I never once said the Veyron would take the top spot. I'm simply arguring against the idea that nothing can beat the winged CCX.

And you'll note I never said you did

Poverty · Jul 9, 2006

G.T
That's a straight line test, nothing to do with corners. The CCX may very well catch up through the corners, but we don't know at this point.

I doubt it, the ccx isnt the best handling of the hypercars by a long shot, its first due to its brute power.

the Interceptor · Jul 9, 2006

amp88
According to this, the Enzo takes 13.1 seconds to go from 0-150mph. I'd be surprised if it got to 150 on the TG Test track considering the slow corners leading onto the long straights and the 'obstacles' in the longer of the two straight sections (follow through and that tyre barrier).

I don't. I've seen the Liana do almost 100 mph after the followthrough. Additionally, a lot of those 13.1 seconds are down to the standing start. Doing a rolling start, which is the same as coming out of a corner, you'll shave off some of those seconds already.

Regards
the Interceptor

Dave A · Jul 9, 2006

That's true, it's not meant to be a car of finesse like the Enzo can take corners. You have to remember as well, the Veyron will be like all cars taken to the track, have any settings that could hinder it, off. Or settigns that could benefitt it, on. That means it will be in handling mode with the big wing up so it will be producing a hell of a lot of downforce. I can also see the Veyron hitting in excess of 160mph on the back straight, but the Stig will probably have to come off the throttle for the follow through, it WILL be travelling faster than anything else road legal ever has at that point. I'm looking forwards to this a lot.

amp88 · Jul 9, 2006

live4speed
That means it will be in handling mode with the big wing up so it will be producing a hell of a lot of downforce.

The Veyron produces 770lbs of downforce (roughly 350kgs) in Handling mode at 230mph, according to here. At reasonable speeds (between 60 and 120mph), the amount of downforce is going to be next to negligible (less than 100 kilos). Even at 150mph you're not looking at a huge amount. Downforce on most road cars isn't really going to increase cornering speeds, just high speed stability.

Dave A · Jul 9, 2006

It'll be enough to affect the performance positively, it was notably so in the CCX and while I don't know what that produces, I do know that for a road car the Veyron is supposed to generate a hell of a lot. It needs to and the downforce will affect the car more than the CCX's wing, the Veyron has an adjustable front splitter, and in handling mode it adjusts to aid the cars handling, as does the rear wing.

amp88 · Jul 9, 2006

live4speed
It'll be enough to affect the performance positively, it was notably so in the CCX and while I don't know what that produces, I do know that for a road car the Veyron is supposed to generate a hell of a lot. It needs to and the downforce will affect the car more than the CCX's wing, the Veyron has an adjustable front splitter, and in handling mode it adjusts to aid the cars handling, as does the rear wing.

The wing on the CCX was put there for high speed stability and not to increase cornering speeds, per se. Yes, the cornering speeds did increase along with the stability, but that would have been a secondary concern. For a road car, the Veyron does produce a lot of downforce, but everything's relative. When you read about downforce in most road cars, think of it as PR speak to a certain extent and take everything with a pinch of salt. When most car makers say they've increased downforce by 50% they're talking in tens of kilos at max speed usually. The Veyron, Enzo and Carrera GT are notable exceptions to this (each making hundreds of kilos of downforce at high speed), but at more sane speeds (up to about 150mph), the amount of downforce they're generating isn't a lot in comparison to the actual vehicle weight. As I've said before, the weight of a Veyron (not it's kerb weight) is close to 2100kgs. The maximum downforce of 350kgs is only about 15% of its total weight (and remember that's at 230mph, not a speed that it'll get close to on the track).

Dave A · Jul 9, 2006

The wing WAS there to increase cornering potential on the CCX, that is precisely the reason they put it on and precisely what TopGear said the car needed to help in the corners and it's precisely what it did do, it helped the car in the corners. It was fine at high speeds in the straights. The cars power was unusable in corners so they put the wing on after TopGears reccomendation for one and what do you know, it's power is now usable in corners. So the downforce had a notable positive effect, it was a whole 5 seconds worth of positive effect, so if the Veyron at the same speeds as the CCX produces more downforce than the CCX, if it also has tyres more capable of handling the power and a track than the CCX, I see absolutely no reason it can't beat it. Personally I think the tyres will be the key, and I think your oversimplifying physics far too much, weight alone doesn't determine how a car will handle on a track, you can have a heavy car that handles superbly thanks to expert setups and good parts and tyres or you can have a light weight car that handles like crap.

Flerbizky · Jul 9, 2006

Slick Rick
I don't think it will, its much heavier than the CCX and the track is too small to let the Veyron stretch its legs and use its massive power effectively

Agreed !... Had the track been HUGE with long straights, maybe, maybe not. But on the small TG track - No way...

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