The Keys to a fast/fun FF! **Huge Update Posts #45 & #48**

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I have been a member on GTP for awhile now and the whole time I have been here I have only found a handfull of people that have found FF cars entertaining or fast. During my recent touge setups and testing I discovered something funny. When pitting a 200hp NA Miata up against a 200hp NA Civic the two times resulted in a .2 second difference. The FWD was slower, but both times were astonishingly fast and both cars were equally fun to drive. 👍

So, what I have done here is made up a list of FF specific driving tips/techniques as well as tuning tips, and a list of my favorite FF cars to drive and tune.

Here are some basic driving tips to help you shave those extra tenths or seconds off your laptimes! :eek:

Driving Tips

Tip 1: Corner entry in FFs is key. Your line coming into the corner is more important with this drivtrain then any other, because you want to keep the least amount of steering angle input as possible to maximize cornering speed and exit traction.

Tip 2: When cornering in a FF apply the throttle early, but linearly as well. Begin accelerating as early as possible, but gradually to avoid wheelspin. Everytime you spin the wheels coming out you can easily lose tenths of a second. Tidy cornering is very mportant with this drivetrain.

Tip 3: Since most FFs need to be low-powered to be fun to drive, and fast through corners, corner exit speed must be as high as possible to try to make up for the lack of power. Fast corner exit speed can be acheived by following tips 1 and 2.

Tip 4: Braking, Braking, and more Braking! Low powered cars and FFs ecspecially rely on there supurb braking abilities to gain time on there higher powered opponents. FFs are gifted with extraordinary braking power, because of their corner entry speed being less due to less power, and also the fact that the majority of the weight on FFs is over the front wheels giving the front tires excellent traction while braking. Late braking can cut tenths off your lap times. Also, trail braking, or braking while turning, can be amazing helpful as long as you still follow tip 1. When doing this not only will you be able to brake later then any other drivetrain in GT4, but it will aslo help the rear-end of the FF rotate minimizing or even eliminating any understeer at all. Tuning can actually introduce a common oversteer to FF cars.

Tip 5: Be patient with the car, and adapting to driving differently. Like every drivetrain in GT4 the driver must adapt to different behaviors and characteristics, and FF is the most difficult to adapt to.

Tip 6: The sweet spot! Over-driving or under-drivng FFs is very easy to do and is the most common reason people dislike FFs. When under-driving FFs your laptimes are slow. When over-driving FFs,the car handles and behaves horribly and your laptimes are slow. You must find the delicate line between driving too slow and too hard. The easiest way to do so is spend a little time with your ghost and just run some laps. I once was able to pick off 3 seconds on tight little Citti di' Aria in a Civic just by making changes to how I drove resulting in a laptime change from 1:41.3xx to a 1:38.4xx in a 200hp civic on R3 racing tires!

FF tuning and modification is just as important as how you drive the car itself!

Tuning & Modding

Tip 1: Never over power the car! Obviously, the more power you have the lower your laptimes will go on most tracks. However, FFs handle worse and worse with more power. You have to find an amount of power that can be put down to the ground easily with minimal wheelspin. That will not only improve initial acceleration, but also do wonders for the cornering performance of the car. I normally normally do all the power mods, but only do a NA tune-up stage 1 or turbo-kit stage 1, and that generally is a controllable power for the car to handle.

Tip 2: Let it loose! Rear-end rotation is vital for a FF! This not only reduces or eliminates understeer, but can also introduce oversteer. It also raises cornering speed and allows you to get in the throttle earlier.

Tip 3: Keep the suspension soft(springs/dampers). Doing this keeps the tires firmly planted on the ground and keeps the front tires from loosing traction over bumps and elevation changes. It also allows adaquate weight transition to provide better braking and cornering.

Tip 4: Keep the gearing track specific. Most FFs are, to handle well, are low powered. So in order to maximize all the power you have you should always spend some time getting to know your gear ratios and your powerband. For example, I use a combination of 3 different gearing options for slow, mid-speed, and high speed tracks instead of just using one for every track. This allows my car to have optimal acceleration in any track condition and cornering situation by always using the optimal range of my powerband for my specific engine.

Tip 5: Ballast is bad. Although adding rear ballast to the car will essentially even out the weight distribution or get it closer to 50/50 the added weight in the car will offset the aditional handling with slower acceleration times. Also, the car can be made to handle as if it had 50/50 weight distribution by adjusting the suspension.

Tip 6: Stay away from driving aids. Learn to use throttle control. Your lap times will improve. Also, if you use driving aids to control understeer...just stop! That ends up slowing the car down so much and induces akward and unnatuaral handling characteristics into the car.

NEW!!! Additional Tips and Member Tips NEW!!!​


.... Another thing to do is: keep the rear stiffer, and more damping, this puts MORE weight onto the front wheels... a little - toe on the front can help with turn in/acceleratiing at the same time If you can rotate quickly, just let go of the steering while exiting the corner, this gives a noticeable difference...

...I think the most important thing there is the idea of adapting to the car and not using driving aids. You just can't say enough about getting away from dirving aids in FF....

....That is a good peice of advice. 👍 I agree that in order to get tuning essentials down you should use street tires, but both tire choices can teach you something about tuning. A car tuned on street tires will not be using the full potential of race tires and vice-versa, and since GT4 has races that require you to use street tires and races that allow you to use race tires I think personally that it is important to know how to tune on both tire selections....


...Thank you very much! I do believe you are correct, although in terms or covering it up, or fixing it I think a little different. You have to set a car up around the tires you plan to use. If a certain FF on sports tires understeers, and on Race tires it oversteers, it doesn't mean it covered up the cars problems with understeer. It means to me that it covered up the sports tires problems with understeer. FFs and AWDs tend to just bring that problem out in those tires more often, because of weight layouts and the way they put power down to the ground. All cars with sports tires have significantly less grip then with race tires and understeer more at a certain limit. When adjusting the suspension though, one can fix the problem of oversteer and understeer in both cases. Also, FF cars tend to oversteer more on bumpy, banked, off-camber, and elevation changing roads due to agressive suspensions and a lack of weight over the rear of the car. Same case with oversteer when braking as well...


....For me, its all about throttle control with FF cars, I still find braking at the limit a bit tricky. IMO 250BHP is the max amount of power you want and NA is the best way to go. I also stick soft tyres on the rears to make the fronts and rears wear more evenly, Hasn't made a negative effect on the cars handling...

...I also find that a good limit and prefer the NA engine type. The turbos increase the torque too much and add wheelspin at low and mid-range rpms in turns. I also find that some of the heavier FF, such as the Alfas, can handle up to 300hp without any negative handling traits...


....Anyways....I've noticed, with alot of setups, that the limited-slip differentials play a huge role in the way the cars handle.
For example: The R-34 GT-R Skylines handle like absolute trash with a full-customize diff. But it handles like a dream with the stock one. (Not an FF, but a good ex.)
Another little hint: When tuning an FF's differential, use a low setting. IE: 5/7/6, instead of 10/40/20 <-- 40 being near a full-lock...making for hard turns in an FF....

.... The differential setup or selection does have alot to do with the handling of the car, however there is not just one proper differential setup for a FF or AWD. In my testing with FFs and AWD I found many different differential setups that gave the car different characteristics, but ended in nearly the same laptimes and performance. I am not saying there isn't a good and a bad, but there are many good and many bad setups...



List of my Favorite FFs to drive and Tune!

Honda Civic Sir-II (EG6) :bowdown:
Mitsubishi FTO GP Version-R
Honda Integra Type R (DC2 98')
Honda Integra Type R (DC5)
Honda Civic Type-R (EK9)
Honda Civic Type-R (EP)
Renault Clio Sport
Seat Ibiza


I hope this guide can be helpful, and I hope more people on GTP can come to accept FFs as at least a decent drive and realize that tuned properly and driven properly can also be fast and a lot of fune to drive! :cheers: :)

Here is a link to an example set-up I use:

Touge Civic Sir-II

(P.S. Tire stagger on that setup isn't really necessary.)




NEW!!! FF Brake Tuning Guide!!! NEW!!!


NEW!!! LINK TO: TuneRVisioN's GT4 Tips and info!!!NEW!!!NEW!!! 👍 :)

Thanks for all the support TuneRVisioN!!!


Peace,
eg6_dude
 
great! I really enjoyed that car, but since i was rating, i had to give it the bads too,
Another thing to do is: keep the rear stiffer, and more damping, this puts MORE weight onto the front wheels...
a little - toe on the front can help with turn in/acceleratiing at the same time
If you can rotate quickly, just let go of the steering while exiting the corner, this gives a noticeable difference..
+rep 👍
My fave FF cars:
any Civic EK9
any Civic EG6
Any Integra excluding RSX type
Peugot 206rc
Still need to drive:
motul and gathers civics... XD
 
+rep. "Good Advice"

I think the most important thing there is the idea of adapting to the car and not using driving aids. You just can't say enough about getting away from dirving aids in FF.

That said, some of my favorite FFs...
Honda Accord Euro R '02
TRD Celica
Civic Type R (EP) & (EG)
Prelude SiR S Spec
Alfa Romeo GT 3.2 V6 24V
VW Golf GTI V
Seat Ibiza Cupra
Nissan Micra
Vitz RS Turbo
Spoon Fit Race Car
Xsara Rally Car

That's about it. :cheers:
 
Nice topic . . . Although if I could make one suggestion . . . Please change the font color. Cyan on white is a bit hard on the eyes.

I've actually been working with my FF cars lately. I had avoided them for most of my game because of their temperamental driving nature nature and fickle tuning nature.

For the most part, I have been driving most of the cars stock, but recently have been venturing into tuning them again.

Some of my current top 10 FF cars are: (in no particular order)

Mitsubishi FTO GP Version-R '99
Alfa Romeo GTV 3.0 V6 24V '01
VW Golf GTI V '05
VW Golf GTI IV '01
Suzuki CONCEPT-S2 '03
Peugeot 206 S16 '99
Mini Cooper-S '02
Mazda Mazdaspeed 6 '05
Honda CIVIC TYPE R (EP) '01
Dodge SRT4 '03

I haven't done search on this yet . . . But has anyone done any endurance races in a FF??

Off to do a search in the mean time.
 




List of my Favorite FFs to drive and Tune!

Honda Civic Sir-II (EG6) :bowdown:
Mitsubishi FTO GP Version-R
Honda Integra Type R (DC2 98')
Honda Integra Type R (DC5)
Honda Civic Type-R (EK9)
Honda Civic Type-R (EP)
Renault Clio Sport
Seat Leon



You mean the Seat Ibiza, there's no Leon in the game :)

@Paragon GT

The Mazdaspeed 6 is 4WD ;)
 
Some nice advice there! I got a '99 Civic TypeR and did everything to it before i read this post but mine still handles really well. The only fine tunng i did was the suspension which is quite low and fairly hard. Although I've done everything to the car I don't get any wheelspin which I was really surprised at.
 
I agree with Paragon...that cyan color makes it hard to read and now my eyeballs hurt :ill: But good advice for newbs & intermediates, I agree with most of it.

One thing I like to do (not mentioned) is play with the suspension a bit more. I like having the front softer than the rear...in a FF in GT4 I'll often have the rear dampers set really hard (like from 7 to 9) and the ride height lowered in front about 10 mm. This of course keep traction where it's needed the most--towards the front. 💡 Front dampers I'll typically keep from 3 to 5. In such a low-powered car, I'm often using a sports or semi-racing suspension...in many B & A license races, you simply don't need full-customizing....

If I'm using the brake-controller, I'll also have to rear brakes set higher than the front in an effort to get the car to oversteer a tad, but in GT4 this is not as effective like it was in GT2 and 3. I also use the L2 button as a handbrake, which can conveniently pivot a front-drive car for a tighter line out of corners if necessary. But I don't rely on the handbrake all the time....only occasionally. I think if you're constantly e-braking all the time something is wrong.
 
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I have found the Daihatsu Copen very good to drive - it's not that fast but it makes up for it in the corners, being very smooth and light. It is actually one of the cars you do not have to brake so much with - let off the gas once in a while and you're good.
I have a Honda CRX SI-R, it's turbo'd so I do struggle in some corners. However, just the tought of over 230 bhp on tap combined with a stage three suspension makes me drool.
The Dodge SRT-4 is also good fun, although not that revy, it's peppy and has a lot of grunt, while the handling is quite nice. Any Honda apart from the CRX is good fun, I've had some laughs in everything from the 83 Civic to the DC5. The Accords are surprisingly good for being sedans/saloons.
If you really want a nice, cheap car, buy the Fiat Panda. I am not kidding here, it's fun around those corners, lacking power. And when you're really getting some speed, struggle for keeping it up - bonus!


Eirik
 
OK , i thought id submit some of my own tips :

Tip 1 : Sell the FF

Tip 2 : Buy something else


Fastest way to a fun/fast ride with an FF
 
great! I really enjoyed that car, but since i was rating, i had to give it the bads too,
Another thing to do is: keep the rear stiffer, and more damping, this puts MORE weight onto the front wheels...
a little - toe on the front can help with turn in/acceleratiing at the same time
If you can rotate quickly, just let go of the steering while exiting the corner, this gives a noticeable difference..
+rep 👍

I have done numerous amounts of testing on FFs and come to the conclusion that the GT4 physics is different from real life. GT4 physics would prefer that you set the rear softer to gain rotation and oversteer. The reason the dampening is so low is because this car was meant for the Touge. I needed it soft to absorb the bumps on Citti di' Aria. I'll have to try some toe adjustments, but I remember not noticing much of a difference in handling last time I did. Good advice about steering while exiting a corner! Also, thanks for the rep!👍 :)

Nice topic . . . Although if I could make one suggestion . . . Please change the font color. Cyan on white is a bit hard on the eyes.

Changed the color to navy...hopes its easier on the eyes. :nervous: Not a big fan of black...it bores me.

Thanks everbody for the rep and the added advice! :) Your input means alot to me and keep the comments coming!


BTW: Martal39, if you don't like FFs, don't post here.


Interest check: would anybody be interested in an advanced FF setup guide??
💡
 
Very interesting stuff. 👍

A commonly-held belief is that front-wheel drive cars are easier to handle, which to a certain extent, isn't exactly wrong. They're certainly easier to handle for the housewaife driving to the supermarket, and for the beginner, a slightly understeery car is a lot easier to deal with than a twitchy Mazda RX-7 or a Honda NSX trying to spin out of control on every corner.

However, for the more experienced GT player, or indeed driver, the rear-drive car is a doddle to drive, having some idea as to how to deal with their tail-happy behaviour, and appreciating their easier corner entry, whereas a front-drive car can seem clumsy in comparison.

Of course, as you point out, it's about adjusting technique to find the hidden depths in these cars, and using all that weight under the front bonnet to your advantage.

Some of my favourite FWD cars?
Honda Civic Type R '01
Honda CRX VTEC (EF8)
Ford Ka (Don't laugh!)
Toyota Yaris/Vitz RS 1.5
Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
Ford Focus RS
Nissan Primera 2.0 Te '90
 
I hadn't played GT4 for over a year and just came back this past weekend. After racing in my R89 and BMW M3 CSL and other assorted rides for a few hours, I got back into the driver's seat of my Honda Integra Type-R and proceeded to have a BLAST!

eg6_dude, I'd love some specific setups for this car :)
 
I can't tell you for sure because my game is at my house and I'm stuck at University taking finals :( I know it isn't the Spoon, fairly sure it's the DC2 or DC5. I only did HP upgrades with a 2nd stage of the N/A tune because I'm pretty sure it doesn't take turbo...also did the stage 1 weight reduction! Also on R4 tires I think...those are the softs, right? :)
 
Thats cool! You can just get back to me whenever. You can PM as well if you want to. :)

I believe that the DC2s and DC5s all can accept turbos and, yes, R4 are the soft racing tires.

Good luck on your finals!👍


peace,
eg6_dude
 
May I add one thing? Get away from using racing tires. Stick to sports or Normals, you will learn alot more about the car. Thats a big one for me.

Some of my favs..

Seat Ibiza, Honda Civic and the Integras, Toyota Vitz Turbo, Pugeot 206, along with others I forget at the moment.
 
+Rep eg6_dude! This is a little better than my thread I have to admit. (-_-)

My FF's are:
Nissan MM-R Cup Car - Light Weight.
All Honda Civics and Integras - No need to explain...
Renault Megane 2.0 IDE Coupe - Strongish engine.
Opel Tigra - Strongish engine.
Renault AVANTIME - Tought my mom how to drive in GT4! I don't know how...
Renault Clio - Enjoyable sporty FF.
All Peugeot 206s - Nice looks.
Peugeot 106 S16 - Feels faster than it appears.
Nissan EXA - Oversteers every now and then.
Toyota Celica - Can oversteer and get Supercharged. 👍
Mini Cooper - Has a cool british look.
Dodge SRT-4 - Speed.
Hyundai Tiburon - Nice little bugger.
 
May I add one thing? Get away from using racing tires. Stick to sports or Normals, you will learn alot more about the car. Thats a big one for me.

That is a good peice of advice. 👍 I agree that in order to get tuning essentials down you should use street tires, but both tire choices can teach you something about tuning. A car tuned on street tires will not be using the full potential of race tires and vice-versa, and since GT4 has races that require you to use street tires and races that allow you to use race tires I think personally that it is important to know how to tune on both tire selections. IMO at least. :cheers:

Thanks for the rep TuneRVisioN!:)
 
Great post, although with racing tires, no FF will understeer. In fact, the Integra type r has extreme oversteer under braking with racing tires. They cover up the understeer instead of actually fixing it IMO.
 
why no-one has love for VW Lupo GTi? it can put up a hard fight when stock, running effectively against Civic VTi's and Alfa V6's.. with huge power disadvantage. also, Focus ST170 is being neglected. I'll put my setup for that one up spoon at tuner garage.
 
I love the Lupo line up in GT4, it's just that I don't drive it all the time for some reason. It's one of those cars that stays there for 99% of the time when I'm playing GT4, and that 1% is when I'm racing it or testing settings for FF cars.
 
Cool thread eg6, I haven't been around GTP for a while and it's good to see some love for the FF's - I enjoy them a lot :)

You might be interested in this thread I started quite a while back, it's about building cars to British Touring Car spec, and as most of the cars in that championship are FF there are a fair number of FF setups in there.

There's an Integra setup in there as well, for the person who mentioned those cars (lovely machine, even if I do say so myself :P). All the setups of mine run racing tyres, as they are designed to be race machines, however the setups seem to transfer reasonably well to sports tyres.
 
No problem, you deserved it. I put a link on my GT4 Tips thread to your thread. If that's ok. :)

I am honored. Thank you TuneRVisioN!
( I shall extend the same treatment to you, check first post :cheers: )


Great post, although with racing tires, no FF will understeer. In fact, the Integra type r has extreme oversteer under braking with racing tires. They cover up the understeer instead of actually fixing it IMO.

Thank you very much! I do believe you are correct, although in terms or covering it up, or fixing it I think a little different. You have to set a car up around the tires you plan to use. If a certain FF on sports tires understeers, and on Race tires it oversteers, it doesn't mean it covered up the cars problems with understeer. It means to me that it covered up the sports tires problems with understeer. FFs and AWDs tend to just bring that problem out in those tires more often, because of weight layouts and the way they put power down to the ground. All cars with sports tires have significantly less grip then with race tires and understeer more at a certain limit. When adjusting the suspension though, one can fix the problem of oversteer and understeer in both cases. Also, FF cars tend to oversteer more on bumpy, banked, off-camber, and elevation changing roads due to agressive suspensions and a lack of weight over the rear of the car. Same case with oversteer when braking as well. Thats all IMO BTW. :) 👍

why no-one has love for VW Lupo GTi? it can put up a hard fight when stock, running effectively against Civic VTi's and Alfa V6's.. with huge power disadvantage. also, Focus ST170 is being neglected. I'll put my setup for that one up spoon at tuner garage.

I personally love thrashing on that little Lupo GTi! Its a hoot to drive! I can't wait to see that Focus setup Leo. 👍

Cool thread eg6, I haven't been around GTP for a while and it's good to see some love for the FF's - I enjoy them a lot :)

You might be interested in this thread I started quite a while back, it's about building cars to British Touring Car spec, and as most of the cars in that championship are FF there are a fair number of FF setups in there.

There's an Integra setup in there as well, for the person who mentioned those cars (lovely machine, even if I do say so myself :P). All the setups of mine run racing tyres, as they are designed to be race machines, however the setups seem to transfer reasonably well to sports tyres.

Thanks for the info, I am going to check that out right now.... :)

Keep the comments and additional advice coming guys! Thanks for all the input!:sly:

Peace,
eg6_dude




EDIT: NEW!! HUGE FF TUNING GUIDE UPDATE ON THE WAY!!!!..... NEW!! :sly: :)
 
Cool! I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :indiff: JK

I will add some things in a few to your FF tips, since I'm currenty testing out FF cars and setups... Thanks for linking me though. :)
 
Here's a drift setup for FF cars...

Spring rate 5.5-7.5 front and back.
5-15 clicks above lowest value front and back.
Bound 3 Front 3 Rear.
Rebound 8 Front 8 Rear.
Camber 0.0 Front 10.0 Rear.
Toe -4 Front 4 Rear.
Stabilizers 4-5 Front and Rear.
No LSD or Weight Ballast yet, as it is not tested yet.
Tranny trick applied to keep the car in full power during drifting.
No downforce added.
No driving aids applied.
NOS will only add understeer, but adds speed on the straights if you can keep the power on the ground, so it is optional.
Tires RM Front and RH rear. Well any tires would work, as long as there are more slippery tires at the rear, even same compound tires can oversteer with this setup.
 
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