2007 Honda Civic Type-R; A "Superhatch?"

[harrytuttle]

Well I think we are all forgetting that the Si won't be sold in Europe, nor will the Type-R in the US. Given the similar specs, I would predict their performance figures to be very similar given the numbers presented on paper. Could I be wrong? Certainly... I've been wrong before! But, given the current situation that Honda has for the two models, I'd suspect them to be nearly the same given how much complaining went on here in the US when we went without the Type-R Civic and Type-R RSX/Integra.

I think you're right about sales being skewed. While enthusiasts may harp about how we never get "the good stuff" in all the Type-R's that Honda's had for a decade now, and many people talk about how they really long for a Type-R anything, the reality is that the majority of buyers won't know the difference. The subtle nuances of what separates an Si from a Type-R are lost on the general American public. Most will end up opting for the Si, thinking that they're getting a "bargain Type-R", with air conditioning and a radio.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well even then, when was the last Type-R sold in the US? It was the last of the Integras, just shy of ten years ago... Granted the whole "Type-R" thing resonates with many hardcore Honda and other import fans, but for most people, the "Si" badge is just as legendary in the same way as SS for Chevrolet and ///M for BMW. They've been building Si models for years on several different models, so why change it all now?

 

[JNasty4G63]

Well even then, when was the last Type-R sold in the US? It was the last of the Integras, just shy of ten years ago...

Um YSS, you might want to check your watch. The last Type-R sold in the US was in 2001, just OVER 5 years ago. Not almost 10 years ago.

Hilg

2001 Integra Type R

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, I guess my watch is just a bit behind...

I'm sure that the confusion came from the complete lack of coverage of the car by the time it died, added to that the actual fact that the car was quite rare here in the US.

...But, alas, I'm not that big of a Honda fan. After they killed the Prelude, the only things bringing me back to the dealers these days are the S2000 and the Fit (aka the "true" Civic).

 

[Poverty]

So, when multiple people all say that Audi's understeer considerably more than Subaru's, we are all wrong and you are right. Awesome. You sound like George Bush.

lol I love it how you always try to re interprete things to how it never happened.

People said audi's cant keep up because they undeersteer, something that evo's and scoobies dont. I then proved that imprezas do understeer and explained why they do. We then left it at that.

So, your European Impreza figures are better than mine? And stating "the figures you provided cannot be used to compare the vehicles in a fair test" invalidates every single 0-60 test ever.

Put brain into gear please.

Impreza figures you quoted originated from an american source.
Quattro figures most likely originated from a european source.

American figures = Consistently alot quicker than european figures

So the fairest way to compare them was to also get the impreza figures from european source, which in SOME cases tied certain impreza models with the comparable quattro models.

Well, sure it doesn't. Just like the fact that there were only 176 quattro Sports doesn't make the fact that an Evo 6 wipes the floor with it irrelavent. But it sure dampens thing when every Impreza can pull 6 second 0-60 times, and only a small amount of quattros can get close.

The evo doesnt wipe the floor with it at all. People here consider that a Evo 8 FQ-400 can keep up with a murcielago. Well if they consider that to keep up then the Quattro should be easily considered as a neck and neck racer with a impreza as the figures are alot closer.

the video speaks for itself really, as in 0-60 times accroding to that video its the Evo that keeps up

Which is obviously why the Honda Civic took the European car of the Year Award since it is so class leading. Oh wait, the Clio which is in the same class took it. Hmm...

You do know that the clio and civic are in seperate buyers segments. The civic is bigger, but at these awards they always tend to bunch similiar segments of cars together. My word, and the car magazines I read (the cheapo ones that are less performance orientated) think that the civic is class leading, andconsider the clio class leading too. The clio and civic are in different categories.

Anyway back on topic, I will bet my right arm the new CTR would crap all over you Si for obvious reasons, and honda are yet to make a bad Type-R so they have a good track record.

 

[Dave A]

People said audi's cant keep up because they undeersteer, something that evo's and scoobies dont. I then proved that imprezas do understeer and explained why they do. We then left it at that.

First of all, no that's not true, neither Scaff, myself or any of the others arguing against your point ever said that car's don't understeer, rather as has already een quoted in this thread Scaff said "All road cars will understeer when cornering on the limit, I have never said anything different, however Audi's choice of engine placement increases the cars tendancy to understeer a great deal and in a manner that is very hard to engineer out without changing the engine layout." Which is pretty much what we all already knew. The debate wasn't that the quattro understeered it was that it understeered more. This is a point you haven't proven wrong, this is a point that is very true and this is a point that the debate ended on.

The evo doesnt wipe the floor with it at all. People here consider that a Evo 8 FQ-400 can keep up with a murcielago. Well if they consider that to keep up then the Quattro should be easily considered as a neck and neck racer with a impreza as the figures are alot closer.

Yes it does, Vicky easilly overtakes it once, and then after Tiff (the better driver of the two) cheats by cutting that corner by a hell of a lot, she easilly overtakes him again. Also did you notice how on the corners the car was not close to as stable as the Evo, on the straights it was notably slower as well, the Evo is the clear winner here. Even at the end of that clip you hear Tiff saying "It's a wonderful car to drive, but there's no way to catch Vicky now", considering iff is the better driver having raced at LeMans, F1 and much more do you think that if they were fairly evenly matched cars that would be the case. Do you think Vicky would have overtaken twice, very easilly hadthat been the case? No.

Why are you even still arguing this, especially in this thread, by all means re-start the debate in the other one, and you'll get proven wrong again.

 

[Poverty]

Yes it does, Vicky easilly overtakes it once, and then after Tiff (the better driver of the two) cheats by cutting that corner by a hell of a lot, she easilly overtakes him again. Also did you notice how on the corners the car was not close to as stable as the Evo, on the straights it was notably slower as well, the Evo is the clear winner here. Even at the end of that clip you hear Tiff saying "It's a wonderful car to drive, but there's no way to catch Vicky now", considering iff is the better driver having raced at LeMans, F1 and much more do you think that if they were fairly evenly matched cars that would be the case. Do you think Vicky would have overtaken twice, very easilly hadthat been the case? No.

Why are you even still arguing this, especially in this thread, by all means re-start the debate in the other one, and you'll get proven wrong again.

Mate I never said anything about corners in the original thread. I talked about 0-60 figures are you saying that teh quattro doesnt keep up in a 0-60 drag race?

Also bear in mind the quattro in that video is near 20 years old with worn out components, slight modification ie modern backbox, alloys and tires and things would be very interesting.

"All road cars will understeer when cornering on the limit

This isnt true. Alot of cars will oversteer. On the limit most cars undeersteer, but alot oversteer too, its different for every vehicle.

 

[Dave A]

The bottom line is the car wasn't as quick, it was a 350bhp Quattro as well and the Evo walked it. You want to start talking about modifying the car, giving it better tyre's and ect then you can do the same for the Evo, the bottom line is the Quattro IS a 20 year old car, and it ISN'T as quick as a more modern Evo or Impreza, especially not around a track. The higher spec quattro's come close to the 60mph sprint but that's it.

 

[JCE]

Bully for Honda to offer the Type R, but it's not a "superhatch". A true "hot hatch" for sure, but a "super hatch" would be the Type R minus ~200 lbs. and another 40 HP. But let's see if they can make the steering wheel worth holding onto, though. "Honda" and "numb steering" are synonymous to me.

To me there is and was only one superhatch and that's the Clio V6 MR. Nothing else has anykind of "super-ness" to it what-so-ever. RWD + Mid-engined...in a freaking hatchback? Are you kidding me? Brilliant in my eyes.

 

[Tornado]

Put brain into gear please.

Impreza figures you quoted originated from an american source.
Quattro figures most likely originated from a european source.

American figures = Consistently alot quicker than european figures

So the fairest way to compare them was to also get the impreza figures from european source, which in SOME cases tied certain impreza models with the comparable quattro models.

Autocar is a American magazine? I never knew.

The evo doesnt wipe the floor with it at all. People here consider that a Evo 8 FQ-400 can keep up with a murcielago. Well if they consider that to keep up then the Quattro should be easily considered as a neck and neck racer with a impreza as the figures are alot closer.
the video speaks for itself really, as in 0-60 times accroding to that video its the Evo that keeps up

So, a single video defies my figures that says that the Evo VI beats the quattro Sport to 60 by .4 seconds and spanks it in the 1/4 mile by a second and a half? But I'm sure the figures are American, so they are nullified even though niether car was ever sold here, right?

Anyway back on topic, I will bet my right arm the new CTR would crap all over you Si for obvious reasons, and honda are yet to make a bad Type-R so they have a good track record.

Be prepared to lose your right arm then, because there is no reason for that to be true other than you awesome friends on other forums.

I talked about 0-60 figures are you saying that teh quattro doesnt keep up in a 0-60 drag race?

If the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[YSSMAN]

It will be interesting to see how the hatchback competition shapes up in the US. With the growing popularity of models like the Rabbit (Golf), Fit (Jazz), Versa (Tiida), etc here in the US market, how far away is the possibility of a Civic hatch comming back to the US?

...Or did Honda learn their less to stay away from the Hatchback after the dismal sales of the previous Civic Si?

ewwww

 

[JNasty4G63]

...Or did Honda learn their less to stay away from the Hatchback after the dismal sales of the previous Civic Si?.....ewwww

I think they did, and that lesson is DON'T MAKE THE Si LAME!!! The Si needed to be fast, fun, and very sporty. The EP3 chassis Si was not. The engine was bland, it wasn't fast, and it looked like a shoe. It was a decent car, but it was no Si.

The problem with the old hatch was two-fold. First, it was NOT an Si in the traditional sense. So, it didn't appeal that much to people who owned previous generations. I mean, really, they needed something BIG if they were going to try and surpass the ability and following the EM1 chassis Si had. That car is legendary for what it did. And, the EP3 Si was not, and did nothing, like that car, and dropped that ball.

The second thing it did was price itself right out of the market. If they would have just priced it a little cheaper, they may have had something. But, a $20k hatch that looks, feels and sounds boring just doesn't work. If they would have sold it as a $15k Civic EX hatch, they may have had something. But, at $20k, it was just too expensive for what you got.

Now, like you said, the "hatch" thing seems to be coming back. But, I'm just not sure if Honda has room for one here. They already have a nice Civic, so no need there. They have the Fit for cheaper get-around transportation. And, they have the Element for larger utility and cargo capacity. I would love to see another Civic hatch here in the states. I personally LOVE the old EK hatch. But, I just don't think Honda really needs it.

Hilg

 

[niky]

Wow, I miss a lot of **** while I'm out. (On a two week red-eye audit preparation program, and not much time for the net...)

RE: Si vs. Type R

I've stated my case before, and I'll state it again:

Like Toronado and Yssman, I'm very dubious of the decision to go to a torsion beam rear end for the Civic Hatchback chassis. While torsion beam rears don't preclude good handling, as evidenced by the Clio's torsion beamed rump, they're still not an ideal solution.

But then, neither was the move to McPherson struts in the 7th generation... which I hated... that car never felt as nimble or as sure as the previous double wishbone Civic. But the new McPhersons on the 8th gen Civic have dynamic camber in front, so maybe Honda is learning.

I'd still pick the Si. Multi-link rear, possibly stiffer shell, due to the coupe layout, and good looks.

I guess we'll only know for sure when the Type-R comes out, and some enterprising soul manages to get both the Type-R and the Si together for a comparison.

RE: Si not as hardcore?

Let's see, same engine, same engine output, same close-ratio six speed, helical limited slip, sports tuned suspension, aggressive rubber... nope, not hardcore at all...

Face it, the Si is the closest to a new Integra we will see for years to come, as Honda is letting the Integra line die out. If they ever build a new one, it'll probably be based on the Si body.

Now the Integra Type R has always been a little more hardcore than the Civic Type R, but with both the new coupe and the new hatchback sports models based off the Civic platform, the question of which is better is up in the air.

 

[DQuaN]

Poverty & Toronado. I have posted in the thread in which your argument started. I suggest we also use that thread to finish the argument.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Good point on the Integra, Niky. I have no idea if Honda is planning on replacing the model, particularly here in the US (sold as the Acura RSX for folks outside). Sales didn't seem to be as strong as it's predecessor, my guess going to the high-price and so-so performance of the car that was baisically an up-level Civic.