2015 ADAC Zurich 24 Hours of Nurburgring
- Thread starter Tired Tyres
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- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
- 35,281
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
Dammit. Well I'll avoid the last page then, at least I get to see what I missed.
- 76
- France
- LilFab
Back in 2008 Manthey RSR top speed was 287km.h @ Döttinger Höhe according to that press article .pdf .
sport auto"Tracktest Manthey-Porsche911 GT3 RSR"
But this year they got 200 & 250km/h speed limit in some spot due to the drama GTR crash at the VLN race
- 637
- NH
- Whodoyouthink
Back in 2008 Manthey RSR top speed was 287km.h @ Döttinger Höhe according to that press article .pdf .
sport auto"Tracktest Manthey-Porsche911 GT3 RSR"
But this year they got 200 & 250km/h speed limit in some spot due to the drama GTR crash at the VLN race
Wow, and all of the 2-3 years since I first started watching, I thought they were going faster. Partly thanks to GT5/6.
CodeRedR51
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Again, other than the slower lap times (which are really not all that much slower) you really don't even notice it. I don't see the big deal.But this year they got 200 & 250km/h speed limit in some spot due to the drama GTR crash at the VLN race
I also noticed that Audi had a hospitality tent or something in that corner for the race and there was nobody directly behind the fence where they shouldn't be. 👍
- 76
- France
- LilFab
You dont see , but you hear it , rev limiter almost all straight long for GT3's PAPAPAPAPAPAPAPAPAPAPAP !!!
No seriously , I will not discuss, but give you my opinion about this particulary case " not right , or safe zone" because i used to watch at least 20-30minute at this exact place every time for all the VLN/24h i have participate as a spectator ( and by the way , the sad emoticon was for your compatriot who apparently died here not for the speed limit ! ).
But hey nobody , ever , told us ( and i see like 20-30RCN/VLN/24h races ) that this was a dangerous zone , and if you first come as a visitor you may just follow the rest of the visitor to the spectators zone , which this spot clearly was looking by the numbers of people standing here , every time ! Plus , the fact there was always people at this location , the officials of the track cut hole in the protection mesh for you to get nice photo/video windows ( dont say it was for the officials TV/ photographes , they use to walk right behind the rail , not behind the public protecion ) , so please don't argue about this poor guy who die guilty ... And just for you to know , just before wehrseifen at the triple right apex , there is a spot where you can goes down just behind the rail at 2m of the tarmac , and even pass your two legs behind the rail and seat here cause there is ( or was , back in 2008-2009 ) not a single protection mesh here . And again nobody who see us standing here never said us something , even not the officials guy , at this point you got two marshall at like 30m , to your left and they see you clearly. back in time the only thing i remember they told us ( me , my friends and the 5-6 random guy who where here ) was to not pass the rail and keep ourself behind the rail , so yes seat here with your legs on the grass was "Verboten" and stupid , but it reflects the huge lack of security to some place where you not supposed to stand by . which was not the case the flugplatz area ! The only thing you can say is that standing on a corner outside will never be safe and i will agree with you , but ont that circuit 90% of the public area are located on an corner outside Weirseifen, breidscheid ,Brünnchen , Hatzenbach etc... the only famous corner who have an inside spectator area i got in mind is the karrussel !
That said , yes security is imperative and if that need some speed limits it's ok , but i hope that , as i read on Nurburgring website this will be cancelled for something more accurate in right time , that's only a temporary solution.
But come on racing with speed limits...
better to get myself to an golf compétition , and still got a chance that the ball hit me in the Cojones. Sometimes you need to accept the risk , or stay behind your tv watching porn. Do not take any of this personally , but that's my opinion, as a nurburgring fan.
and sorry for my bad english hope no one get an headache reading this.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
I don't want another "yfcvlifgbxhkw speed limits iz dumb innit" debate. The DMSB acted under pressure, under serious time constraints, in a seriously high profile case. They made a simple change, one that nipped the problem in the bud, yet didn't detract from the racing in any way, shape or form, and wasn't even noticeable unless you really looked closely at the speeds. All the hate comes from the simple concept of it, not what it actually results in.
If you stand somewhere sensible, and get involved in an accident, then you can't really be held responsible for anything. If you stand somewhere which definitely isn't safe, using the "everyone else does it" argument doesn't make it any better. Of course you're prone to an accident if you are a spectator, anything can happen - every spectator is fully aware of that. Significantly increasing your own chances of being involved in an accident, just because others do the same thing, is not very clever. I'm not laying blame on the spectator who lost his life - any one of those fans could've been hit. However, if he voluntarily stood somewhere that put him in significantly more harm's way than is sensible, then he alone was the one who took that extra risk.
- 76
- France
- LilFab
As i said i will not respond on any comment about the safe or not public zone debate too , i want only clarify my opinion about the " everyone else does " that's not what i wanna say and i'm misunderstood cause of my lack of english grammar to explain my point of view , sorry . What i try to say , is , the fact than when your come in an 100% unfamiliar place where you don't know nothing like this big circuit , you will first past one hour or two to find where you are lost in the forest , and then follow people who stand in a nice spectator zone , cause there are not something saying " DANGER your in a dangerous zone , we cut the tree to people to get here , Cut hole in mesh so you can take great pictures , put an Würst stand at 50m of here so you can Eat watching the race , BUT DO NOT COME HERE IT'S UNSAFE because the rail , the tire wall and even the big 3.5meter protection mesh will save your life the day a car will start to fly over . Have a nice day at Nürbugring Nordschleife circuit ".
Now imagine those crash was located at Adenau bridge like 5years ago , when the Sound deadening wall was still not in place , this car probably ended on the public road below that bridge and kill someone too . So with your point of view nobody should drive , walk or even pass under that bridge because it's potentially a Dangerous zone ?!
That's what i was try to let you understand. But like you said , every spectator is or should be , fully aware of that risk , just like nemo censetur ignorare legem
Now about the speed impact on race...
I can't agree with that opinion even if i understood it , speed limit is a bit more than a feeling for some of the competitors , clear exemple the Subaru , this car with his 335-340hp do not get over 250-255km/h in normal form so they dont have almost any limitation on the 2km straight where SP7 SP8 9 etc... lost a bit time , every single lap ! At the end the subaru ( and lot of other cars ) got an advantage , and this resulting in this case of a SP3T car who have beaten ALL the SP7/ Porsche CUP cars ... " something that would not have been possible without the speed limitation " from the mouth of the STI team chef himself in one of the end race interview .And that's not Fair for those SP7 teams who probably loose some places because of that , or even the car in the same SP9/GT3 class who got an advantage against some other SP9 opponent in top speed , they simply lost it .
So in a race where they add an " balance of peformance " for top class a few years ago and have the decision to exclude the cars under 1800cc because of the lack of top speed , because that was dangerous etc... that's clearly not a good solution and hope not a final solution to this security concern.
And ... i'm done.
, and then follow people who stand in a nice spectator zone , cause there are not something saying " DANGER your in a dangerous zone , we cut the tree to people to get here , Cut hole in mesh so you can take great pictures , put an Würst stand at 50m of here so you can Eat watching the race , BUT DO NOT COME HERE IT'S UNSAFE because the rail , the tire wall and even the big 3.5meter protection mesh will save your life the day a car will start to fly over . Have a nice day at Nürbugring Nordschleife circuit ".Now imagine those crash was located at Adenau bridge like 5years ago , when the Sound deadening wall was still not in place , this car probably ended on the public road below that bridge and kill someone too . So with your point of view nobody should drive , walk or even pass under that bridge because it's potentially a Dangerous zone ?!
That's what i was try to let you understand. But like you said , every spectator is or should be , fully aware of that risk , just like nemo censetur ignorare legem
Now about the speed impact on race...
I can't agree with that opinion even if i understood it , speed limit is a bit more than a feeling for some of the competitors , clear exemple the Subaru , this car with his 335-340hp do not get over 250-255km/h in normal form so they dont have almost any limitation on the 2km straight where SP7 SP8 9 etc... lost a bit time , every single lap ! At the end the subaru ( and lot of other cars ) got an advantage , and this resulting in this case of a SP3T car who have beaten ALL the SP7/ Porsche CUP cars ... " something that would not have been possible without the speed limitation " from the mouth of the STI team chef himself in one of the end race interview .And that's not Fair for those SP7 teams who probably loose some places because of that , or even the car in the same SP9/GT3 class who got an advantage against some other SP9 opponent in top speed , they simply lost it .
So in a race where they add an " balance of peformance " for top class a few years ago and have the decision to exclude the cars under 1800cc because of the lack of top speed , because that was dangerous etc... that's clearly not a good solution and hope not a final solution to this security concern.
And ... i'm done.
- 2,026
- Vienna
- chrisspeed281
the Bentley GT3 #85 is a must have for GT6
Tired Tyres
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- West Yorkshire
- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
The 2nd place BMW Z4 set fastest lap on 8:18.690 slow zones included so I don't think it was that big a deal. The DMSB had a big responsibility with contacts and budgets in place for this race and the VLN. They did the best they could under those conditions. I didn't agree with the speed limits, but that's the only thing I didn't agree with and overall they did what they had to to let the racing continue.
Now there is a much bigger decision to make ahead of next season and if it's a choice between track changes and car changes then I vote for car changes multiplied by infinity.
It's time to remove GT3 from the equation. They are too fast for the track. GT4 should be the new limit.
Now there is a much bigger decision to make ahead of next season and if it's a choice between track changes and car changes then I vote for car changes multiplied by infinity.
It's time to remove GT3 from the equation. They are too fast for the track. GT4 should be the new limit.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
So much this. Either save the future GT3 by limiting the extent aerodynamic devices can be applied to the cars, or let GT3 spiral out of control on its own and run classes that suit the track.
- 2,789
- mount doom
- coilerdh
- no.no.
Yes , BIGGEST looker at the N24.
- 1,433
- Germany
- psychoazubi
- 2,789
- mount doom
- coilerdh
- no.no.
I sure hope so, just it was not ingame in the pre release builds.Buy project cars, that game will have it in a few days/weeks
- 1,433
- Germany
- psychoazubi
- 11,255
- Sweden
- eran0004
Everyone had the same speed limits so it was fair for everyone. Just because you're in a higher class you're not guaranteed to finish ahead of the lower classes. Whoever does the best race in the given the conditions will win, and it's not at all certain that the car with the most power and the highest top speed is the best car.
- 3,978
- Netherlands
- skazz-race
- skazzracer
They were discussing this in the RML commentary quite a bit: Change the track or change the cars.
Trouble is, GT3 is huge, popular, getting stronger all the time. A huge group of manufacturers are investing heavily into it (Aston, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Chevrolet (Corvette/Camaro), Ferrari, Ginetta, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Maserati(?), McLaren, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche). Yes, the risk is that GT3 becomes the new GT1, with spiralling costs and ever increasing speeds.
But GT3 is so successful because it offers such a wide variety of cars and yet BoP keeps them very close together. Which results in large fields (just look at Blancpain over the last couple of years exploding in size). Which results in a positive feedback loop as manufacturers invest more to achieve success.
GT4 is very rudimentary in comparison. There are only a few homolgated options and little interest from most of the big manufacturers. Yes, there's Porsche, Aston, Lotus, BMW, KTM, Ginetta but Nurburgring 24h couldn't just leave Mercedes and Audi without options to win the top class next year, that would simply not be feasible.
Track changes are even more difficult. I'd hate to see them revise the track to slow cars down at certain critical points: It would be a huge shame. But I'm sure they are looking at that.
In the end I guess they have to choose between two bad ideas:
1. Bring a revised GT3 specification/BoP for next year with restrictors or other tricks to reduce speeds at dangerous corners... something which would have to go through SRO and manufacturer support.
2. Change the Nordschleife (maybe just adding run-off areas, maybe track changes).
Trouble is, GT3 is huge, popular, getting stronger all the time. A huge group of manufacturers are investing heavily into it (Aston, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Chevrolet (Corvette/Camaro), Ferrari, Ginetta, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Maserati(?), McLaren, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche). Yes, the risk is that GT3 becomes the new GT1, with spiralling costs and ever increasing speeds.
But GT3 is so successful because it offers such a wide variety of cars and yet BoP keeps them very close together. Which results in large fields (just look at Blancpain over the last couple of years exploding in size). Which results in a positive feedback loop as manufacturers invest more to achieve success.
GT4 is very rudimentary in comparison. There are only a few homolgated options and little interest from most of the big manufacturers. Yes, there's Porsche, Aston, Lotus, BMW, KTM, Ginetta but Nurburgring 24h couldn't just leave Mercedes and Audi without options to win the top class next year, that would simply not be feasible.
Track changes are even more difficult. I'd hate to see them revise the track to slow cars down at certain critical points: It would be a huge shame. But I'm sure they are looking at that.
In the end I guess they have to choose between two bad ideas:
1. Bring a revised GT3 specification/BoP for next year with restrictors or other tricks to reduce speeds at dangerous corners... something which would have to go through SRO and manufacturer support.
2. Change the Nordschleife (maybe just adding run-off areas, maybe track changes).
Tired Tyres
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
I'm sure the GT3 manufacturers would be more than happy to sell their customers GT4 cars!
GT3 isn't about N24/VLN. GT3 is in large numbers of other series. Losing them from N24/VLN is nothing at all in that sense. The other series will still go on.
GT3 isn't about N24/VLN. GT3 is in large numbers of other series. Losing them from N24/VLN is nothing at all in that sense. The other series will still go on.
- 1,433
- Germany
- psychoazubi
Changing the Nordschleife? No way. DMSB is sane enough not to change the track even a little bit. This track is as historical as it can get (even with asphalt from 1927!) and it is the myth of the Green Hell that makes this track so attractive.
The 24h race existed long before GT3 cars existed and it will exist without them. There may be a loss of spectators, but the majority isn't there for the GT3 cars.
I could image extra weight or different air restrictions for VLN and 24h. Something like GT3N class with less power. Same cars, less speed. That would make the whole race alot safer considering there are Golf's with a 2 liter enginge and less than 200 horsepower in the same race.
- 3,978
- Netherlands
- skazz-race
- skazzracer
My point was, losing the GT3 class and switching to GT4 loses Audi/Mercedes from the top class. That might not have been important 5 years ago, but VLN/N24 today is a very different place.
GT3N would be the only way forward, but it will only work if the big German four (Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche) are all willing to work with it. Other GT3 marques are much less important, of course.
GT3N would be the only way forward, but it will only work if the big German four (Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche) are all willing to work with it. Other GT3 marques are much less important, of course.
Tired Tyres
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
There is nothing stopping Audi/Mercedes or anyone else making and selling a GT4 car.
VLN pre N24 (for qualification) and N24 are the only important races at the track. The rest of the GT3 world will go on. The sky will not fall in. Proof of that are the GT3 races that clash with the VLN.
VLN pre N24 (for qualification) and N24 are the only important races at the track. The rest of the GT3 world will go on. The sky will not fall in. Proof of that are the GT3 races that clash with the VLN.
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