1980s & 1990s Gr.A RS500, E30, 190E, 240, Supra, R31, R32, DTM, BTCC, ATCC

[05XR8]

Latest entry. Basic set up.

18” RAYS
wide offset only
Type A front splitter
Type B rear wing

All Tuning Shop parts for this build, total about 212,000Cr.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

This is my VN Commodore replacement. It's the 1988 S13 Silvia Q's. It's currently available in the UCD. I've just bought 5 – one for each Commodore that qualified in the top 20 at Bathurst 1991.

Of all the cars in the game, the S13 has the body shape most similar to the VN. Its flat sides, roofline and even front bumper intakes are all very similar. The reason for choosing the Q's over the K's is the availability of an LS7 engine swap, which gives it enough power and makes it sound like it should.

Apart from the engine swap, you need to buy ballast, power restrictor, racing brakes and pads, fully customisable suspension and fully customisable gearbox, plus all the visual bits from GT Auto. The engine swap costs 300k, so it's not a super cheap build.

The rims are 17" Spoon rims with wide offset.

With the power restrictor and the ECU both at 70%, power output is 515hp (522bhp) which is slightly more than the 1991 VN race cars had (roughly 500). I currently have 70kg ballast, which brings weight up to 1250kg. I have the top speed set to 275km/h (170mph) in the auto settings.

With racing mediums, 5º negative camber at the front and 4.5º at the rear, and downforce at the maximum setting (100 front and 250 rear), I was able to do a 2.17:00 around Mount Panorama, which is maybe a little too fast. I'll probably increase weight to 1325kg, and maybe reduce the downforce.

This article is somewhat ambiguous about the car's weight. In the wheels and tyres section, it explicitly says that the car weighed 1250kg, but then in the engine section, it implied that it actually weighed 1325kg.

 

[05XR8]

The http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1987 Cars.html link in the op, from Group N to Group A, show the weight in That 1325kg range, with power from 415-480 HP.

A Quick Look for gearing of a couple VN SS models:

TR Borg Warner T5
1st 3.25:1
2nd 1.99:1
3rd 1.29:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.72:1
Final drive is 3.08:1

Plus, this link https://www.australianmusclecarsales.com.au/sold/1990-vn-ss-group-commodore-build-495-244795
Ratios: First: 2.680, Second: 1.800, Third: 1.290, Fourth: 1.01, Fifth: 0.750, Sixth: 0.500, Reverse: 2.500

Differential: 3.45:1 Limited Slip Differential.

I’m not sure of weight distribution.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

The http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1987 Cars.html link in the op, from Group N to Group A, show the weight in That 1325kg range, with power from 415-480 HP.

Plus, this link https://www.australianmusclecarsales.com.au/sold/1990-vn-ss-group-commodore-build-495-244795

Interestingly, in the second link it says that the VN SS Group A's weight was 1250kg, down from 1325 in the VL. However, they're talking about the road-going version, so it's possible the race version still weighed 1325kg due to Group A regs.

I just checked the qualy times for the 1991 Bathurst 1000, and Brock did a 2:16.1, so my 2:17.00 on mediums with no racing clutch is probably a bit faster than it should be, but adding an extra 75kg of ballast should make the difference.

It's worth noting that the S13 is also a good option for VL mockups, in fact probably more so, given the thin headlights and taillights. It wouldn't need the janky headlight and taillight decals that my VN has. I would make VLs if I wasn't specifically trying to recreate the 1991 grid, the year Godzilla got its first win.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

Does anyone know power and weight figures for the ATCC Supra?

gran-turismo.com

Gran Turismo Official Website

www.gran-turismo.com

All I can find is that it was heavy and underpowered, but nothing in the way of numbers.

Ok, I've found this information which puts the 1987 version at 400hp and 480nm and weight between 1350 and 1400kg. This is for the WRC car, although I suppose we can assume similar figures for the circuit racers?

 

[05XR8]

Does anyone know power and weight figures for the ATCC Supra?

gran-turismo.com

Gran Turismo Official Website

www.gran-turismo.com

All I can find is that it was heavy and underpowered, but nothing in the way of numbers.

Ok, I've found this information which puts the 1987 version at 400hp and 480nm and weight between 1350 and 1400kg. This is for the WRC car, although I suppose we can assume similar figures for the circuit racers?

This is where I got my info for the ATCC Supra.

Toyota Supra: Showroom Racing Great. Group A Heavy Weight. - Shannons Club

2.0 litre Celica racing star and Toyota dealer Peter Williamson upgraded to the larger six cylinder-powered Supra coupe in 1984. This is how his Celica Supra MA...

www.shannons.com.au

Group A Race Car (Aus) | turbo-a.net

I was actually at that Muscle Car Masters event, in September 2011(Father’s Day down here). Took pictures of all the Group A machines, but wasn’t thinking about asking for performance numbers.

From a Japanese racing Facebook page

…the MA70 was not slow, but its underdevelopment basically cut its career short. The Supra was powered by an Inline-6 3.0L single-turbo engine called 7M-GTEU, which was capable around of 400hp.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

This is great information. So I'm aiming for 400hp and 1400kg. Jeez, no wonder it got smoked.

 

[05XR8]

Yup.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

Any tips to make the Sierra not drive like an absolute pig after weight reduction? It's a very easy car to drive when it's stock, but with all the weight taken out, the rear just wants to let go all the time. I don't even just mean in traction zones (which can be solved with careful throttle application), I mean upshifting from third to fourth, or holding full throttle while going around a slight curve. For example, around Mt Panorama, I'll often completely lose the rear going through the easily flat uphill left turns on the way from Griffins up to McPhillamy. Same deal turning into the esses at Watkins Glen. Basically it just spins out if you try to steer at high speed.

I've tried adding ballast and moving it rearwards, I've tried increasing the acceleration effect on the diff, I've tried raising the ride height and increasing rear toe-in. Nothing seems to work.

This is where I'm at right now. Sorry for the UI in Spanish, hopefully it's still easy enough to understand.

 

[cfiore99]

05XR8, I didn’t mention in my most recent post in the custom race thread but all my cars I meticulously tuned using your tunes in here, are all +- 10 PP less than all your tunes. I went so far as to match wheels and still couldn’t get them to match up precisely. Just thought it was strange. Again I super appreciate all your info!

 

[05XR8]

05XR8, I didn’t mention in my most recent post in the custom race thread but all my cars I meticulously tuned using your tunes in here, are all +- 10 PP less than all your tunes. I went so far as to match wheels and still couldn’t get them to match up precisely. Just thought it was strange. Again I super appreciate all your info!

For the Sierra, Wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 ‘89, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 Evo, wheels are 18”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra ATCC & DTM, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra DTM Wide Body to get the desired increased tyre width, wheels are 18”, wide rim width is optional, wide offset.

Keep in mind with aero, the E30s are tail happy. Too much front aero and the rear just looses it. Increase rear aero or decrease front aero for better rear grip.

Any tips to make the Sierra not drive like an absolute pig after weight reduction? It's a very easy car to drive when it's stock, but with all the weight taken out, the rear just wants to let go all the time. I don't even just mean in traction zones (which can be solved with careful throttle application), I mean upshifting from third to fourth, or holding full throttle while going around a slight curve. For example, around Mt Panorama, I'll often completely lose the rear going through the easily flat uphill left turns on the way from Griffins up to McPhillamy. Same deal turning into the esses at Watkins Glen. Basically it just spins out if you try to steer at high speed.

I've tried adding ballast and moving it rearwards, I've tried increasing the acceleration effect on the diff, I've tried raising the ride height and increasing rear toe-in. Nothing seems to work.

This is where I'm at right now. Sorry for the UI in Spanish, hopefully it's still easy enough to understand.

View attachment 1311459

I see you’re on Comfort Mediums. Thats a lot of power and torque for the low grip treaded tyre, with Gran Turismo physics. I use the Racing Hard. Dial the Anti-Roll bars to Level 5 and add a bit more Natural Frequency/spring stiffness.
You can also adjust the Toe Angle. I have mine set with Toe-out. It does make the cars more lively. So I feel like I have to maintain control, like the old school races these cars were in. Decrease the front Toe-out until you feel you have a better balance. The rear toe angle would also need to be adjusted.

Additionally, the real race cars had the same issues with putting power to the ground. May not be ideal for many players, but I see it as part of the car characteristics and I enjoy that part of driving these cars.

A few set ups I run for the RS500

Remember, these are base set ups. It’s how I play. Definitely check out other player’s car set ups that may guide or suit your style of driving.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

I see you’re on Comfort Mediums. Thats a lot of power and torque for the low grip treaded tyre, with Gran Turismo physics. I use the Racing Hard. Dial the Anti-Roll bars to Level 5 and add a bit more Natural Frequency/spring stiffness.
You can also adjust the Toe Angle. I have mine set with Toe-out. It does make the cars more lively. So I feel like I have to maintain control, like the old school races these cars were in. Decrease the front Toe-out until you feel you have a better balance. The rear toe angle would also need to be adjusted.

Additionally, the real race cars had the same issues with putting power to the ground. May not be ideal for many players, but I see it as part of the car characteristics and I enjoy that part of driving these cars.

I knew I should have switched the UI to English before screenshotting. 😅 I just assumed it would be fine because everything is still in the same place, but CM in Spanish is racing medium, as the c is for "carrera". (Since the topic came up, might as well share an interesting fact. Porsche's "Carrera" nomenclature and even the logo font come from Mexico's most famous Targa-style rally.)

I've actually been able to mitigate the problem a bit by reducing the front and rear camber angle. It's still very loose, but better than before. This is where I'm at now. I don't think I can reduce the camber any more, because it's starting to get more difficult to turn the car in.

I just find it weird that I'm spinning out in high-speed sections, like the uphill at Mt Panorama or the esses at Watkins Glen. This is when I would expect the rear end to have plenty of grip and understeer to be more of an issue. Here's a replay of some testing at the Glen. What do you think? Is this behaviour normal and I just need to sort out my skill issue? Or is it weird?

 

[05XR8]

I knew I should have switched the UI to English before screenshotting. 😅 I just assumed it would be fine because everything is still in the same place, but CM in Spanish is racing medium, as the c is for "carrera". (Since the topic came up, might as well share an interesting fact. Porsche's "Carrera" nomenclature and even the logo font come from Mexico's most famous Targa-style rally.)

View attachment 1311859

I've actually been able to mitigate the problem a bit by reducing the front and rear camber angle. It's still very loose, but better than before. This is where I'm at now. I don't think I can reduce the camber any more, because it's starting to get more difficult to turn the car in.

View attachment 1311847

I just find it weird that I'm spinning out in high-speed sections, like the uphill at Mt Panorama or the esses at Watkins Glen. This is when I would expect the rear end to have plenty of grip and understeer to be more of an issue. Here's a replay of some testing at the Glen. What do you think? Is this behaviour normal and I just need to sort out my skill issue? Or is it weird?

Oh yes. The rear gets loose in long corners. Same happens at Monza Curva Grande. It does take a bit of learning the limits of this car.
Still, annoying having a big rear spoiler with no downforce. Yet, PD missed this bit of info:

Weapons Grade: A trip down memory lane with the Sierra Cosworth RS500 - Hagerty Media

The RS500's value today is not just about rarity, because this Ford didn’t just triumph over its rivals in world-class saloon-car racing—it pulverized them.

www.hagerty.com

The double rear spoiler is an example. “The original spoiler wasn’t put there to cope with the 150 mph of the road car,” said Mansfield. It was to deal with the problem we knew we would have at 180-mph-plus on the race track. The spoiler wasn’t engineered for maximum road speed, though we don’t recommend anyone takes it off because it does have a significant effect.”

“All along, Motorsport wanted a spoiler that we never got,” explained Moreton. “Now the two rear spoilers give us an additional 105 kg (231 pounds) downforce at 100 mph and the front spoiler changes give us an additional 20 kg (44 pounds) over the standard Cosworth.”

 

[Elvio_Lento]

I really feel like PD botched the Sierra. The turbo upgrades in the tuning shop add a pitiful amount of power, and the only way to get rear downforce adjustment is by removing one of the spoilers in GT Auto.

Anyway, I'll have to work on my driving to get the most out of it. I did notice that the AI crashed less with it once I reduced the camber, so that's something.

 

[05XR8]

Indeed. Several cars are like that. Remove the rear wing on the Lancer Evo IV and…voila!, instant rear downforce.

I’d take a heavier engine swap, that makes over 500bhp, for the RS500.

 

[cfiore99]

For the Sierra, Wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 ‘89, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 Evo, wheels are 18”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra ATCC & DTM, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra DTM Wide Body to get the desired increased tyre width, wheels are 18”, wide rim width is optional, wide offset.

Keep in mind with aero, the E30s are tail happy. Too much front aero and the rear just looses it. Increase rear aero or decrease front aero for better rear grip.

For the Sierra, Wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 ‘89, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 Evo, wheels are 18”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Sup

For the Sierra, Wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 ‘89, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 Evo, wheels are 18”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra ATCC & DTM, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra DTM Wide Body to get the desired increased tyre width, wheels are 18”, wide rim width is optional, wide offset.

Keep in mind with aero, the E30s are tail happy. Too much front aero and the rear just looses it. Increase rear aero or decrease front aero for better rear grip.



I see you’re on Comfort Mediums. Thats a lot of power and torque for the low grip treaded tyre, with Gran Turismo physics. I use the Racing Hard. Dial the Anti-Roll bars to Level 5 and add a bit more Natural Frequency/spring stiffness.
You can also adjust the Toe Angle. I have mine set with Toe-out. It does make the cars more lively. So I feel like I have to maintain control, like the old school races these cars were in. Decrease the front Toe-out until you feel you have a better balance. The rear toe angle would also need to be adjusted.

Additionally, the real race cars had the same issues with putting power to the ground. May not be ideal for many players, but I see it as part of the car characteristics and I enjoy that part of driving these cars.

A few set ups I run for the RS500
View attachment 1311820View attachment 1311821View attachment 1311822View attachment 1311823View attachment 1311824View attachment 1311825View attachment 1311826View attachment 1311827
View attachment 1311829

Remember, these are base set ups. It’s how I play. Definitely check out other player’s car set ups that may guide or suit your style of driving.

It must be the wide body. I’ve got everything else the same including wheel sizes etc. I’ll try doing a new one with no wide body. Thanks!!

 

[05XR8]

It must be the wide body. I’ve got everything else the same including wheel sizes etc. I’ll try doing a new one with no wide body. Thanks!!

I had a widebody RS500 and with this set up, it was grabbing the front tyres in corners. Loved the extra tyre width, but I didn’t like the look with the raised suspension. Sold that one.

 

[cfiore99]

I had a widebody RS500 and with this set up, it was grabbing the front tyres in corners. Loved the extra tyre width, but I didn’t like the look with the raised suspension. Sold that one.
View attachment 1312344

Super strange. Tried with the one non widebody I’ve got and the PP still comes to 630.xx (not in front of it right now). I’m stumped. Still having a hoot with them. My ocd will have to deal with the PP discrepancy. lol

 

[05XR8]

Could be an adjustment due to updates.

 

[cfiore99]

Could be an adjustment due to updates.

That’s what I’m thinking. Really appreciate all your help/info. Can’t wait to add more 190’s to the mix. I have more fun driving these than my full 992 grid.

 

[OldandSlow]

I’ve had a roll cage change PP, too.

 

[05XR8]

I’ve had a roll cage change PP, too.

Yes. Subtle changes with various parts.

 

[cfiore99]

For the Sierra, Wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 ‘89, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
E30 Evo, wheels are 18”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra ATCC & DTM, wheels are 17”, wide rim width, wide offset. No Wide Body.
Supra DTM Wide Body to get the desired increased tyre width, wheels are 18”, wide rim width is optional, wide offset.

Keep in mind with aero, the E30s are tail happy. Too much front aero and the rear just looses it. Increase rear aero or decrease front aero for better rear grip.



I see you’re on Comfort Mediums. Thats a lot of power and torque for the low grip treaded tyre, with Gran Turismo physics. I use the Racing Hard. Dial the Anti-Roll bars to Level 5 and add a bit more Natural Frequency/spring stiffness.
You can also adjust the Toe Angle. I have mine set with Toe-out. It does make the cars more lively. So I feel like I have to maintain control, like the old school races these cars were in. Decrease the front Toe-out until you feel you have a better balance. The rear toe angle would also need to be adjusted.

Additionally, the real race cars had the same issues with putting power to the ground. May not be ideal for many players, but I see it as part of the car characteristics and I enjoy that part of driving these cars.

A few set ups I run for the RS500
View attachment 1311820View attachment 1311821View attachment 1311822View attachment 1311823View attachment 1311824View attachment 1311825View attachment 1311826View attachment 1311827
View attachment 1311829

Remember, these are base set ups. It’s how I play. Definitely check out other player’s car set ups that may guide or suit your style of driving.

Do you use a diffuser on the rear? That jumps my PP on the ford to 656 with everything else exactly as you have it.

 

[05XR8]

Do you use a diffuser on the rear? That jumps my PP on the ford to 656 with everything else exactly as you have it.

No diffuser. Cars are the ones in the Scapes.

If you can, screenshot your settings.

 

[cfiore99]

No diffuser. Cars are the ones in the Scapes.

If you can, screenshot your settings.

I thought no diffuser, just wanted to be sure. Figured out how to take a screenshot of my settings and save to my activities, now working on where activities are and how to actually post the screenshot here. Lol. I’m old-ish.

Ok, i feel really dumb because I could not for the life of me figure out how to post a screenshot from my ps4. I could take them and share to activities but not figure out a way to post. Sooooo, I took a short video of them and took a screenshot from the video on YouTube. Lol so here are my settings. Whew.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

the only way to get rear downforce adjustment is by removing one of the spoilers in GT Auto.

I ended up having to do this. I hate it, not only because it looks wrong, but also because the aero is simulated incorrectly. However, it makes the Sierra driveable, so it's the cost of wanting to actually race it and not just look at it.

 

[05XR8]

I thought no diffuser, just wanted to be sure. Figured out how to take a screenshot of my settings and save to my activities, now working on where activities are and how to actually post the screenshot here. Lol. I’m old-ish.

Ok, i feel really dumb because I could not for the life of me figure out how to post a screenshot from my ps4. I could take them and share to activities but not figure out a way to post. Sooooo, I took a short video of them and took a screenshot from the video on YouTube. Lol so here are my settings. Whew.

I seriously doubt it has to do with anything, but even the names of certain parts have been amended. "Racing Air Filter" and "Racing Muffler" been changed from just "Racing", early in the game's life. Seems like adjustments PD have made.

I've gone back to Project Cars 2 power levels, at 390 BHP. I'll post a screenshot.

 

[05XR8]

 

[05XR8]

Updated OP with Group A R31 specs.

I’ll have to wait and see how low we can shave off weight. The Group A 240 Turbo was at 340bhp/1315kg. While the stock 1993 SE spec wagon is 1393kg. Shouldn’t be a problem though.

 

[Elvio_Lento]

Pumped for this update! I haven't touched GT7 since I built my PC back in March, but I'll definitely be dusting off the PS4 now.

Now let's see if they give us a VL or VN.