The Keys to a fast/fun FF! **Huge Update Posts #45 & #48**

[Slick Rick]

Great write up man, I love FF's too
For me, its all about throttle control with FF cars, I still find braking at the limit a bit tricky. IMO 250BHP is the max amount of power you want and NA is the best way to go. I also stick soft tyres on the rears to make the fronts and rears wear more evenly, Hasn't made a negative effect on the cars handling.

 

[eg6_dude]

Thanks for the setup TuneRVisioN! I am very curious about how this setup will work? Not much of a drifter myself I cant provide any credit towards how good at drifting it is, but I like the idea and if a residient GTP drifter wanted to have a go that would be cool.

Great write up man, I love FF's too
For me, its all about throttle control with FF cars, I still find braking at the limit a bit tricky. IMO 250BHP is the max amount of power you want and NA is the best way to go. I also stick soft tyres on the rears to make the fronts and rears wear more evenly, Hasn't made a negative effect on the cars handling.

I also find that a good limit and prefer the NA engine type. The turbos increase the torque too much and add wheelspin at low and mid-range rpms in turns. I also find that some of the heavier FF, such as the Alfas, can handle up to 300hp without any negative handling traits. Good advice and thank you!

****UPDATE ON THE WAY******


peace,
eg6_dude

 

[Corsaphobic]

why no-one has love for VW Lupo GTi? it can put up a hard fight when stock, running effectively against Civic VTi's and Alfa V6's.. with huge power disadvantage. also, Focus ST170 is being neglected. I'll put my setup for that one up spoon at tuner garage.

The Lupo GTI never corssed my mind, and as stock, it's not a bad car I suppose. Nothing special, but it does everything reasonably well.

The Focus ST170, though, is alright in the corners, but it's overshadowed by the RS, asn the engine's not particularly gutsy to be frank.

Mind you, if engine's such an issue, why did I put down the Ford Ka as one of my top FFs? It has to be said, this frog-a-like tiddler does corner exceptionally, with barely any understeer.

And it's engines that seem to let the Mini down in GT4, as they aparently do in the real world. Even the Cooper S doesn't feel particularly eager.

 

[Leonidae]

The Lupo GTI never corssed my mind, and as stock, it's not a bad car I suppose. Nothing special, but it does everything reasonably well.

The Focus ST170, though, is alright in the corners, but it's overshadowed by the RS, asn the engine's not particularly gutsy to be frank.

it's not a bad car? well just pray for mercy if you run against it when it's "the rabbit to chase around the track" in the beginner hall with stock Civic VTi'93/'95. if you're a good driver you have a chance to pass it on the last lap. more powerful and heavier cars give tons of less trouble.

And Focus ST doesn't share RS's lack of tracion when gunning out of corner. it's more neutral to drive. and I really doubt that RS is that light in real life.

 

[crimson_menace]

Hello. I've been doing some experementation with a few setups with FF's. My fave FF btw, is the Alfa Romeo GT. It's a blast....

Anyways....I've noticed, with alot of setups, that the limited-slip differentials play a huge role in the way the cars handle.
For example: The R-34 GT-R Skylines handle like absolute trash with a full-customize diff. But it handles like a dream with the stock one. (Not an FF, but a good ex.)

Another little hint: When tuning an FF's differential, use a low setting. IE: 5/7/6, instead of 10/40/20 <-- 40 being near a full-lock...making for hard turns in an FF.

Hope I helped some. And props for an insightful thread.👍

 

[Vince247]

Nice thread eg6_dude, it learnt me alot about FF.

 

[Leonidae]

I've added my MFT Focus ST-R/T setup to the tuner garage. feel free to try it out and review it. later today i'll add Alpine 1600S. That beast runs neck to neck with RUF's finest!

 

[eg6_dude]

Hello. I've been doing some experementation with a few setups with FF's. My fave FF btw, is the Alfa Romeo GT. It's a blast....

Anyways....I've noticed, with alot of setups, that the limited-slip differentials play a huge role in the way the cars handle.
For example: The R-34 GT-R Skylines handle like absolute trash with a full-customize diff. But it handles like a dream with the stock one. (Not an FF, but a good ex.)

Another little hint: When tuning an FF's differential, use a low setting. IE: 5/7/6, instead of 10/40/20 <-- 40 being near a full-lock...making for hard turns in an FF.

Hope I helped some. And props for an insightful thread.👍

Good advice! The differential setup or selection does have alot to do with the handling of the car, however there is not just one proper differential setup for a FF or AWD. In my testing with FFs and AWD I found many different differential setups that gave the car different characteristics, but ended in nearly the same laptimes and performance. I am not saying there isn't a good and a bad, but there are many good and many bad setups. Thank you for contributing! I will try your differential setup and get back to you on what I think. 👍

Nice thread eg6_dude, it learnt me alot about FF.

Thank you! There is much more information on the way.....

 

[mafia_boy]

Love the Lupo GTi myself. Only 243hp but got it to 200mph and do 12s on the 1/4 very easily.

My Top 10 handling cars would be:
147GTA (great handler)
DC5 Integra Type-R
EP3 Civic Type-R
EG Civic Si
Honda City Turbo II
Renault Clio
Honda Accord V6
Seat Ibiza Cupra R
EP82 Toyota Starlet
Toyota Celica SS-II ST202

Mafs!!

 

[TuneRVisioN]

My Top 10 handling cars would be:
EG Civic Si

I expect eg6_dude to come out of nowhere and correct that cars name.

 

[Vince247]

that is a fact tunervision.

I am seeing forward to your information, Eg6_dude

 

[eg6_dude]

I expect eg6_dude to come out of nowhere and correct that cars name.

I couldn't help myself!!! It was too tempting!

EG6 Civic Sir-II

 

[TuneRVisioN]

There, atleast you never slack...

 

[Vince247]

ghehe

I think you guys should see this post too.

 

[eg6_dude]

Here it is guys! My all new GT4 tuning guide just for cars with a FF drivetrain! This guide will be simiar to Scaff's own tuning guide, but will put the explanations into example set-ups and directly apply to how these tuning tips can help your FF be a real performer! In this guide I will talk about Suspension, Drivetrain, Brakes, Tires, Downforce, Ballast, and Differential setup and how different setups will apply to your FF! I have put countless hours into testing since the debut of GT4 and along the way have found some startling info that will translate in better setups and ideals of how GT4 works! 👍

GT4 FF Specialty Tuning Guide​

Suspension Guide-

Suspension Tuning on a FF is by far the easiest way to lower your lap times. There are many different setups that one can use, from radical to elementary, I will explain and list the different posibilities here.

-The spring rates in GT4 do not follow suite to real life. They are in fact backwards as well as the damper setings. Where in real life you would want stiffer rear springs/dampers and softer front springs/dampers in GT4 you want the exact opposite settings. You want stiffer in the front and softer in the back. I tested this exact theory dozens of times in dozens of cars and each time swapping from what should be to my new theory the car rotated much better. Also you want to keep the springs as soft as possible while still acheiving the handling you need. Most of the Full Race suspensions are suitable to a cars handling, but the spring rates/dampers need to be softened up a great deal. The majority of the time downgrading to the Semi-Race suspension is not needed. Many different spring rates can be run and have the car can still have similar handling characteristics. For example, you can run a 14 FR and 10 RR spring rate set-up, and the car will handle basically the same as a 8 FR and 4 RR spring rate set-up except for the lack of weight transfer and the decreased handling on bumpy surfaces. In essence the harder the front spring the more rotation you get, and the softer the rear spring the more rotation you get. However, the front can always be oversprung and the rear can always be undersprung, but it is very uncommon for the rear to be undersprung with a Full-Race suspension. I personally recomend between a 6.5 and 8.5 for cars weighing between 750kg and 1000kg, and a 8.5 to 10.5 for cars over 1000kg for the front spring rates. In the rear I would recomend between a 3 and 5.5 for cars weighing between 750kg and 1000kg, and 5.5 to 7.5 for cars over 1000kg. That is of course only a rough guideline as the suspension will need to be fine tuned to meet the drivers needs and skill levels. So a 7.5 FR and 7.5 RR setup will be a neutral set-up, a 7.5 FR and 3.5 RR would be an agressive rotation set-up, and a 7.5 FR and 10.5 RR would be a more understeer orientated set-up despite what should be true.

-Moving on from spring rates to dampers now. The damper set-up in GT4 are also backward from a real life set-up. The fronts need to be stiffer and the rears need to be softer. In GT4 the car reacts better with softer dampers with a low bound value and a higher rebound value. Lap times prove this in testing showing a on average 2 tenth improvemnt over default damper settings. Stiffer damper settings proved to be consistently no better then the default. The damper settings, I have found, are not as crucial lap time wise as the springs, but still play a big part in car feel ecspecially on bumpier surfaces such as the Ring or Citti di' Aria. FF cars, as well as the rest of the drivetrains appear to like to sync with the spring rates. So I use a similar ratio with my springs and dampers while staying relatively soft on both. An example of this is when I have a 7.5 FR spring rate and 3.5 RR I would then use a 3 bound/7 rebound FR damper value and a 2 bound/5 rebound damper value in the RR. Just like springs I use the weight of the car to determine a rough guidline for setting the dampers. If the cars weight is increased then I usually only increase the value by one each. Using a low bound value and a high rebound value allows for better weight transfer and absorbtion of bumps, and you still maintain that crisp feel.

-Camber is the next thing to be talked about. Camber in GT4 is similar to real life in the way it is used, but it doesn't have as big of an impact. Obviously to much camber, and too little camber can be a very bad thing. I find that staying in the range of -1 and -4 degrees is ideal to maintaing normal handling characteristics. Camber is very important on a FF ecspecially! You can use the FR and RR camber to dictate traction at all four tires very easily and it tends to have more of an impact on FFs then any other drivetrain layout in GT4. For example, more camber in the rear will cause less rotation, but less camber in the rear will cause more rotation. The oppisite applies for the front of the car. More camber in front will increase front grip giving more rotation and better cornering speeds while less camber in the front will give less rotation and slower cornering speeds. The reason you should never exceed -4 degrees camber is that braking lengths will be longer and the transition speeds and corner entry responsivness will suffer significantly. The reason you should never use less then -1 degree camber is because, its simply to little on the majority of applications on the front or the rear of the car. So for example, a -4 FR and -1 RR is an agressive rotation set-up, a -2 FR and -2 RR set-up is neutral, and finally a -2 FR and -4 RR is an understeer orientated set-up. My average set-up personally is a -4 FR and -1.5 to 2 RR for FF Cars.

-Toe is an adjustment that is often only needed to be used on the rear of any given car, but more so for a FF. Toe in the rear of the car is used for two things. Toe-out is used for rotation and less stability, while toe-in is used for less rotation and more stability. Never use toe-in on the rear of a FF!! It is definitly not needed....ever! However, a little bit of toe-out can do wanders for a FF car. Helping it rotate better without sacrficing braking or any other dimension of the cars performance. The reason I say that toe isn't a big deal in the front of the car is simply, because it isn't. Using to in the front means either you sacrifice cornering speed for better steering response with toe-in, or you sacrifice steering response for cornering speed with toe-out and either way you lose. The improvments of toe adjustments on the front of the car don't even justify wasting the time to do it. The vast moajority of the time 0 is the best number for front toe.

-Ride height is next! The ride height adjustment is crucial to the cars performance. If the car is too low then you will bottom out on everything or have not enough stroke room, and if the car is too high your transitioning speed and stability will be majorly sacrificed. So the idea is too make the car as low as possible while still maintaining proper ground clearance and stroke. There is no rough guidline I can give you to help besides starting at around 10mm up from the lowest in the front and back, and trying it out. What I normally do is run a couple of insane, but fast laps, running over curbs and braking and accelerating hard. Also, take the car to tracks you know are bumpy like the Ring and Citti di' Aria. Then watch the laps carefully on the reply to analyze any bottoming out issues. The stroke room however, can not visually be seen in GT4. You have to kinda "feel" the car out. The easiest way to do it is drive the car with the stock suspension ride height(plenty high defaulted) and then drive the car with your new ride height that doesn't bottom out. If your new ride height seems to be lacking something the old one has it is most likely that it is still too low and there is not sufficient stroke room and you have to raise the car a bit more. Ride height can also be use as a weight transfer method. The only method that should ever be used on a FF car is where the rear ride height is higher then the front. I use this method in moderation as it allows for more rotation, because it transfers weight off the rear of the car and on to the front. In general I have the rear of my FFs between 5-10mm higher then the front.

-Last but not least is the Stabilizers/Sway Bars/Anti-Roll Bars! This adjustment allows you to make quick and easy adjustments to the cars tendencies. The stock default setting of 4 FR and 4 RR is a good neutral set-up. However, raising the rear stabilizer will give you better conering speeds and better rear end rotation. I used to think that to get the best rotation in a FF in GT4 that the front had to be at 1, but I found that the game actually prefers 4 or 5. So a low stabilizer set-up like 2 FR and 2 RR can be used for a understeer oreintated set-up, default is good for a neutral set-up, and 5 FR 7RR can be used for an agressive set-up. Once again these are just guidlines and the set-up wil have to be fine tuned for each driver to suit there needs.


****This guide is made up of many testing and set-up hours on GT4! This guide does not apply to real life or what the car should do according to what real life says. If there are any comments or concerns I only ask that you do some testing of your own with what I have said and then voice your opinion*****


Hope you guys like,
eg6_dude



The Next Installment will consist of Drivetrain and Brakes!!! Look for it in a couple of days....

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Cool! You beat me to the suspension setups... You should add that big update for the first post. +Rep. After I spread it first.

 

[eg6_dude]

Thanks for the rep!

I decided just to put a link to it instead. I am saving the first post for the update of the general FF tips. After all, this isn't just a tuning guide. 👍

peace,
eg6_dude

 

[eg6_dude]

Heres the next installment guys! 👍

Brake Guide

In GT4 the amount of specific brake modifications is limited, but the bias adjustment is made avalible by buying the controller. Which allows you to adjust the front and the rear brake bias accordingly.

In a FF aplication brake bias should be set to a heavy rear brake bias. Meaning the rear brakes will get more braking force then the front brakes and cause the car to be unsettled while braking. Why would you want his you may say? That is a very good question indeed. The reason you want a lot of rear brake is to help the car rotate upon corner entry reducing the amount of steering angle the car needs to turn the corner correctly. Thus, giving you more conering speed and less front tire wear while allowing you to brake later as well. (This method can actually be used on all drivetrains) Well this is good for producing fast lap times and quick corner this setup may not be so ideal for long races, excessively bumpy tracks, or the novice driver. If you use this set-up you can cancel the rotation affect, if needed, by simply braking in a straight line.

The second issue with FFs and brakes is lock-up from the front tires under braking. Lock up of the front (never seen rear) can simply be cured by reducing the front bias or increasing the rear. Lock-up can be heard while playing and can result in longer stopping distances.

****This guide is made up of many testing and set-up hours on GT4! This guide does not apply to real life or what the car should do according to what real life says. If there are any comments or concerns I only ask that you do some testing of your own with what I have said and then voice your opinion*****


Thanks again for any response in advance and im sorry this was such a small update, but I've been busy lately.... the drivetrain guide should be up in a few days!

(working on updating main page with more tips and FF advice!! )


peace,
eg6_dude

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Cool tips eg6_dude! Making a mockery of my thread...

If you miss out what I think you are going to miss out on drivetrains, I'll be glad to add it.

 

[eg6_dude]

Main page has been updated with additional tips and tips by you guys that have been posted as we have been going along here!

P.S. Sorry TuneRVisioN, but I already started working on the drivetrain update, but mine is going to be how to adjust the drivetrain for a FF application and you could always do a more general one on drag racing, 300 mph, rally, highpowered car, and general tips! Thanks for the offer though!

Keep on posting folk! 👍


peace,
eg6_dude

 

[TuneRVisioN]

b

Looks like someone forgot the rest of the alphabet again... JK.

 

[eg6_dude]

I got the boot all of a sudden and that happened! I got it fixed though!

 

[Appie]

I learned a lot about this thread Thnx eg6

+rep:tup:

 

[Vince247]

nice thread, I am trying to tune my '91 Civic SiR (EG) to beat my Rx-7 (FD)
I'm still 3 seconds behind...
well your tips could help me a lot!
I will post more info soon, but it will be in the tuner garages thread.

Thanks dude!

 

[Leonidae]

for a FF application and you could always do a more general one on drag racing, 300 mph, rally, highpowered car, and general tips!

peace,
eg6_dude

300mph FF? I've seen 270mph SRT-4, and that's about it.. but, if you really can get to 300mph in an FF, I want a proof.. especially if it's a Honda.

 

[Vince247]

oh and also a good tip:

When checking out the ride height of your car, you could best do a bumpy track and do it with photomode. this way you have 64 angles to check if your car isn't bottoming out.

 

[rapapampam]

Good info eg6-dude.

I was wondering if you had any info. wheeelspin and which clutch and flywheel's to use as I have found using the standard flywheel helped reduce wheelspin.
Also any info on gear settings for FF's as I also found that spreading gears 1, 2 and 3 will also help in the reduction of wheelspin.

as the norm on gtplanet

Regards

 

[TuneRVisioN]

The Flywheel makes you accelerate faster, and decelerate faster, and also makes you shift much faster. I think it increases engine response too. Same goes for the clutches.

 

[eg6_dude]

300mph FF? I've seen 270mph SRT-4, and that's about it.. but, if you really can get to 300mph in an FF, I want a proof.. especially if it's a Honda.

My guide will be strictly FFs. I meant that he could do a all drivtrain tranny guide segment not another FF segment! 👍 ......And, I honestly can say that I don't believe any honda FF can go 300.... although maybe i'll give it a try! *joking*

peace,
eg6_dude

 

[Kent]

Sorry, accidental post.

On a side note:
Tuning is something I suggest everyone tests on their own.
Not all members of the GTP's tuning community agree entirely with some of the philosophies laid out in post #45.
With that said, I appreciate the efforts made in this thread and positive reputation has been given (even though I do not agree with some of the information published in the interest of guiding less experienced members).