2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

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Perhaps, but why should the car be penalised for being more usable? Why should the fact it's easier to drive be a problem? I can understand it being a personal thing, though I wonder if most regular drivers who think they can drive that commute in their Mondeo's and 3-Series would still have the same opinion after driving both. I'm with you in that I like to feel like I'm fully in charge, I like to be the reason that was a superb gear change and the corner was apexed perfectly (not that I have much experience to do that) but at the same time I'm know that if I was stuck in a GT2 and I thrashed it, I'd probably die. That is a bad thing, if I wanted a usable supercar the GT-R would be a serious option. I don't particularly like the car not a fan of it's looks. But the usability of it is most certainly not something you can, or should be trying to use to put the car down.

In my opinion.
Well, I'm not saying it should be penalized or anything. What I'm saying is that the fact the GT-R came 1 second behind the 997 GT2 does mean it's that great a car like people want to believe. When you actually look at the technical specs, it's not an actual feat because it's basically an extremely driver-friendly car running next to a car that takes a lot of experience to driver fast. Which, is why I really would like to see just how fast the GT-R would be if it dropped the electronics and was as raw as the GT2. Would it come close, or would it show that the electronics are the only reason it's stupid fast?
 
I don't see what the big deal is over the slow acceleration times. C&D themselves said they have pulled sub-3.5 second rips to 60, so I doubt it was intentional sabotage. They were as confused as we are about it.

Thank you for reading the article... It would be great if the GT-R fans would do the same as well. Your car still won ya' know?

RE: Loving the Viper

I've always liked the raw nature of the car, but I don't think this makes me love it. It'd make me respect it, no question there, but if I'm spending my money, I'm still going to the Chevrolet dealer. But that's just my style anyway. Only other option would be a "stripper" Carrera S.
 
What I'm saying is that the fact the GT-R came 1 second behind the 997 GT2 does mean it's that great a car like people want to believe.
Oh my. Oh my indeed. Using your logic the boxing world champion of the 60 kg class isn't "that great" when he's pitted against the 100 kg class guy and surprise surprise, gets beaten. The GT2 is two classes up (Turbo - GT3 - GT2) from the GT-R, it should win easily. It does, but only by that one second which should tell something about how good the GT-R is.

Once more about the electronics, the only electronics controlling something in the car's handling when driving at full tilt are the active differentials. It's advanced technology but to my understanding making the fastest cars in the world is largely about using advanced technology.

To YSSMAN, yes the GT-R won. I'm trying to explain why it did even though it wasn't the fastest car around the track.
 
Which, is why I really would like to see just how fast the GT-R would be if it dropped the electronics and was as raw as the GT2. Would it come close, or would it show that the electronics are the only reason it's stupid fast?
I think it would lose quite some pace without electronics. But then again, the electronics always were an integral part of the whole concept, so without them, the car would probably have looked totally different from the beginning.
 
Oh my. Oh my indeed. Using your logic the boxing world champion of the 60 kg class isn't "that great" when he's pitted against the 100 kg class guy and surprise surprise, gets beaten. The GT2 is two classes up (Turbo - GT3 - GT2) from the GT-R, it should win easily. It does, but only by that one second which should tell something about how good the GT-R is.

Once more about the electronics, the only electronics controlling something in the car's handling when driving at full tilt are the active differentials. It's advanced technology but to my understanding making the fastest cars in the world is largely about using advanced technology.

To YSSMAN, yes the GT-R won. I'm trying to explain why it did even though it wasn't the fastest car around the track.
Congratulations leaving out the rest of my post. PM me when you actually read my post and get your own logic straight and find that your example of boxers isn't the same. :rolleyes:

BTW, stop spouting this "The GT-R can't be compared to this car. It isn't fair". I've seen that numerous times already and all I'm seeing it as is people making up excuses.
The GT-R got its tail handed to it. End. Of. Story. The GT-R is capable of being near the ACR's time, so it's more than fair.
 
Car and Driver does really stupid things with their points system too which really have nothing to do with the numbers of the car and are just based on whatever the driver thinks. I don't have an issue right in front of me so I can't truthfully tell you exactly what it says.

That's actually the number one reason why their scoring system sucks. Even the editorial staff is often surprised by its own results.

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The GT-R did 1:56 on the same course before? Might be different weather that's causing the slower lap-times this time, or a driver difference... (FOR ALL THE CARS, MIND YOU!) Because I simply don't see the GT2 being significantly slower than the GT-R.

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As to whether electronics are what makes the GT-R all that it is... you know what? Let's stop there... because we won't know till the V-SPEC comes out with an "off" switch.

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As for the comparison... the GT-R is it, for now... when the V-Spec comes out, they'll likely re-do the comparison. GT2 - V-Spec - ACR - ZR-1? Ooh... the orgasmic joy... :D :D :D :D :D
 
The GT-R did 1:56 on the same course before? Might be different weather that's causing the slower lap-times this time, or a driver difference... (FOR ALL THE CARS, MIND YOU!) Because I simply don't see the GT2 being significantly slower than the GT-R.
Different weather has been the most guess. This test was thought to have been done in very hot weather while the other test with R&T was done in nicer conditions.
 
I'd just like to remind everyone of the title of this thread.

///M-Spec
ZERO TOLERANCE FOR ASSHATTERY

Remember, this thread is about a vehicle. It's not about a GTP member who likes it, or a GTP member who dislikes it. Let's not take our eyes off this.


Moving on, I'd like to grab a point from thin air:


Yeah, I guess we should also forget that the GT2 is a car that takes nothing but driver skill to control 530 horses through the rear wheels, while the GT-R can actually allow any ol' monkey to drive it fast.

I remember such claims being levelled at the previous GT-R. And the previous previous GT-R. The electronics drive the car. It's not possible to crash it. Even my gran can drive it fast.

It seems that even the owners aren't averse to believing this. So much so that one owner gave his nervous girlfriend her first drive of his R33 GT-R at a track day I was at. The session was red flagged for an hour while she was recovered from the trees.
 
I think Nissan detuned the GT-R to match their ratings.

12.6 @ 111, while slow on the ET side, is dead-nuts for 480hp (at the wheels, mind) in a 3900lb car.
 
RE: 12.6... that's with the launch mode off... as I remember, the GT-R's launch mode makes it as quick as these lighter cars to 60 mph, and almost as quick in the 1/4 mile, but the GT-R is still slower once past that mark. I don't think it's detuning, at all... just that the ultra-fast launch times are courtesy of an amazing launch control system.

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RE: crash...

Reminds me of the aussie story, a few years back, of a couple of kids killed when one sneaked out the keys to his dad's R34 GT-R... tragic one, that... car looked like a crushed Coke can after the accident.

And let's not forget the now... how many? Three? Four? Whatever? R35 GT-Rs that have bitten the dust... and not on the race track or any particularly challenging road, I might add... just through sheer dumb luck.

These things aren't sentient, you know... they're only as good as the nut behind the wheel.

Again... these cars don't drive themselves. The electronics make it easier to control at 10/10ths, but they won't stop it crashing if you're dumb enough to push it to 11/10ths.
 
RE: 12.6... that's with the launch mode off... as I remember, the GT-R's launch mode makes it as quick as these lighter cars to 60 mph, and almost as quick in the 1/4 mile, but the GT-R is still slower once past that mark. I don't think it's detuning, at all... just that the ultra-fast launch times are courtesy of an amazing launch control system.

I'm not looking at the ET. The ET is slow for the trap speed, and indeed, if the car was launching as efficiently as possible with no grip loss, it would tie with the other cars in terms of ET.

I'm looking at the trap speed. 111mph is, as I said, dead-nuts for 480hp at the wheels.
 
And how can you say that? there's no 2 similar dynos, and as we have seen, they all give wide range of results depending of weather and type of dyno.
 
rriight.. and that web calculator you used, did it take weather ( air temp, wind, track temp etc) into account? what about the weight driver added to cars weight? and tires.. were they fresh, or did they do the drag test after beating the car around track? what about the amount of fuel carried? I don't think so..
 
rriight.. and that web calculator you used, did it take weather ( air temp, wind, track temp etc) into account? what about the weight driver added to cars weight? and tires.. were they fresh, or did they do the drag test after beating the car around track? what about the amount of fuel carried? I don't think so..

No, it takes into account one thing: Power to weight ratio.

It then spits out what the car will do with optimum launch.
 
Not talking about dyno numbers.

The trap speed says 480 wheel horsepower.

Trap speeds are often suggestive of horsepower, but not predictive.

Let's go back to what I said in the ZR-1 thread... on a turbocharged car, peak hp and peak torque on modern variable geometry turbo engines don't tell you nuthin' except where designers capped either number to keep the engine/transmission from blowing up.

HP calculators based on ET and Trap Speed assume a number of things:
1. equal traction for all cars
2. equal drivetrain losses for all cars

What they ignore is:
1. drag, or lack of
2. shape of the powerband (they assume a linear curve like you would have with a classic, carburated car with no variable valve timing, variable turbocharging, any kind of turbocharging... actually and computerized variable ignition timing and fueling... not a peaky VTEC-like curve nor a fat turbocharged one... this goes back to the argument I posted on the ZR-1 page about "power under the curve")
3. torque (same banana as #2)
4. The difference of FWD, RWD and AWD
5. The effects of close-ratio or long-ratio gearing

I've got two other HP/ET calculators that tell me the GT-R should get either 11.7 or 12.3 seconds for its given bhp. And that it should be trapping at 116 or more for 480 whp. In fact, no two calculators agree, since the basic assumptions each use are different.

So... which?

Like I posted 1,000,000,000 pages ago... they put the GT-R on the Mustang Dyno... finally... and the Mustang Dyno is the American benchmark for actual whp, and it read just over 400 whp. That's it. End of story. Please, dear Lord, let it end.
 
I read one magazine where they talked to the Nissan engineers about it...they said that the high wheel-numbers were caused by a super-efficient drivetrain, not by "Insurance Rating" the engine.
 
A nice comparison in the upcoming issue of italian Quattroruote, to be released by the end of the month. The test driver is Alain Prost.

There are already some unofficial results and GT-R haters will be very happy.

Vairano track :

Scud - 1:15,1s
GT2 ~ 1:15,2s (allegedly "very close")
LP560 - 1:15,6s
GT-R ~ 1:19s

Prost was allegedly not satisfied with the GT-R handling and couldnt believe this car can lap the Ring in 7:29.

0-1000m took the GT-R about 22 seconds.

Take it with a grain of salt as these results are not official. We gotta wait.
I'm not trying to feed the fire, I just think Alain Prost is jumping the gun on his words.
 
Let's wait for the results.

Not too surprised... the LP 560 and GT2 have already beaten the GT-R elsewhere. Surprised at the difference and surprised that the three Europeans are so close to each other... but I'd like to know what track that was. If it was a high-speed track with... errh... high speed corners, the GTR should lose.
 
If it was a high-speed track with... errh... high speed corners, the GTR should lose.
Here is a picture, for reference:
pista.gif

Not sure which part they did the testing on, but neither of them look particularly slow.

In other news, I am glad at the 10 fold improvement that the Gallardo has gone through. Going from hardly being competitive with the 360 Stradale too being right upclose with the F430 Scuderia is quite a model changeover. When coupled with its prettier looks, it almost usurps the Murcielago in my book. Almost.
 
I've always held the Gallardo in higher esteem... it's as minimal as Lambos get... ;) ...but the Murcie is surprisingly strong and wieldy for such a big car, itself.

Yeah... in all the ruckus about the GTR, the GT2 and the new ZR1... we've certainly overlooked how good the new Gallardo is, haven't we?
 
Lo and behold! They did cheat! They used slicks! :lol:

http://www.drivers-republic.com/news/article.cfm?ArticleID=e04a6f0c52264345be7226968d680bdf

First up that Nurburgring lap. The target for the GTR was always 7:30 - and it had to be achieved in a fully representative 'customer-spec' car. Mizuno is quite clear on this: 'This time was set on a totally standard car, just like a customer will get. For us 'Time Attack' must be repeatable in a customer car. No special brake pads or cut-slick tyres - everything was standard GTR.' The time, set on April 8th, was achieved on the Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST tyre that is standard on the basic GTR (i.e. non Premium or 'Black' spec, which both have Bridgestone RE070R tyres). The Dunlop is a little noisier and not quite as good in the wet as the RE070R, but in the dry it's worth 4-5 seconds around the 'Ring. Incredibly all the tests of the GTR in the UK so far have been on the slower Bridgestone - and yet it has consistently set faster lap times than cars like the GT3.

Wait... standard tires?

http://blog.stillen.com/nissan-gtr/specifications/

Wait a minute... the RE070Rs aren't the stock tires? So... you pay more to buy the car on slower tires? :lol:

Makes you wonder... will the GT-R V-Spec still come with the same run-flats, or will they switch to non-run-flat rubber and a spray can in the trunk?
 
can't you read? the both tyres are offered on GT-R. one set of tyres is similar to the ones used in Lotus exige, hardly pure slicks, and other set is all-seasons, that sacrifice a bit in terms of performance. sheesh.. don't get exited..
 
I think the slick reference was just a joke. :)

Anyway, the question needs to be raised why the standard GT-R is on the grippier tires while the upcoming improved versions of the car use the allrounders. I always thought that you make a standard model with standard tyres and sacrifice wet performance for dry grip with the more powerful models; as to be seen in the BMW M3 / M3 CSL.
 
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