◆ SNAIL [Spec] Racing - Join now to win a Digit Racing EDGE Masterclass enrollment!!Open

[JLBowler]

This is true. But the only way you can gain time is by clutching yourself. When the game simulates pressing and releasing the clutch, it takes just as much time to shift as when you're using the paddles.

Thanks for the accurate answer to my question. My next point would be that if PD was so inclined to fix the problem, all they would need to do is speed up the time used for the simulated clutch so that it more closely matches what can be done with the manual clutch. Of course, this would mean that some cars (most likely those that an advantage can be gained) would shift much faster than they could in reality. I guess PD would be forced to make a decision between leveling the playing field and realism. A decision which they seem to walk the fence on quite often. You know what they say about man who walks on fence? Soon man will fall and crack his nuts.

 

[DesertPenguin]

You're welcome.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

You don't need a shifter to get the advantage a clutch brings in reducing the shift lag. It's been over a month since I've been on, but unless it has changed since then...

 

[JLBowler]

You don't need a shifter to get the advantage a clutch brings in reducing the shift lag. It's been over a month since I've been on, but unless it has changed since then...

Interesting. So you're saying by using the clutch and the paddles, you can eliminate the shift lag that is modeled in the game?

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Oh yeah.



Apologies for the terrible video. I made this a couple of months ago after the NSX at Nurb GP where it was uhhhhh....very apparent. I made a run from a standing start using just the paddles, which is the ghost in the mirror. The car you are riding in I clutched the paddles, and you can see me walk my ghost hard, particularly after the 3-4 shift. I had an even better run where I nailed the clutch timing better for the earlier shifts and started walking myself after the 2-3 shift, but I forgot to double tap the button to record.

 

[SAMHAIN85]

Pretty sure the clutch pedal is rendered useless without a shifter hooked up. I wouldn't have spent $200 on the TH8A and mount if that wernt the case

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I do not own a shifter. I'm on a G29, though I initially tried plugging in my G25 shifter to no avail. Haven't tried it since.

 

[Neutty]

Honestly I tried the clutch and paddles. They are a slight advantage but nothing close to what I can do with a shifter and clutch.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

It's tough to time it right, so there is certainly an added chance for error as well. There is a clear tell as seen in the video above, too.

 

[SAMHAIN85]

Thats so strange because everytime I would test using the clutch without the shifter it would never work. Maybe I was trying it with the wrong cars. Either way, I'm happy with the shifter and I'm getting more and more comfortable using it. I tried out the BMW combo last night and it was a lot of fun banging through the gears.

 

[Sean Renon]

Interesting. So you're saying by using the clutch and the paddles, you can eliminate the shift lag that is modeled in the game?

I don't have an H-shifter, but @MikeGrove could comment on the use of shifters and eliminating shifter lag. Maybe @SAMHAIN85 and @Neutty could also chime in.

As far as I understand it, and again this was only explained to me - and it's rather confusing.

Let's say the car you're driving has extreme shift lag between 2nd and 3rd - and you are very commonly shifting up from 2nd to 3rd. You can leave the H-shifter in 3rd position, use the paddles and auto shift for everything else, but when you are in 2nd and want to go to 3rd you need only slam the clutch and the car will go into 3rd with little to no shift lag. This eliminates the risk of missing your shift, or getting it stuck in neutral - and you can use the paddles for everything else.

Or maybe it was you can premove the H-shifter into the gear you want, then just slam the clutch and it'll shift, basically instantly with no lag.

I don't have a shifter so I can't comment.

All of that being said, shifter users accelerate out of corners much faster than non-shifter users, so there is a drastic shift lag reduction. This is regardless of how you use the shifter (how it was meant) or in the somewhat exploitative way that was explained to me (which I tried to explain above)

Here is a good example.


Look at SRC starting from pole - the initial launch from SRC is good, but it's the secondary launch that is insane - that's the advantage the shifter has. Sometimes the advantage is just the start, sometimes it's at the start and it's accelerating out of corners during the race.

Our most recent endurance race is a good example, Neutty and Sam were doing mid to low 2:16's - my very best lap was a 2:17.5, some of that speed difference could be they were just better - but imo at least half a second of that time is the lack of shift lag (basically I stay in 3rd through the whole track and avoid shifting as much as possible because the lag from 2nd to 3rd is so bad).

 

[Sean Renon]

I don't have an H-shifter, but @MikeGrove could comment on the use of shifters and eliminating shifter lag. Maybe @SAMHAIN85 and @Neutty could also chime in.

As far as I understand it, and again this was only explained to me - and it's rather confusing.

Let's say the car you're driving has extreme shift lag between 2nd and 3rd - and you are very commonly shifting up from 2nd to 3rd. You can leave the H-shifter in 3rd position, use the paddles and auto shift for everything else, but when you are in 2nd and want to go to 3rd you need only slam the clutch and the car will go into 3rd with little to no shift lag. This eliminates the risk of missing your shift, or getting it stuck in neutral - and you can use the paddles for everything else.

Or maybe it was you can premove the H-shifter into the gear you want, then just slam the clutch and it'll shift, basically instantly with no lag.

I don't have a shifter so I can't comment.

All of that being said, shifter users accelerate out of corners much faster than non-shifter users, so there is a drastic shift lag reduction. This is regardless of how you use the shifter (how it was meant) or in the somewhat exploitative way that was explained to me (which I tried to explain above)

Here is a good example.


Look at SRC starting from pole - the initial launch from SRC is good, but it's the secondary launch that is insane - that's the advantage the shifter has. Sometimes the advantage is just the start, sometimes it's at the start and it's accelerating out of corners during the race.

Our most recent endurance race is a good example, Neutty and Sam were doing mid to low 2:16's - my very best lap was a 2:17.5, some of that speed difference could be they were just better - but imo at least half a second of that time is the lack of shift lag (basically I stay in 3rd through the whole track and avoid shifting as much as possible because the lag from 2nd to 3rd is so bad).

Go to 43:30 on the video for another view.
Both SRC and Rednose have a shifter in this video as far as I know - so you get a good idea of the launch advantage compared to non-shifter.
This combo in particular I think the advantage was mostly gone after the start.

 

[SAMHAIN85]

Everything you said is true and how it works @Sean Renon

Also, when watching that clip you can see @Rednose58 pull away from me everytime we would shift from 2nd to 3rd. You can also see me leaving it in 3rd gear in the turn before the Schumacher S's as a way to try and avoiding shifting as much as possible since its so slow.

For launches you basically do as you described:

1. Before race put Shifter into 2nd gear
2. When sitting on grid, down shift with paddles to 1st.
3. Take off like you normally would. When you're ready to shift to 2nd, simply lift off gas, activate clutch, and then back on gas. This can be done in 1/4 second. The game will shift for you since your shifter is already sitting in 2nd gear.
4. Profit

For a long time this was kept "hush hush" behind the scenes, but I'm glad its all finally out on the table now. Everyone should have the opportunity to use whatever means necessary to gain an advantage. Not just a select few.

 

[thracerviewr]

I have a shifter. But I am so used to braking with my left foot (I even do this in my actual car). When I have to brake with my right foot I just don't have the feel for it. Then you also need to heel-toe it on the downshifts in order to make sure the car is not destabilized. How the hell do you brake precisely when heel-toe-ing? I guess it's just practice but maybe someone can give me some pointers?

 

[JLBowler]

Sounds like there is some serious exploitation of what the game allows going on as opposed to using the clutch and shifter the way it was intended. Reading this, you wouldn't even have to use the shifter or clutch when downshifting but you can use it to get a better launch on the start and out of corners.

 

[Sean Renon]

I have a shifter. But I am so used to braking with my left foot (I even do this in my actual car). When I have to brake with my right foot I just don't have the feel for it. Then you also need to heel-toe it on the downshifts in order to make sure the car is not destabilized. How the hell do you brake precisely when heel-toe-ing? I guess it's just practice but maybe someone can give me some pointers?

I think most people just use the auto clutch and paddles to down shift. Then clutch to up shift.

@JLBowler yes the game does not require you to choose between auto clutch or manual clutch. You can have both on at the same time, up shift with clutch for faster shifting, down shift with paddles.

 

[Neutty]

I always want to race others straight up and 100% clean and fair. I will help all to succeed to their best so I can beat the best. I don’t feel it be fair if there is an advantage and I keep it to myself. What Sam said is right. If there is a transition coming in snail I hope it’s not for worst.

I have often wondered if this was still a street car league what kind of conversations we would be having about this. This “advantage” only really complies to the street cars. I can’t see this league splitting up between race cars and street cars. Atleast I would hope it doesn’t.

I think most people just use the auto clutch and paddles to down shift. Then clutch to up shift.

@JLBowler yes the game does not require you to choose between auto clutch or manual clutch. You can have both on at the same time, up shift with clutch for faster shifting, down shift with paddles.

The game is only auto clutch until the manual clutch is activated then it voids the auto clutch for that time during activation. Then it goes back to auto clutch.

Honestly the original Gran Turismo games were designed for controller users and not wheel and pedals. They have kept the same formulas with little tweaks through the years.

 

[Sean Renon]

The game is only auto clutch until the manual clutch is activated then it voids the auto clutch for that time during activation. Then it goes back to auto clutch.

This is where I think things could be better.
I wouldn't mind if shifters had an advantage in acceleration as long as they had an increased difficulty in braking.

Kindve like TCS or other assists, not using them should be faster, but harder to do.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Thats so strange because everytime I would test using the clutch without the shifter it would never work. Maybe I was trying it with the wrong cars. Either way, I'm happy with the shifter and I'm getting more and more comfortable using it. I tried out the BMW combo last night and it was a lot of fun banging through the gears.

I'm wondering today if the hardware has an impact upon the operation. Had someone else tell me, today, that they don't believe their clutch responds without a shifter plugged into the wheel. I run a G29, and they do not....which has me wondering. Will update when I know more.

In my video above you can clearly see Neutral flash between shifts, which is the tell I was referring to above that a clutch is in play.

There is no doubt that this has been known and used, here and elsewhere, for at least a couple of months.

It's been a long while since I've been active round these parts, but anyone familiar will know that I am 100% about full disclosure. When I used to frequent practice sessions, my time was mostly spent trying to help others improve, both through course 'walkthroughs' and pouring sunlight on various techniques and advantages.

See also; my historical 'pokes' at brake bias, rigidity refresher/improvement, etc.

 

[TomMang_68]

kinda takes the fun out of it if you know you have a big advantage over someone without a clutch, doesn’t it?

Anyway it all works out in the end, the faster guys will get promoted and the others will not.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Imagine having a separate Controller Division just for pad users? Just a random thought lol that comes off as super elitist though

 

[Marcus Garvey]

For a long time this was kept "hush hush" behind the scenes, but I'm glad its all finally out on the table now. Everyone should have the opportunity to use whatever means necessary to gain an advantage. Not just a select few.

I probably would have brought this up a couple of months ago when I became aware of it. At the time, being so out of it myself(If I get on GTSport once every four months that's a lot for me...) I assumed this was all common knowledge. Otherwise I would've been in here making cryptic comments with popcorn like I used to just to provoke the issue.

kinda takes the fun out of it if you know you have a big advantage over someone without a clutch, doesn’t it?

Anyway it all works out in the end, the faster guys will get promoted and the others will not.

I agree, though with the caveat that the answer to the question may not be the same for everyone. I think you know me well enough to know where I stand on "all of this stuff." I'm just here to help. (Not sarcastic for those who don't know me.)

Tonight I will try and get some time to take a look and see if I have any other replays. IIRC, I trolled one practice race clutching the NSX at Nurb GP the whole time, and despite missing every 3rd shift I still finished with a solid gap. It was probably worth a second or more per lap for me, with mistakes. If I could execute each shift perfectly, it was probably worth two seconds. It wasn't insignificant. In fact, this issue, combined with some of the others(like the partially depressed brake....) are the main reasons I haven't been able to take the game seriously and return to competition. I've tried, a few times; to find the motivation to get back in it regularly, to no avail.

 

[thracerviewr]

I think most people just use the auto clutch and paddles to down shift. Then clutch to up shift..

I guess that would work. Never considered it. You would need to put the shifter back into whatever gear you downshifted to. But I guess that's less cumbersome than heel-toeing it. I'll give it a try

 

[racingchamp30]

Ready for racing. Will host practice tonight.

 

[Sean Renon]

I guess that would work. Never considered it. You would need to put the shifter back into whatever gear you downshifted to. But I guess that's less cumbersome than heel-toeing it. I'll give it a try

You don't though that's the thing.

You can leave the h shifter in 3rd, use paddles for everything but as soon as you push the clutch in you'll be shifted into third.

So what some people are doing is moving the shifter without clutching into the gear they're going to shift into, then just lift off the gas and pop the clutch down really quick.

Have you been heel-toe downshifting this whole time?

 

[thracerviewr]

You don't though that's the thing.

You can leave the h shifter in 3rd, use paddles for everything but as soon as you push the clutch in you'll be shifted into third.

So what some people are doing is moving the shifter without clutching into the gear they're going to shift into, then just lift off the gas and pop the clutch down really quick.

I understand what you mean with just pressing the clutch to get into the gear that the shifter is in, however I don't think that always applies.

Here's what I thought you said: Use the shifter for shifting UP, use paddles for shifting DOWN.

Now consider this scenario:
I approach a turn in 5th gear and need to shift down to 2nd gear. I shift down using the paddles. Now my shifter is still in 5th. So the trick with the clutch would only help going from 4th to 5th. Since we want to do all our up shifts using the shifter I would first have to quickly put my shifter into whatever gear I shifted down to (2nd gear in this example).
That's what I was thinking of.

Have you been heel-toe downshifting this whole time?

I've only tried, realized I need a lot of practice, never practiced
So I end up not using the shifter when in an actual race. Maybe just for the start of a race. But this discussion has given me reason to try out some other things.

 

[thracerviewr]

Now consider this scenario:
I approach a turn in 5th gear and need to shift down to 2nd gear. I shift down using the paddles. Now my shifter is still in 5th. So the trick with the clutch would only help going from 4th to 5th. Since we want to do all our up shifts using the shifter I would first have to quickly put my shifter into whatever gear I shifted down to (2nd gear in this example).
That's what I was thinking of.

Or put the shifter in one gear higher than you shifted down to using the paddles, then press and release the clutch for the first shift up after the turn. Either way you need to move the shifter, if I understand it correctly.

 

[SAMHAIN85]

kinda takes the fun out of it if you know you have a big advantage over someone without a clutch, doesn’t it?

I agree. But like I said before if you cant beat em, join em.

In November over half our races were done with cars where the shifter can be utilized. I got smoked, and soon after a shiny new TH8A was on its way to my door.

I'm wondering today if the hardware has an impact upon the operation. Had someone else tell me, today, that they don't believe their clutch responds without a shifter plugged into the wheel. I run a G29, and they do not....which has me wondering. Will update when I know more.

That would make sense. I have a T300 with T3PA pedals (if that matters)

 

[Marcus Garvey]

The other driver is on a T300 as well. Will try and get to the bottom of this!

 

[Neutty]

The other driver is on a T300 as well. Will try and get to the bottom of this!

G29 on I am.

Or put the shifter in one gear higher than you shifted down to using the paddles, then press and release the clutch for the first shift up after the turn. Either way you need to move the shifter, if I understand it correctly.

I think you get it but just to be clear. I downshift with paddles.... if I’m going from 5th to 2nd I paddle down to 4th. I can then move the shifter to 3rd no clutch and the game downshifts to 3rd. I can then paddle down to 2nd and then bang clutch back to 3rd when needed. And so on. OR

I can paddle down to 4th paddle down to 3rd. Move shifter to 3rd and then paddle down to 2nd then bang clutch to 3rd and so on.