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[Rallywagon]

I'm pretty sure you need to get them to a shared status. I don't know how to do such a thing, especially from a phone. Maybe @kcheeb can give some help in the matter.



While thinking out a response to this, you've given me an idea. Parts of this idea have been thrown around before and never gained much traction but with the large influx of new drivers, I think it might be time to revisit some of them.

A new driver probation period. I know we already have probation dedicated to those that get in the doghouse with the stewards but this would be a different kind of probation. A new driver would not qualify for prizes until the probation period was completed. To complete probation, a driver would have to race two full weeks (12 races) and not receive any penalties. They still earn points and are competing for the monthly and nightly championships, they just can't win a prize. Once they were able to do that, it should be enough time to get them in the proper division based on their time trial and their race performance. It might also cut down on the new driver that shows up one week, bashes his way to the front, gets 30 pts. in penalties and is never heard from again. If they know going in that they can't win a prize, they might be less inclined to try and win at all costs.

It's a thought. It may or may not be a good thought but I tossed it out there none the less.

No, I think that is fairly good. I also think this is what zer0 was trying to get started with this post. It sure is a lot less logistically complicated than my idea and should work just as well. I think two full nights worth of driving isn't asking to much either. I can see someone sandbagging the time trial. I don't see anyone sandbagging 12 races.

 

[JLBowler]

No, I think that is fairly good. I also think this is what zer0 was trying to get started with this post. It sure is a lot less logistically complicated than my idea and should work just as well. I think two full nights worth of driving isn't asking to much either. I can see someone sandbagging the time trial. I don't see anyone sandbagging 12 races.

It's also pretty easy to see in a replay if someone is holding back in a race so even if they wanted to sandbag for 12 races, it would be pretty obvious upon watching the replay.

 

[Chiochan]

I'm pretty sure you need to get them to a shared status. I don't know how to do such a thing, especially from a phone. Maybe @kcheeb can give some help in the matter.



While thinking out a response to this, you've given me an idea. Parts of this idea have been thrown around before and never gained much traction but with the large influx of new drivers, I think it might be time to revisit some of them.

A new driver probation period. I know we already have probation dedicated to those that get in the doghouse with the stewards but this would be a different kind of probation. A new driver would not qualify for prizes until the probation period was completed. To complete probation, a driver would have to race two full weeks (12 races) and not receive any penalties. They still earn points and are competing for the monthly and nightly championships, they just can't win a prize. Once they were able to do that, it should be enough time to get them in the proper division based on their time trial and their race performance. It might also cut down on the new driver that shows up one week, bashes his way to the front, gets 30 pts. in penalties and is never heard from again. If they know going in that they can't win a prize, they might be less inclined to try and win at all costs.

It's a thought. It may or may not be a good thought but I tossed it out there none the less.

I think this is a very good idea.👍

 

[intoflatlines]

Maybe hold some sort of weekly new driver orientation room? Prospective SNAIL members would join a room and run a few combos with a couple regular SNAILs overseeing everything. But that raises more issues like what if there are not enough new drivers to have a race, or if skill level is too different, or if a regular SNAIL can't oversee, etc. Not to mention the subjectivity of it all. I don't know, I'm just thinking "out loud".

 

[rankings18]

I like the idea of "traffic skills" 👍 This might prevent many ramming incidents. Anticipation.

 

[DrKronin]

This has me thinking. Can we think of a way to test a drivers "traffic skills", if you will, during the in processing of a new driver? Since about 95% of our track time is in a race and not qualifying, and race results are what we want, not lap times, would it not be better to place a driver based on his racing ability than his lapping ability? Not trying to stir the pot, but stew is best when things aren't settled.
The bolded part is what put me on this train of thought. Lets be honest, the biggest difference in D2-D3 over the divisions under them is consistency right? At least that's what I take away from it. So maybe that should be a parameter we could consider? I just can't think of a way to do it with without either setting up a room filled up with people, turning on boost and seeing how they run in a crowd. I don't think that having them run with AI would really give a good result, since its not very good. IDK, maybe before or after thrusday night practice there could be a new recruit test drive. If we could get enough volunteers, I would give some time on a Wednesday to host a room for this.

Personally, while I do think it would be nice to have more information about a driver before we place them, I don't know that we want to put a driver in a slower/faster division than we would otherwise simply because they're worse/better in traffic. Imagine a new driver posts a time in the TT that would place them in D3, but shows an "in traffic" score at the very bottom. They aren't going to gain as much from being placed in, say, D6. They'll qualify on the front row for all 3 combos and run away from everyone. In the reverse-grid races, they'll pass other drivers relatively easily (something the other D6 drivers would probably not enjoy much). Not until they end up in a division with drivers that have similar pace will they really learn the ins and outs of driving in a pack.

Though it may be frustrating for them at first, I feel that everyone is better served when drivers are placed in a division alongside drivers they find it difficult to pass or hold off. Last year, I remember more than once a time when a driver arrived in D3 or D2 having won a lot of races, but without ever having really had to fight for position very often. It can be quite a rude awakening. Some of them ended up with a lot of penalties. In my opinion, what's best for these drivers is to remain in the higher division, perhaps having a rough month or two. For the most part, racecraft can be learned, and those that make a concerted effort to do so often make a lot of improvement.

Still, I do like the idea of somehow measuring in-traffic ability, if we could find a way to do it. Just not too sure about how to apply that information to new drivers.

@JLBowler: You've brought up the new driver probation period a few times before. Each time, I think I like it. I'd really like to hear from some of the newer members about it though. So, for you folks that have joined in the last 3 months or so, would knowing that you could not win a prize in your first two weeks have made any difference in your decision to join?

 

[Neovre]

How that for a combo? Fireblade and Laguna Seca

 

[intoflatlines]

So, for you folks that have joined in the last 3 months or so, would knowing that you could not win a prize in your first two weeks have made any difference in your decision to join?

I joined in October, and not being able to win combo-picking prizes for the first month or longer would have had zero affect on my joining the league. First of all, I don't think I'll ever win my current division, let alone a prize. But that's not really what drew me to SNAIL. I wanted to have clean racing with drivers of similar skill level, something that I think has worked out perfectly for me in my short time here.

 

[JLBowler]

How that for a combo? Fireblade and Laguna SecaView attachment 114513

We've been there and done that. It wasn't the best racing we've ever experienced mainly because of the gearing of the car.

 

[ptslopoke]

I joined in October, and not being able to win combo-picking prizes for the first month or longer would have had zero affect on my joining the league. First of all, I don't think I'll ever win my current division, let alone a prize. But that's not really what drew me to SNAIL. I wanted to have clean racing with drivers of similar skill level, something that I think has worked out perfectly for me in my short time here.

Agreed, I started in Late December (ish) I didn't even know they existed until I ended up winning it. So it would have zero affect on whether or not a joined the league.

 

[Mirado_7]

I've been here 3 weeks now, and I have to agree with @intoflatlines.
It's really about getting close, competitive, and clean racing on a regular basis. The rotation structure did have some to do with my interest, but a 2 week waiting period to ensure proper placement would not have deterred me. But rest assured that if I do win at some point we will be driving
<---that around Laguna Seca!

 

[Rallywagon]

Maybe hold some sort of weekly new driver orientation room? Prospective SNAIL members would join a room and run a few combos with a couple regular SNAILs overseeing everything. But that raises more issues like what if there are not enough new drivers to have a race, or if skill level is too different, or if a regular SNAIL can't oversee, etc. Not to mention the subjectivity of it all. I don't know, I'm just thinking "out loud".

And that is what I meant by logistics. Not so easy to quantify all the work for what could be little or no gain.

Personally, while I do think it would be nice to have more information about a driver before we place them, I don't know that we want to put a driver in a slower/faster division than we would otherwise simply because they're worse/better in traffic. Imagine a new driver posts a time in the TT that would place them in D3, but shows an "in traffic" score at the very bottom. They aren't going to gain as much from being placed in, say, D6. They'll qualify on the front row for all 3 combos and run away from everyone. In the reverse-grid races, they'll pass other drivers relatively easily (something the other D6 drivers would probably not enjoy much). Not until they end up in a division with drivers that have similar pace will they really learn the ins and outs of driving in a pack.

Though it may be frustrating for them at first, I feel that everyone is better served when drivers are placed in a division alongside drivers they find it difficult to pass or hold off. Last year, I remember more than once a time when a driver arrived in D3 or D2 having won a lot of races, but without ever having really had to fight for position very often. It can be quite a rude awakening. Some of them ended up with a lot of penalties. In my opinion, what's best for these drivers is to remain in the higher division, perhaps having a rough month or two. For the most part, racecraft can be learned, and those that make a concerted effort to do so often make a lot of improvement.[/B]

Still, I do like the idea of somehow measuring in-traffic ability, if we could find a way to do it. Just not too sure about how to apply that information to new drivers.

@JLBowler: You've brought up the new driver probation period a few times before. Each time, I think I like it. I'd really like to hear from some of the newer members about it though. So, for you folks that have joined in the last 3 months or so, would knowing that you could not win a prize in your first two weeks have made any difference in your decision to join?

dealing with just the bolded text. That is kinda the point of having them do a "traffic test." To be sure they are better placed considering all of their skill level. A, hotlapping in first is not the same as doing it in last. And if a guy is terrible in traffic but pulls fast hotlaps, then wouldn't stand to reason that in reverse grid races, they would actually have a worse time trying to get through tracffic? All a moot point tough really, considering the logistics. Bowlers idea is really much more sound. Except... Who wins if the new guy is a winner? The next guy in the division or the next guy by points? If McNewPants wasn't there, then #2 in a division would have been number 1. While second place shuldn't get the prize, I'll admit, it does kinda screw the division.

 

[covan2306]

I had one or two moments the other night where the awkward braking of another driver(what I considered to be strange) did catch me off guard, I did for the most manage to avoid the contact, I think one time I did catch one guy, but I reacted fast and the bumper contact was very very weak, not enough to hurt his racing line etc. On one occasion onmy screen I had at least 1 foot of room between myself and the other driver, but then I hear the noise and he spins, on my screen I didn't touch him..replay shows a different story, I did let him past is this lag or something to do with the rendering from my view?

I think it would be good to run a few "fun races" on a few different nights. Races designed not to observe or judge a racers performance, but simply to allow them to have a less stressful race in which they can learn correct "traffic driving", correct positioning (distance and line) behind the car infront, anticipating braking etc etc.

For me personally there was a lot more pressure than usual due to not wanting to crash, nor effect anyone else race. This in itself may have caused me to make more mistakes than I usually would.
There are also some things that are unclear to me: (concerning Monza with reversed grid race) I started off well, but on the 2nd chicanes I lost my line and ended up just rolling onto the sand on the 2nd turn. I sat by the side, and waited to rejoin safely, I waited for sizable gap and rolled out, but in retrospect did I do that right? There were cars behind me, but in my opinion they werent at pace(race pace).

Edit: Weird thing is that I was trying to be correct, probably over thinking most situations, in one of the races onother driver drove directly through me on a corner, took the lead and never slowed or passed position back, the race just continued with me down 1 place.

 

[intoflatlines]

I have updated my paint color to Estoril Blue on the color spreadsheet because I think the LeMans-Grun I was using was too close to @JLBowler 's green. It's noticeably darker than @JoeW 's blue and doesn't seem to be similar to other paint I've seen on grid these past several weeks.

 

[kcheeb]

im at work bowler. i have the google drive app open right now on my phone and the replays are on "own by me" folder but i cant see a way to send it somewhere else... at least on the phone!!!

I'm pretty sure you need to get them to a shared status. I don't know how to do such a thing, especially from a phone. Maybe @kcheeb can give some help in the matter.

You can move files around on the phone, Android at least. However, it doesn't appear the Shared With Me option is available or having the ability to Move them to another Location accessible to you.

You can share it with me from your phone and then I can upload them.

Go to the Document Properties (it should be a circle with a lower case i inside it) and Add people is there. kcheeb at gmail.com

 

[jobyone]

We've been there and done that. It wasn't the best racing we've ever experienced mainly because of the gearing of the car.

Plus we raced the Caterham a few weeks back. Lets try some new cars

 

[chuyler1]

@covan2306, I have experienced both of your descriptions. I used to get caught off guard all the time but now I leave considerable distance between myself and drivers I know will likely not be using my braking point. I still have panic moments from time to time but when approaching a braking zone I usually try to place my car so that my timing is not dependent on my opponents. It helps with the lag spikes too. Always save your replay incase someone isn't happy with how their internet connection between you two affected the placement of cars.

Another thing I do in traffic that many rookie drivers might not think about is ease into the brakes. Just like driving in real rush hour traffic, it has two benefits. First, you aren't waiting until the last possible second to brake. Second, you give the driver behind you time to react to your brake lights and slowing speed before you commence full braking. Rear end collisions according to insurance companies are the fault of the following driver...but the leader can do a lot to minimize how often it happens.

How many drivers do "warm up" laps where you ease into the brakes, coast through corners, and ease into the gas? Try it sometime. It will help with your consistency to know that you can give up a few 10ths entering a corner as long as you nail the apex and exit the corner at the right speed.

 

[chuyler1]

BTW, I'm ready to make my selection...just waiting for the all clear.

 

[jobyone]

I had one or two moments the other night where the awkward braking of another driver(what I considered to be strange) did catch me off guard, I did for the most manage to avoid the contact, I think one time I did catch one guy, but I reacted fast and the bumper contact was very very weak, not enough to hurt his racing line etc. On one occasion onmy screen I had at least 1 foot of room between myself and the other driver, but then I hear the noise and he spins, on my screen I didn't touch him..replay shows a different story, I did let him past is this lag or something to do with the rendering from my view?

I think it would be good to run a few "fun races" on a few different nights. Races designed not to observe or judge a racers performance, but simply to allow them to have a less stressful race in which they can learn correct "traffic driving", correct positioning (distance and line) behind the car infront, anticipating braking etc etc.

For me personally there was a lot more pressure than usual due to not wanting to crash, nor effect anyone else race. This in itself may have caused me to make more mistakes than I usually would.
There are also some things that are unclear to me: (concerning Monza with reversed grid race) I started off well, but on the 2nd chicanes I lost my line and ended up just rolling onto the sand on the 2nd turn. I sat by the side, and waited to rejoin safely, I waited for sizable gap and rolled out, but in retrospect did I do that right? There were cars behind me, but in my opinion they werent at pace(race pace).

Edit: Weird thing is that I was trying to be correct, probably over thinking most situations, in one of the races onother driver drove directly through me on a corner, took the lead and never slowed or passed position back, the race just continued with me down 1 place.

I totally understand how someones braking can catch you out. That being said a large part of following someone is being aware of what is happening in front of them. I find that when I am following someone into say the first chicane at Monza and there are people in front of them I back out way earlier than I normally would. It is not worth punting someone who is just reacting to what is happening in front of them. Once you get familiar with your fellow racers you start to be able to "know" what they will do.

I remember how nervous I was on my first race night and it does get better once you can relax in to the nights racing.

As long as your pulling back on to track did not impede approaching drivers you should be fine.

If someone ran through you make sure you file an incident. It is the only way that we can address inappropriate driving is if we are made aware of it.

 

[kcheeb]

S.N.A.I.L. comes back in a big way ​

92 S.N.A.I.L.s were on the grid last Sunday Night, setting a new high water mark ​

 

[JLBowler]

I had one or two moments the other night where the awkward braking of another driver(what I considered to be strange) did catch me off guard, I did for the most manage to avoid the contact, I think one time I did catch one guy, but I reacted fast and the bumper contact was very very weak, not enough to hurt his racing line etc. On one occasion onmy screen I had at least 1 foot of room between myself and the other driver, but then I hear the noise and he spins, on my screen I didn't touch him..replay shows a different story, I did let him past is this lag or something to do with the rendering from my view?

I think it would be good to run a few "fun races" on a few different nights. Races designed not to observe or judge a racers performance, but simply to allow them to have a less stressful race in which they can learn correct "traffic driving", correct positioning (distance and line) behind the car infront, anticipating braking etc etc.

For me personally there was a lot more pressure than usual due to not wanting to crash, nor effect anyone else race. This in itself may have caused me to make more mistakes than I usually would.
There are also some things that are unclear to me: (concerning Monza with reversed grid race) I started off well, but on the 2nd chicanes I lost my line and ended up just rolling onto the sand on the 2nd turn. I sat by the side, and waited to rejoin safely, I waited for sizable gap and rolled out, but in retrospect did I do that right? There were cars behind me, but in my opinion they werent at pace(race pace).

Edit: Weird thing is that I was trying to be correct, probably over thinking most situations, in one of the races onother driver drove directly through me on a corner, took the lead and never slowed or passed position back, the race just continued with me down 1 place.

Which view are you using? Cockpit view does not allow you to see the front of your car at all. "Bumper" view is not really from the bumper. The view is located in the center of the car the same distance from the front bumper as the driver position.

 

[IceWarden]

I have updated my paint color to Estoril Blue on the color spreadsheet because I think the LeMans-Grun I was using was too close to @JLBowler 's green. It's noticeably darker than @JoeW 's blue and doesn't seem to be similar to other paint I've seen on grid these past several weeks.

Mine is Turquoise. No one else runs turquoise so any blue should be good.

 

[covan2306]

Which view are you using? Cockpit view does not allow you to see the front of your car at all. "Bumper" view is not really from the bumper. The view is located in the center of the car the same distance from the front bumper as the driver position.

Down the hood

 

[IceWarden]

I think it would be good to run a few "fun races" on a few different nights. Races designed not to observe or judge a racers performance, but simply to allow them to have a less stressful race in which they can learn correct "traffic driving", correct positioning (distance and line) behind the car infront, anticipating braking etc etc.

For me personally there was a lot more pressure than usual due to not wanting to crash, nor effect anyone else race. This in itself may have caused me to make more mistakes than I usually would.
There are also some things that are unclear to me: (concerning Monza with reversed grid race) I started off well, but on the 2nd chicanes I lost my line and ended up just rolling onto the sand on the 2nd turn. I sat by the side, and waited to rejoin safely, I waited for sizable gap and rolled out, but in retrospect did I do that right? There were cars behind me, but in my opinion they werent at pace(race pace).
.

Stop by Drivetrain Challenge on Tues nights. It is exactly this. Great SNAIL racing without all the pressure. AND you get to pick your own cars.

 

[Rallywagon]

Stop by Drivetrain Challenge on Tues nights. It is exactly this. Great SNAIL racing without all the pressure. AND you get to pick your own cars.

I was going to pipe in. There is an event nearly every night now. Probably will be every night once we get full online functions and the track creator.

 

[IceWarden]

That is kinda the point of having them do a "traffic test." To be sure they are better placed considering all of their skill level. A, hotlapping in first is not the same as doing it in last. And if a guy is terrible in traffic but pulls fast hotlaps, then wouldn't stand to reason that in reverse grid races, they would actually have a worse time trying to get through tracffic? All a moot point tough really, considering the logistics. Bowlers idea is really much more sound. Except... Who wins if the new guy is a winner? The next guy in the division or the next guy by points? If McNewPants wasn't there, then #2 in a division would have been number 1. While second place shuldn't get the prize, I'll admit, it does kinda screw the division.

I will comment on this a smidge.

Having some sort of "new guy" probation would also have probably kept Luv2Coach and Maxime out of our hair.

A lot of people are VERY ambitious and think they need to show all these "Snail" guys there's a new kid in town. And the fast track to D1 domination is through their front bumper.

These ambitious guys can throw down a hot lap like nobody else, they can post a super awesome qualifying lap and lead the first race going away.

But, these guys are also vain and think that because they have demonstrated their awesome domination powers...the rest of us don't really deserve to be on the same track as they. So, in the reverse grids, they just dive bomb, push and shove all of us lesser mortals out of the way in order to WIN!

Being a respectful, mature and patient driver is even more important than hot lapping. If you can set a lap 1.5 secs faster than the 5 guys in front of you on this particular combo, you are the much bigger man if you can be patient, fall in line and don't push the situation. Just wait it out...if they don't make a mistake and you can't get around without making contact or creating a bad situation, then it's no big deal. Relax. Be the adult and live to try another day.

I have done this very same thing. It can be frustrating if you are back in the pack on a combo that you just absolutely own but just have fun, wait it out and watch the battle in front of you play out.

I will point out that @Drgreenthumb977 demonstrated this awhile back at Brand's in the Rocket. He was faster than me and another driver but he was also behind us. He created pressure but never got flustered or force the issue. I will say Drgreen is one of the guys who has improved so much in this league. He could have gone down a dark road but he has just turned into a model driver that I just love racing against week in and week out.

 

[intoflatlines]

I will point out that @Drgreenthumb977 demonstrated this awhile back at Brand's in the Rocket. He was faster than me and another driver but he was also behind us. He created pressure but never got flustered or force the issue. I will say Drgreen is one of the guys who has improved so much in this league. He could have gone down a dark road but he has just turned into a model driver that I just love racing against week in and week out.

I think that "other driver" was me. That was an awesome race. You guys caught up for the last 1.5 or so laps and I had to drive absolutely perfectly just to not give it all away.

 

[Schmiggz]

Ok Cheebz, I'm home and opening google drive right now

 

[CoachMK21]

I will comment on this a smidge.

Having some sort of "new guy" probation would also have probably kept Coach and Maxime out of our hair.

...

Being a respectful, mature and patient driver is even more important than hot lapping. If you can set a lap 1.5 secs faster than the 5 guys in front of you on this particular combo, you are the much bigger man if you can be patient, fall in line and don't push the situation. Just wait it out...if they don't make a mistake and you can't get around without making contact or creating a bad situation, then it's no big deal. Relax. Be the adult and live to try another day.

For reference, I'm not the Coach he's referring to. I'm the good Coach (well, at least well behaved). I also had the second part with me this past Sunday. I couldn't make it around people at Silverstone in race 2, but there was no use running over cars to move up. Took 3rd, but that's better than being a jerk.

 

[IceWarden]

This may sound stupid but I've even let people by who I know are faster than me on a combo.

@nmcp1 and I were out front at Monza last week and he was gaining on me. He eventually pulled alongside and made a pass on the brakes by the first chicane. I managed to get a slightly better run out of it and pull alongside and slightly ahead going to the second chicane. I was on the inside line and could have ridden it as deep as I wanted and forced nmcp1 to back out and wait for me to go through the chicane, costing him and myself time. But as I was beside him I just let off the gas, pulled in behind him and allowed him the preferred line. I knew I had not practiced, I could have tried doing risky A-Hole moves to stay in front but it wasn't worth it.

A few weeks back at the final race at Brand's in the Rocket, @JLBowler was in line for the night win but he was in the reverse grid position. After a couple of laps he was hot on my heels and I knew he had a lot at stake so why potentially ruin someone's night by showing how much I can block a faster driver? So I pulled over and let him by without making him go off the racing line.

Anyways, I'm no saint, but when I respect my fellow drivers I will do what it takes to allow them to have a good time when I know I am not performing at a high level that evening.

I even pulled over at Monaco starting in P1 in the second race last weekend on the 2nd corner so everyone could go by. I was only a matter of time before I crashed and no one wants to be the cause of a pileup.