Top Gear: will the Veyron break the CCXs track record?

[amp88]

The wing WAS there to increase cornering potential on the CCX, that is precisely the reason they put it on and precisely what TopGear said the car needed to help in the corners and it's precisely what it did do, it helped the car in the corners. It was fine at high speeds in the straights.

The wing was added to improve stability, the car was obviously nervous at the back end (Stig spinning is an illustration of that).

The cars power was unusable in corners so they put the wing on after TopGears reccomendation for one and what do you know, it's power is now usable in corners.

In reality the wing will probably have added around about 100 kilos at the speeds it was being used on the track. 100 kilos wouldn't have fundamentally changed the car's ability to put its power down, the problem in the corners wasn't putting the power down, but high speed stability.

So the downforce had a notable positive effect, it was a whole 5 seconds worth of positive effect

Yes, but you're missing the point. The decrease in laptime had so much more to do with high speed stability than with the abiltity of the car to put its power down. When the car was struggling with putting its power down it would have been generating so little downforce as to be considered negligible for all intents and purposes. Only when the speed built would the downforce build and at 130mph the car would have had much more of a problem with high speed stability than traction.

so if the Veyron at the same speeds as the CCX produces more downforce than the CCX, if it also has tyres more capable of handling the power and a track than the CCX, I see absolutely no reason it can't beat it. Personally I think the tyres will be the key, and I think your oversimplifying physics far too much, weight alone doesn't determine how a car will handle on a track, you can have a heavy car that handles superbly thanks to expert setups and good parts and tyres or you can have a light weight car that handles like crap.

Say, for a moment, that the Veyron and CCX were running on exactly the same chassis with exactly the same tyres, suspension etc. Then say that each car was its original weight. I can only find a dry weight for the CCX, so let's use that (1180 kilos) and the Veyron's dry weight of 1888 kilos. If both cars generated the same amount of downforce (call it 200 kilos for ease of calculation), this would contribute 17% to the CCX and only 11% to the Veyron. So, because it's so much heavier (the thick end of 900 kilos), it'll have to be generating a hell of a lot more downforce for it to provide the same amount of extra grip in the corners. Now, going back to the differences in chassis, suspension, tyres etc it's true that the Veyron does have slightly wider rear tyres than the CCX (365 vs 335), the CCX has the slightly wider front tyres (255 vs 245). Also, don't forget that the Veyron runs on the (arguably) compromised run flat tyres whereas the CCX runs on Michelin Pilot Sport 2s. Of course I'm oversimplifying Physics too much, but even if I were to research vehicle dynamics for 4 years and come in sprouting formulae and reams of equations firstly no-one would understand it and secondly no-one would read it.

 

[the Interceptor]

Say, for a moment, that the Veyron and CCX were running on exactly the same chassis with exactly the same tyres, suspension etc. Then say that each car was its original weight. I can only find a dry weight for the CCX, so let's use that (1180 kilos) and the Veyron's dry weight of 1888 kilos. If both cars generated the same amount of downforce (call it 200 kilos for ease of calculation), this would contribute 17% to the CCX and only 11% to the Veyron. So, because it's so much heavier (the thick end of 900 kilos), it'll have to be generating a hell of a lot more downforce for it to provide the same amount of extra grip in the corners.

Agreed, but don't forget that the extra weight of the Veyron does not only pull it out of the corner, but also increase grip, cause it presses the tires on the road.

In my book, the Veyron will be slower in the corners than other cars. But the brutal acceleration off the line and the AWD grip out of the corners, combined with the sheer power, will bring this thing to the top.

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Poverty]

what time did the slr get around the track?

 

[Dave A]

The wing was added to improve stability, the car was obviously nervous at the back end (Stig spinning is an illustration of that).

Yes, it was nervous coming out of the corners. Maybe you are right, but on TopGear they were pretty clear that it was the unusable power holding the car back.

Say, for a moment, that the Veyron and CCX were running on exactly the same chassis with exactly the same tyres, suspension etc. Then say that each car was its original weight. I can only find a dry weight for the CCX, so let's use that (1180 kilos) and the Veyron's dry weight of 1888 kilos. If both cars generated the same amount of downforce (call it 200 kilos for ease of calculation), this would contribute 17% to the CCX and only 11% to the Veyron. So, because it's so much heavier (the thick end of 900 kilos), it'll have to be generating a hell of a lot more downforce for it to provide the same amount of extra grip in the corners. Now, going back to the differences in chassis, suspension, tyres etc it's true that the Veyron does have slightly wider rear tyres than the CCX (365 vs 335), the CCX has the slightly wider front tyres (255 vs 245). Also, don't forget that the Veyron runs on the (arguably) compromised run flat tyres whereas the CCX runs on Michelin Pilot Sport 2s. Of course I'm oversimplifying Physics too much, but even if I were to research vehicle dynamics for 4 years and come in sprouting formulae and reams of equations firstly no-one would understand it and secondly no-one would read it.

True, but were not talking about two cars with the same everythig but weight, were talking two very, very different cars, with very different drivetrains and the heavier one being the faster one and the one with 4wd and the one with higher downfoce levels. The tyre's and suspension setup can more than make up for the extra weight here. The CCX isn't the pinnacle of auto engineering, it used brute force, it doesn't handles as well as an Enzo or MC12, but it can still beat the Enzo and MC12, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Veyron can probably out handle the CCX.

 

[amp88]

what time did the slr get around the track?

http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonbbc2/laptimes/thestig/

1'20.9

Yes, it was nervous coming out of the corners. The cars chassis was good, it was putting the power down that was the problem, the car had no traction control and only rear wheel drive. Maybe you are right, but on TopGear they were pretty clear that it was the unusable power holding the car back.

Well, considering it spun in the middle of follow-through I'd call that mid-corner handling problems. I don't know if you've got that episode on your PC or on tape, but if you do, watch it again and you'll see it's between corner entry and mid-corner the back end steps out - not when he's on the power. You know how Clarkson likes to simplify things for the general public, so rather than try to explain corner-entry oversteer he just puts it down to the car not putting its power down and moves on.

True, but were not talking about two cars with the same everythig but weight, were talking two very, very different cars, with very different drivetrains and the heavier one being the faster one and the one with 4wd and the one with higher downfoce levels. The tyre's and suspension setup can more than make up for the extra weight here. The CCX isn't the pinnacle of auto engineering, it used brute force, it doesn't handles as well as an Enzo or MC12, but it can still beat the Enzo and MC12, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Veyron can probably out handle the CCX.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. The two cars are very different indeed. One's a lightweight thug originally built for crazy top speed and the other's a luxury cruiser built to have not only a high level of comfort but also outstanding performance figures. It's only my opinion, but I'm certain the CCX will corner quicker than the Veyron and will carry sufficiently enough speed into, through and out of corners that it'll narrowly beat the Veyron. I think the setup of the Veyron is too compromised for luxury, even though it has all the power in the world.

 

[Dave A]

Right and the SLR weighs roughly 1770kg's, now imagine a 1000bhp, 4wd SLR and your going faster. Now imagine a 1000bhp, 4wd car designed from the ground up to handle that power and your going even faster still.

 

[Poverty]

veyron will beat it easy I reckon. Its basically a SLR with double the power and AWD with alot more downforce.

 

[Dave A]

It's only my opinion, but I'm certain the CCX will corner quicker than the Veyron and will carry sufficiently enough speed into, through and out of corners that it'll narrowly beat the Veyron. I think the setup of the Veyron is too compromised for luxury, even though it has all the power in the world.

Well that's what this thread is for, our opinions on the matter. We'll see soon enough. I'm sure we both agree that it will be an interesting episode.

 

[amp88]

Well that's what this thread is for, our opinions on the matter. We'll see soon enough. I'm sure we both agree that it will be an interesting episode.

Indeed and may the best car win

 

[Leonidae]

I say yes. it'll be just the same as BMW130i Vs Golf R32 = Veyrons sophisticated AWD system and suspension will take care of the traction, not to mention it's underbody, that's been designed for downforce. then, there's that HUGE wing that works as airbrake, and big brakes that can stop the car from top speed in 10 seconds.

still.. it'll be a close call.. but, I'd but my money on Veyron. why? because even I could drive it at 253mph, whereas Koenigseggeggeggeggeggeggeggegg would try to kill during first three gears! thus, Stig will have no problem guiding the calm and blindingly fast Veyron around the track.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Yes, it is blindingly fast, but I think you're being very optimistic indeed. The Renault R24 they tested never got anywhere near top revs in 6th gear when it went round, so I'd estimate its top speed to be well below 200mph and probably closer to 180 or so. I can't remember if they mentioned on the programme how quick it went and I can't find that episode, so if they mentioned in the episode how quickly the F1 car went I'd like to know.

The Veyron is quick, but it's not as quick as a modern F1 car in acceleration up to 180mph, not by a long way. If the F1 car was struggling to get to 180 then there's no way the Veyron is getting close to that. It might top 150, but I'd wait and see about that. Ok, the F1 car was on inters and the track was slightly greasy but that wouldn't really dent the straightline acceleration of the F1 car, as the traction control can't be heard kicking in 2nd gear or above on the straights.

The Renault ran a Full Second under the minute, but it'd be at home on the Lotus-designed test track.

​

Ive never actually seen a 0-100 or 40-80mph stats for either the Veyron or the CCX+w, but even if the bug has far more inertia-g to contend w/ it is designed to manage this bulk & on good tyres in the dry i say the Bugatti will clear the top, depends what TheStig has on the ghettoblaster!

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

well the veyron is 6 seconds slower round the nurburgring than a ccr and 8 seconds slower than a Zonda F.

my moneys on the ccr will be faster,mainly due to the fact that with the speed of the veyron it will have to break for the followthrough,where as the ccx and zonda f just needed a slight lift,i feel it will lose the time there.

still theres been nothing said offical about this happening so i wouldnt get my hopes up too much about it....

 

[Dave A]

well the veyron is 6 seconds slower round the nurburgring than a ccr and 8 seconds slower than a Zonda F.

The Veyron has never hot lapped the Ring, that run was a test run during testing of the cars cooling, not an out and out hot lap like 90% of the times in my list. It's jsut the only lap time there is so far.

 

[amp88]

The Renault ran a Full Second under the minute, but it'd be at home on the Lotus-designed test track.

Yep, that's exactly the video I was referring to. None of the gearchange/engine speed lights ever come on in 6th gear, so it's nowhere near top speed in 6th gear.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The Veyron has never hot lapped the Ring, that run was a test run during testing of the cars cooling, not an out and out hot lap like 90% of the times in my list. It's jsut the only lap time there is so far.

even if it was testing the cooling it would still have to have been a pretty rapid lap to get them temp up to properly test the cooling


i wonder if it will even be the stig driving

 

[Poverty]

I know for a fact that the bug will beat it. But I wont say how I know as I dont want to ruin it for the others.

even if it was testing the cooling it would still have to have been a pretty rapid lap to get them temp up to properly test the cooling

Not with the veyron, it used to overheat at a standstill.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I know for a fact that the bug will beat it. But I wont say how I know as I dont want to ruin it for the others.

you cant say that without proving it

 

[markj_87]

I'm going to say it will get to the top, simply because in my opinion, they'll run it around as many times as it takes to do so. The little 'challenges' on TG, like the race with the Veyron across Europe against May and Hammond, are so scripted it's untrue. They're always impossibly close with twists along the way, and in my opinion, falsified for entertainment value. Which is fine considering the show is meant to provide entertainment.

Either way, it will once again be impossibly close whether the Veyron wins or not, but I think entertainment value demands it will be fastest.

 

[Poverty]

*breaking news* veyron beats ccx by 3 secs *breaking news*

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

and your source...

 

[Poverty]

www.VAG-poverty.co.uk

 

[Danny]

 

[Poverty]

I dont want to be a spoiler

 

[Dave A]

Pov, if you do jknow, then simply saying that you know the Veyron wins for a fact IS a spoiler and if you DO know then you've certainly spoilt it for me. It's like me saying Ripley jumps into a furness at the end of Alien 3, with or without proof that's still a poiler because it's what happens.

I'm going to say it will get to the top, simply because in my opinion, they'll run it around as many times as it takes to do so. The little 'challenges' on TG, like the race with the Veyron across Europe against May and Hammond, are so scripted it's untrue. They're always impossibly close with twists along the way, and in my opinion, falsified for entertainment value. Which is fine considering the show is meant to provide entertainment.

Either way, it will once again be impossibly close whether the Veyron wins or not, but I think entertainment value demands it will be fastest.

The races are actually real, however they do know the routes they''ll take, such as May knowing he'd have to land in North France and go round the mountains, some of the dialogue will be scripted. They just work it out before hand so they know it should be close. Not all of them have been close, the filming is often just done to make it seem so, JC won one race by over a day. And as for the panning shots outside the car, well the director re-traces the steps of the race to film thoes afterwards.

Also with the track laps, they only have a limited ammount of time they can use the car, they get as many laps in as possible for each and every car tested and then show the fastest. If it happens to rain on the day they get the Veyron, then they have no choice but to lap it in the ran because there is no day two.

 

[markj_87]

OK, thanks for that info. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me whether the challenges are authentic or not because they're entertaining and fun to watch whichever is true.

 

[G.T]

I dont want to be a spoiler

As live4speed said above, you've spoilt it for me now, you might as well give us the link. You saying that is just as much a spoiler than giving us the link.

 

[Poverty]

lol no I dont know guys. Im just toying with you, just a case of throwing out some bait from me

 

[Dave A]

Well carfeul your bait doesn't have the wrong effect .

 

[the Interceptor]

I'm not sure if I find that funny.

 

[Danoff]

I've got to see this. The veyron review should be outstanding. Too bad I can't find the show on my television.