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[OwensRacing]

I think one thing we could do to improve things is if you get a penalty instead of just "you've got a Level 2 5 point penalty", have a PM sent to the offending party saying you got this penalty because you were to far behind at turn in to have position which was decided to be the cause of the contact. In the future you should either establish better position before turn in or back out of a similar pass attempt. Any questions you have on this can be sent to your steward who'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

This would help handle the education part of it in a simple way that would also give the offending driver some options on what to do next time so the mistake isn't made. I think the point that most drivers don't intend to crash others out is valid. I think this can help with those that intend to race well but don't have the knowledge yet.

Yes. Personalize and explain penalties. Have said persons being penalize reply back. Communication is key!

 

[zer05ive]

I think one thing we could do to improve things is if you get a penalty instead of just "you've got a Level 2 5 point penalty", have a PM sent to the offending party saying you got this penalty because you were to far behind at turn in to have position which was decided to be the cause of the contact. In the future you should either establish better position before turn in or back out of a similar pass attempt. Any questions you have on this can be sent to your steward who'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

This would help handle the education part of it in a simple way that would also give the offending driver some options on what to do next time so the mistake isn't made. I think the point that most drivers don't intend to crash others out is valid. I think this can help with those that intend to race well but don't have the knowledge yet.

Yes. Personalize and explain penalties. Have said persons being penalize reply back. Communication is key!

I can't speak for all of the division stewards, but I'm often copied on the PM's that are exchanged between them and penalized drivers. All I can say is that there are many time when the stewards go above and beyond the call of duty to discuss and communicate why the stewards came to their decision and what could have been done to avoid the penalty in the first place. Hats off to the stewards who are taking the time to do this. You know who you are!

 

[DrKronin]

I think one thing we could do to improve things is if you get a penalty instead of just "you've got a Level 2 5 point penalty", have a PM sent to the offending party saying you got this penalty because you were to far behind at turn in to have position which was decided to be the cause of the contact. In the future you should either establish better position before turn in or back out of a similar pass attempt. Any questions you have on this can be sent to your steward who'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

This would help handle the education part of it in a simple way that would also give the offending driver some options on what to do next time so the mistake isn't made. I think the point that most drivers don't intend to crash others out is valid. I think this can help with those that intend to race well but don't have the knowledge yet.

I like this for a couple of reasons. It gives the offender more feedback, and encourages a dialog with the stewards if there are any ambiguities. As it is now, if someone is the target of, say, 3 complaints, but only gets one penalty, they won't know which complaint of the 3 they were penalized for unless they ask their division steward.

Edit: Zer0, how often would you say that penalized drivers get an explanation? If it's already happening nearly all the time, no change necessary

 

[OwensRacing]

I can't speak for all of the division stewards, but I'm often copied on the PM's that are exchanged between them and penalized drivers. All I can say is that there are many time when the stewards go above and beyond the call of duty to discuss and communicate why the stewards came to their decision and what could have been done to avoid the penalty in the first place. Hats off to the stewards who are taking the time to do this. You know who you are!

Good to hear. I got a penalty and had to ask why. Never even knew it was coming. That shock factor of your name being posted with out any idea is not a good feeling.

 

[SoCalRacer310]

I think one thing we could do to improve things is if you get a penalty instead of just "you've got a Level 2 5 point penalty", have a PM sent to the offending party saying you got this penalty because you were to far behind at turn in to have position which was decided to be the cause of the contact. In the future you should either establish better position before turn in or back out of a similar pass attempt. Any questions you have on this can be sent to your steward who'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

This would help handle the education part of it in a simple way that would also give the offending driver some options on what to do next time so the mistake isn't made. I think the point that most drivers don't intend to crash others out is valid. I think this can help with those that intend to race well but don't have the knowledge yet.

👍 agreed


Heading to D1!

 

[zer05ive]

Edit: Zer0, how often would you say that penalized drivers get an explanation? If it's already happening nearly all the time, no change necessary

It happens more than anyone thinks, that's for sure. One of the requirements of the complaint process is that the the driver filing the complaint must include both their division steward and the driver they are complaining on the same message. Naturally, this often results in dialogue between those copied on the message. For example, one steward in just the past few days has typed messages containing almost 5,000 characters in length! (and that's only the messages that I was copied on). And if you think I'm exagerating, I actually used this character counter to count them . Like I said, hats off to the stewards who put in the time and effort to do what is often a thankless job. 👍

Good to hear. I got a penalty and had to ask why. Never even knew it was coming. That shock factor of your name being posted with out any idea is not a good feeling.

I think what happened to you (and many others in D1 that week) was that there was one particular corner of track that almost the entire division was cutting that week. That's the only type of penalty that the stewards don't require an official complaint to be filed for because the stewards take it upon themselves to police those types of incidents.

 

[Rallywagon]

Next weekend up here in the great snow state of Mi (7 1/2" just fell up north in less then a half hour, and they have a full weeks worth of snow still coming) Rally America will be running Americas only snow rally event, called Sno*Drift. An event that I will once again be attending. How lucky I am to have married a woman who's dad just happens to live in Atlanta, where the event takes place.
To pay homage to this awesome event, I will be throwing together my own rally event, SNAIL style. The races will be held at Chamonix. I Plan on running two classes, group b rally cars, and stock class. Of course tuning will be prohibited. Tonight I'll throwing together a post tonight for the event, which will take place Monday. There you can post your want to participate and I'll have a full set of rules, instructions and an overview of the concept.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Suggested criteria for driver ratings:

1) Driver is familiar with SNAIL OLR and The Good Racecraft Guide.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

2) Driver competes in a fair and honest manner.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

3) Driver shows respect and patience for the other drivers and their positions on track. Is not likely to attempt aggressive marginal-racecraft or create contact in the attempt to gain positions.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

 

[zer05ive]

Sound good, Rally! It's about time that we revived Monday nights! Along with OwenRacing's upcoming event, there's hope that Monday nights will be filled with mayhem like they used to be!

 

[zer05ive]

I like it. I would like to know how I stack up and if / where I need to improve. I would value my reputation and ranking and do my best to maintain a high average.

^This reply was the very first response to my proposal of a "racecraft rating system", but I think it also does the best job of explaining why such a system would be effective in lowering the number of marginal racecraft decisions on any given Sunday night.

As I discussed here, it's simply human nature to find fault in others before finding fault in yourself. However, as Oshawa-Joe's pointed out, another strong and overpowering basic instinct of human nature is to protect one's reputation.

With that in mind, I'm going to call this racecraft rating system the REP system, where "REP" stands for Racecraft Evaluation Points. If drivers make poor racecraft choices on the track, their Racecraft Evaluation Points will go down. If anyone drivers over-aggressively, their REP will take a hit. You get the idea..

At this point, I'd like to get as many ideas as possible on the best way to word and structure the REP system. Here are the suggestions that have been put on the table so far:

I'd consider - and I am not sure how to implement - something that could indicate what the area of concern is in - not respecting cornering rights, never gives positions back, divebombs, excessive contact, etc. Even if there were a 1-3 word text response in addition to a 5 point Likert scale, it could immeasurably help inform the survey reader.

Something like -
5 - Exemplifies SNAIL
4 - Very good, a couple of small lapses in race night
3 - Usually OK, but one element above needs some work, or has that one race every week or two that's... urg
2 - Rarely seems to follow director/rules, frequently abuses or seems not to know the OLR
1 - OLR? Wha? Lolz, Srry fr wipin u out gain, man

Suggested criteria for driver ratings:

1) Driver is familiar with SNAIL OLR and The Good Racecraft Guide.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

2) Driver competes in a fair and honest manner.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

3) Driver shows respect and patience for the other drivers and their positions on track. Is not likely to attempt aggressive marginal-racecraft or create contact in the attempt to gain positions.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

I like that both of these proposals are on a 1-5 scale as that's something that I think is key. However, the wording and the number of questions are still up for discussion. I like how Handlebar's proposal sums everything up in one question (easier and simpler to take an average of all the ratings), but I also see value in the detail in Oshawa-Joe's three-question proposal. Is there any way to combine the two ideas? Does anyone else have a suggestion they'd like to offer? Now's your chance to add your input before this thing gets off the ground.

 

[OwensRacing]

I got all my pics taken and uploaded last night. Looking for time to make thread today!

 

[Wolfsatz]

Is anyone using this headset?

I have the previous generation which sometimes give me problems with the game audio. Thinking of upgrading and staying with wireless setup.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Is anyone using this headset?

I have the previous generation which sometimes give me problems with the game audio. Thinking of upgrading and staying with wireless setup.

I upgraded this week. Check out YouTube reviews and it has some nice features. However, I wanted the ability to adjust the position of the mic. Picked up Turtle Beach Xray on sale for only $30 more.

 

[jobyone]

I had been thinking about what zer05ive is now calling REP and these are my thoughts:

More than anything we want you to have fun while racing in the club. To this end we value good race craft and work hard to reward it. We take time to rank our fellow drivers race craft on a regular basis. Each driver has a score between 1-5. Five is the goal we all strive for. We all start with a score of 3. This score represents a driver who races clean and shows good race craft. Mistakes may happen but they are the exception not the rule at this level. A score above that shows exceptional race craft and respect of fellow drivers. A score below that shows poor race craft and a driver who needs to improve and likely show more respect to their fellow drivers.

The league likes to reward fast clean drivers with rewards. One of the biggest is to be able to choose next weeks combos. In order to be eligible for a prize the driver must be in good standing in the club by having a REP of 2.75 or more. Below that and you will not be eligible to win the prizes.

The league also likes to discourage bad race craft. To this end if a drivers REP is 2.25 or less they will no longer be able to score points during the events. At this point the focus of a driver with a REP under 2.25 should be first and foremost improving their race craft. Wining races and scoring points must come second to improving race craft. If a drivers score drops below 1.75 they will no longer be able to race in the events. They will be able to attend the practice and any impromptu practice that happens. Their focus at this point must be to show there fellow drivers that they are in fact able and willing to race cleanly and regain the respect of there fellow drivers. Once their score improves they will be allowed to race again.

Anytime three or more members of the club are on track together they can submit a REP to the PTB. In order to submit a score you must be a club member in good standing. This means that your REP must be above 2.25.

As a guide to how to score your fellow drivers this is the guideline
5 - The driver showed exceptionally clean racing during multiple laps of close racing with you. Passes were clean and total trust could be placed in their actions
4 - The driver showed excellent race craft during some close give and take racing. You may only have been around them for a few sections of the lap but all their actions demonstrated good race craft.
3 - The driver exhibited good race craft while passing or being passed by you. You may not have had much time racing this driver but his driving and behavior illustrated good race craft.
2 - The driver showed lack of good race craft resulting in a collision that effected position on the track or perhaps multiple incidents that did not cause position changes but that could have been avoidable. If position were effected this should be accompanied by a formal complaint.
1 - The driver showed exceptional lack of good race craft resulting in collisions that caused significant loss of position or multiple smaller collisions that caused position changes. These events should be accompanied by a formal complaint.
0 - The driver has taken action that is totally inappropriate whether on track, over chat or in the forums (reporting at this level should include a complaint and evidence or witnesses to the incident)

As always just my $.02

edited to adjust the punishment levels as when I ran some scenarios it was way to hard to reach the initial levels.

 

[Rallywagon]

While i would love to hit another 100 point system. 20 questions with 5 points possible in each would be to much I'm thinking. Do think 5 basic questions will sum up everything though. How well does a racer pass, how well does a racer brake, how well does a racer corner, how good is a racers situational awareness, and how well does a racer follow the OLR. These things are all what make or break good racecraft.

 

[dabneyd]

I upgraded this week. Check out YouTube reviews and it has some nice features. However, I wanted the ability to adjust the position of the mic. Picked up Turtle Beach Xray on sale for only $30 more.

Speaking of headsets, I need a new one. I had a Gioteck EX-01, but it was remarkably cheaply built and fell apart. Any recommendations?

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Speaking of headsets, I need a new one. I had a Gioteck EX-01, but it was remarkably cheaply built and fell apart. Any recommendations?

Once I narrowed down my choices to 2 or 3, I compared them using youtube reviews done by gamers. They better understand what it is we are looking for in sound quality and features. Watch at least 2 or 3 for each set to get a good understanding of pros and cons. Don't go cheap. I did the first time and regretted it.

 

[hillracing]

Only thing about the rating system is as you said people tend to blame the other person first. So what's to prevent rage rating? What if the only rating you get is from people pissed off from a move gone bad verses all the great side by side racing you had?

I think a better solution to the problem is have random checks by stewards on one or two drivers a week in a random race to see their driving habits and send feedback as needed to them. Positive and negative feedback. This would take all of ten mins for a division plus the time to write a pm but would provide the correction needed.

 

[saxplayer1998]

I think this could be necessary. I will only be able to race on days where I do not have school on the in-suing Monday. Like this week. But this week, I am sick, so I may or may not be able to participate. You could put me down as "pending further notice" or this week and time-to-time in the long term

I don't think this was noted.

 

[zer05ive]

Only thing about the rating system is as you said people tend to blame the other person first. So what's to prevent rage rating? What if the only rating you get is from people pissed off from a move gone bad verses all the great side by side racing you had?

I think a better solution to the problem is have random checks by stewards on one or two drivers a week in a random race to see their driving habits and send feedback as needed to them. Positive and negative feedback. This would take all of ten mins for a division plus the time to write a pm but would provide the correction needed.

The point of REP is to, as the name implies, gauge one's reputation within the community. The definition of "reputation" is the estimation in which a person or thing is held, especially by the community or the public generally.

With that in mind, if someone is mad at you for a "move gone bad", your reputation (whether you think it's fair or not) has been damaged. Again, reputation by definition is what others thinks of you, not what you think of yourself. And because it's human nature to apply blame to others before yourself, often times people think their reputation is better than it actually is. The REP system just might serve as an eye-opening reality check that some drivers in this league need.

That being said, a "move gone bad" doesn't have to be a death sentence to your REP. How a driver reacts to a "move gone bad" is just as important to their reputation as the move itself. For example, I've seen many instances when a driver causes contact during a race, but doesn't even bother to lift off the throttle to acknowledge the mistake. Instead, the said driver(s) remain at 100% throttle and take advantage of the contact to complete the pass or simply ignore the ill-effects the contact caused as they leave the driver they contacted in their rear-view mirror.

I'm a firm believer that the little blue throttle gauge is a clear indication of a driver's intent. When I watch replays of an incident, the first thing I focus on is the blue throttle gauge. When someone causes contact, but their throttle gauge remains unchanged, it tells me that they don't care that they caused contact and, in my opinion, that's horrendous racecraft. 👎

I could go side-by-side with another driver for an entire lap and it would be clean and awesome racing! However, if at the end of that lap he causes contact with me and uses it to complete a pass, you better believe (after I confirm it by watching the replay) that my opinion of him will be lowered. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone in this league wants to drive clean. The difference is how some of us react to things when they "go bad". Some will react by lifting off the throttle and allowing the person they contacted to have the position on the track back, but some will instead ignore the Golden Rule of Motorsports and continue on at full throttle. This is one of the types of behaviors that the REP system will hopefully make less common. Random checks by stewards would be way to inconsistent and create a situation where racecraft is judged by chance, and not by one's piers.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

We could also drop the lowest and highest score, correct?

 

[dabneyd]

Random checks by stewards would be way to inconsistent and create a situation where racecraft is judged by chance, and not by one's piers.

I do not wish to be judged by piers. All they do is float on water.

Unless it's this Piers.

 

[kcheeb]

I don't think this was noted.

Noted 👍

 

[Apmaddock]

I do not wish to be judged by piers. All they do is float on water.

Unless it's this Piers.

Being judged by the second would be worse than the first, methinks.

 

[dabneyd]

Being judged by the second would be worst than the first, methinks.

Since the first has no capacity to judge, I'd have to agree.

 

[zer05ive]

We could also drop the lowest and highest score, correct?

Yes, that's correct (like in the Olympics). It one way to resolve the rage rating concern (or the concern about the Russian judge who's going to give you a bad score regardless of how well we perform.. U..S..A!! U..S..A!!.. U..S..A..!!).

I do not wish to be judged by piers. All they do is float on water.

Ah crap, did I really spell it that way??

 

[moutonguerrier]

That being said, a "move gone bad" doesn't have to be a death sentence to your REP. How a driver reacts to a "move gone bad" is just as important to their reputation as the move itself. For example, I've seen many instances when a driver causes contact during a race, but doesn't even bother to lift off the throttle to acknowledge the mistake. Instead, the said driver(s) remain at 100% throttle and take advantage of the contact to complete the pass or simply ignore the ill-effects the contact caused as they leave the driver they contacted in their rear-view mirror.

I'm a firm believer that the little blue throttle gauge is a clear indication of a driver's intent. When I watch replays of an incident, the first thing I focus on is the blue throttle gauge. When someone causes contact, but their throttle gauge remains unchanged, it tells me that they don't care that they caused contact and, in my opinion, that's horrendous racecraft. 👎

No
You justify a usually good driver's poor manoeuver by this. "But he aknowledged it afterwards by lifting the throttle".
While a driver who's had difficulties in the past will not be given the "benefit of doubt" even if he stops and/or release the throttle.

My 2 cents.

 

[hillracing]

The point of REP is to, as the name implies, gauge one's reputation within the community. The definition of "reputation" is the estimation in which a person or thing is held, especially by the community or the public generally.

With that in mind, if someone is mad at you for a "move gone bad", your reputation (whether you think it's fair or not) has been damaged. Again, reputation by definition is what others thinks of you, not what you think of yourself. And because it's human nature to apply blame to others before yourself, often times people think their reputation is better than it actually is. The REP system just might serve as an eye-opening reality check that some drivers in this league need.

That being said, a "move gone bad" doesn't have to be a death sentence to your REP. How a driver reacts to a "move gone bad" is just as important to their reputation as the move itself. For example, I've seen many instances when a driver causes contact during a race, but doesn't even bother to lift off the throttle to acknowledge the mistake. Instead, the said driver(s) remain at 100% throttle and take advantage of the contact to complete the pass or simply ignore the ill-effects the contact caused as they leave the driver they contacted in their rear-view mirror.

I'm a firm believer that the little blue throttle gauge is a clear indication of a driver's intent. When I watch replays of an incident, the first thing I focus on is the blue throttle gauge. When someone causes contact, but their throttle gauge remains unchanged, it tells me that they don't care that they caused contact and, in my opinion, that's horrendous racecraft. 👎

I could go side-by-side with another driver for an entire lap and it would be clean and awesome racing! However, if at the end of that lap he causes contact with me and uses it to complete a pass, you better believe (after I confirm it by watching the replay) that my opinion of him will be lowered. The point I'm trying to make is that everyone in this league wants to drive clean. The difference is how some of us react to things when they "go bad". Some will react by lifting off the throttle and allowing the person they contacted to have the position on the track back, but some will instead ignore the Golden Rule of Motorsports and continue on at full throttle. This is one of the types of behaviors that the REP system will hopefully make less common. Random checks by stewards would be way to inconsistent and create a situation where racecraft is judged by chance, and not by one's piers.

My point is that I've seen it happen where someone has contact through their own fault, blames the other person when they were the one that caused the situation. What if they now to retaliate use the REP system and give that person a 0? Is that person being judged fairly? How many people are going to go out of their way to judge their fellow racers for good reasons and how many are going to do so out of anger?

In my idea of having steward checks it would be one driver per weekend per division and if while doing your check you saw another driver driving poorly you could take action on what you saw. I guarantee you I could watch a single race in a division and see who the problem children are. The reason I like this idea is it puts the thought there that any of the races for the night could be watched by a steward with or without a protest. It also can be used to help drivers that need it.

Anyways I'm sure you're going to stick to your idea but I wanted to voice my thoughts on it.

 

[IceWarden]

Well if you drop the lowest and highest score then you should remove the Super-Friend and the Revenge ratings.

If you get a bunch of zero ratings then you might be the problem after all

 

[Wolfsatz]

Only thing about the rating system is as you said people tend to blame the other person first. So what's to prevent rage rating? What if the only rating you get is from people pissed off from a move gone bad verses all the great side by side racing you had?

I think a better solution to the problem is have random checks by stewards on one or two drivers a week in a random race to see their driving habits and send feedback as needed to them. Positive and negative feedback. This would take all of ten mins for a division plus the time to write a pm but would provide the correction needed.

I like this idea much better than the rating system due to its possible retaliations it may infer.