2019 F1 Constructor Thread Personnel/DevFormula 1

[TheElbows]

Boy...are we set to see some kind of biblical-level low for Williams? Late car. Illegal car. (Ugly car)...and then Lowe bowing out (i.e. probably asked to leave). This will become something to watch...wow.

 

[Josa]

Link to the video posted by F1 on Facebook comparing the fastest laps from Vettel and Hamilton.
Hamilton makes a mistake on turns 7/8 and Vettel is not that good on the final chicane.

 

[EngieDiesel]

Boy...are we set to see some kind of biblical-level low for Williams? Late car. Illegal car. (Ugly car)...and then Lowe bowing out (i.e. probably asked to leave). This will become something to watch...wow.

I reckon it will be like watching a steamroller slowly approaching a box full of kittens, only with even more of a feeling of impending doom because at least there's a chance the kittens might get up and run away.

 

[TheElbows]

I want to not be intrigued by how tragic this could be for Williams, but I can't look away! (literally watched part of miniseries today about the 93 season...back when Williams and McLaren were good. I wonder what they would have thought had you told them then how poor they would be performing in 30 years time.)

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I agree with Patty's earlier sentiments that pinning all the blame on him is unwise, and I'm wondering when people will start looking at Clair and say perhaps she is part of the issue, similar to Monisha and Ron, it could be said since they've left that those teams have been heading in better directions than they were in.

Also let's not forget, that massive changes to the leadership happened last year too which seemed to have ripple effects on how the car developed throughout the season. This is Paddy's second season and I get the feeling that Clair and Williams investors expected a biblical like miracle to occur by hiring him but if they problem is far too systemic, having someone come in that worked on two championship teams and helped steer them toward those championships isn't going to be enough.

To me it'd be akin to hiring either one of the few current WDCs and expecting them to drive the car further up the grid all the time when the issues are bigger than that.

 

[EngieDiesel]

I agree with Patty's earlier sentiments that pinning all the blame on him is unwise, and I'm wondering when people will start looking at Clair and say perhaps she is part of the issue, similar to Monisha and Ron, it could be said since they've left that those teams have been heading in better directions than they were in.

Also let's not forget, that massive changes to the leadership happened last year too which seemed to have ripple effects on how the car developed throughout the season. This is Paddy's second season and I get the feeling that Clair and Williams investors expected a biblical like miracle to occur by hiring him but if they problem is far too systemic, having someone come in that worked on two championship teams and helped steer them toward those championships isn't going to be enough.

To me it'd be akin to hiring either one of the few current WDCs and expecting them to drive the car further up the grid all the time when the issues are bigger than that.

Oh, definitely. It's not like other sports where they can bring in one star player and have them carry the team all season. Motorsports is even more complicated, as each team develops their own individual culture and it can be quite hard to adapt to if you've been part of a different team for a long time.

Heck, just look at how many times a championship winning NASCAR driver or crew chief went to a different team and did nothing noteworthy, mostly because they just never really managed to fit in with the new organization.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

 

[TenEightyOne]

Patrick Head has returned to Williams. He's a tough guy to work with by all accounts but his track record (literally) is undeniably excellent. With that said, he's been away from F1 a long time but perhaps he can shake some life into the Williams car.

 

[mustafur]

Canada exposed some big changes in the Engine front with big development gains by Ferrari and Renault.

Ferrari have the undisputed best engine on the grid at this point with Renault looking like they have caught right up to Mercedes, since their engine spec change in Monaco both Renault powered teams looked dominant in the midfeild.

Ferrari still have a big Chassis/Aero weakness to Mercedes and it's telling despite their massive advantage in sector 3 in Canada they where barely faster over the lap and pace wise in the race was minimal.

Redbull may be wishing they didn't jump ship now as Honda was really exposed at Canada, Torro Rosso despite a clean race was miles from the points and Redbull being Split by the Renaults in the race and Beaten in Qualifying.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Canada exposed some big changes in the Engine front with big development gains by Ferrari and Renault.

Ferrari have the undisputed best engine on the grid at this point with Renault looking like they have caught right up to Mercedes, since their engine spec change in Monaco both Renault powered teams looked dominant in the midfeild.

Ferrari still have a big Chassis/Aero weakness to Mercedes and it's telling despite their massive advantage in sector 3 in Canada they where barely faster over the lap and pace wise in the race was minimal.

Redbull may be wishing they didn't jump ship now as Honda was really exposed at Canada, Torro Rosso despite a clean race was miles from the points and Redbull being Split by the Renaults in the race and Beaten in Qualifying.

Here's the problem with that analysis, the idea is that Honda with RBR can be leap frogged by a much weaker aero team like Renault, they wont be any time prior to 2021 it could be argued. Second and the more real world reasons for the difference in engine power is that Honda gave an early upgrade to its teams, this is the newest upgrade Renault has done and will probably not see another for some time. Honda seems to update more often, and even have a planned upgrade for the next GP. So what ever gains Renault found could be marginalized pretty soon. What is probably more important here is that based on a single weekend you suggest that RB might wish they haven't jumped ship...but I haven't seen any engine faults between the two teams running Honda, that reared their heads during this time with Renault over the past seasons. And if we were to expand that into what engine fault McLaren faced and that of others it become quite obvious... Furthermore, Honda has made more useful gains in a shorter time than Renault.

Now here's the issue with Ferrari in their pursuit of Mercedes, while gains were made by Ferrari they were minimal as said. However, Mercedes is the only team to run an unchanged system until Canada. Bottas struggled and had a horrible weekend that was not indicative of the car's true potential or even Bottas's potential he's shown prior to this. Also Mercedes by their own admission was conservative during the race, and after the first stop and changes made to Lewis's car did they realize they could have been more aggressive and probably undercut Vettel instead. Though didn't matter much Vettel was driven into making a mistake (again) and we know the rest.

So despite the gain engine wise they made, Ferrari only at best broke even, and thus still has so much ground to make up.

 

[mustafur]

Here's the problem with that analysis, the idea is that Honda with RBR can be leap frogged by a much weaker aero team like Renault, they wont be any time prior to 2021 it could be argued. Second and the more real world reasons for the difference in engine power is that Honda gave an early upgrade to its teams, this is the newest upgrade Renault has done and will probably not see another for some time. Honda seems to update more often, and even have a planned upgrade for the next GP. So what ever gains Renault found could be marginalized pretty soon. What is probably more important here is that based on a single weekend you suggest that RB might wish they haven't jumped ship...but I haven't seen any engine faults between the two teams running Honda, that reared their heads during this time with Renault over the past seasons. And if we were to expand that into what engine fault McLaren faced and that of others it become quite obvious... Furthermore, Honda has made more useful gains in a shorter time than Renault.

Now here's the issue with Ferrari in their pursuit of Mercedes, while gains were made by Ferrari they were minimal as said. However, Mercedes is the only team to run an unchanged system until Canada. Bottas struggled and had a horrible weekend that was not indicative of the car's true potential or even Bottas's potential he's shown prior to this. Also Mercedes by their own admission was conservative during the race, and after the first stop and changes made to Lewis's car did they realize they could have been more aggressive and probably undercut Vettel instead. Though didn't matter much Vettel was driven into making a mistake (again) and we know the rest.

So despite the gain engine wise they made, Ferrari only at best broke even, and thus still has so much ground to make up.

Considering I was talking about engines and not the complete car everything I said pretty much applies, in the 3rd sector Ricciardo surpassed any time done by a Redbull(it's all straights with the Chicane in-between) and Ferrari was Much faster then Mercedes there as well, but was down alot in the other sectors.

No doubt Ferrari is well behind Mercedes, but the Power track allowed them to be more competitive, same applies to Renault.

From what I know Renault have a Big update at the next GP as well, so I wouldn't be Soo quick to be preemptive with your judgement vs Honda, I'm only talking facts here and Renault have leaps well beyond Honda at this point in the Power front, reliability is a different story though, as a car I don't see Renault being even on the same Planet as the Redbull this year, though so not sure why you thought I was comparing the complete package I never said that.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Considering I was talking about engines and not the complete car everything I said pretty much applies, in the 3rd sector Ricciardo surpassed any time done by a Redbull(it's all straights with the Chicane in-between) and Ferrari was Much faster then Mercedes there as well, but was down alot in the other sectors.

I know you were talking about engines, but the point is that even if the Renault engines were 50 to 100 hp more they'd still have such massive short comings to RBR outside power circuits it wouldn't matter. That was the point, along with the more bigger point that you seem to be ignoring which is again Honda jumped the gun with updates, and we saw how those updates proved pretty useful especially for Toro Rosso. Now Honda has an update to come for the French GP. All of this again just shows that no I don't see RBR ever regretting the switch, more so if they go the way it has been for them.

Renault have had five engine issues (iirc) during races this season, to Honda's zero. And despite what certain people said last year when McLaren switched over to Renault, Honda was still the better unit. This season they're an even better unit. So I think the stigma about Honda during the tentative years with McLaren permeating through time is worn out.

No doubt Ferrari is well behind Mercedes, but the Power track allowed them to be more competitive, same applies to Renault.

No, Ferrari made a gain for sure, Renault not so much in my view. Ferrari and Merc both brought upgrades, and yet Ferrari's upgrade by the numbers seemed more pivotal. Renault vs Honda again, is not the same. Renault brought an upgrade, Honda did not. Honda's was a couple of GP prior. Renault in reality needed this upgrade from a power and reliability stand point. Honda will have a new upgrade in France. They also have incremental plans, while Renault did one upgrade in Spain for performance and another in Canada. Honda only had their upgrade in Baku. So if it takes two upgrades to leap frog Honda, who by the way only did the Baku upgrade for continued reliability, then what does that mean for Renault when Honda finally does a power upgrade?

Same for Ferrari really, they have had three upgrades really. and it took that many to only gain a slight advantage to Mercedes.

From what I know Renault have a Big update at the next GP as well, so I wouldn't be Soo quick to be preemptive with your judgement vs Honda, I'm only talking facts here and Renault have leaps well beyond Honda at this point in the Power front, reliability is a different story though, as a car I don't see Renault being even on the same Planet as the Redbull this year, though so not sure why you thought I was comparing the complete package I never said that.

I haven't seen anything saying that, but even if they did again. Honda has a performance upgrade set up for France, they haven't had any this year and yet have been strong and may get stronger. Renault's upgrade could simply be reliability efforts or power or both. Renault doesn't have leaps beyond Honda they have made gains but took 3 times as many as Honda to get there. And there is still the issue of reliability which Honda seems to so far have fixed.

Again the complete package matters, because as the thread says this is about constructor development at a whole, and while the engine is important it really is only matters so much. If engine gains make you excited for the prospect of change that most likely wont happen, then more power to you.

 

[mustafur]

Your making a whole heap of assumptions really, not all upgrades are the same and the fact is Honda is well Behind Renault and to assume their next upgrade will equal Renault is really just a complete guess on your part.

Renault had an engine upgrade in Monaco not Canada and it really wasn't an engine upgrade, all it was is they stopped limiting power for reliability because they fixed an issue with the Conrods(which really was just a small fix on the Spain upgrade).

As said before they have a Huge Upgrade for the French GP which is supposed to be their biggest of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/143853/renault-set-for-substantial-upgrade-at-french-gp

Will it work? Who knows, I'm not a Genie, I can't go into the future and give you an answer

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Your making a whole heap of assumptions really, not all upgrades are the same and the fact is Honda is well Behind Renault and to assume their next upgrade will equal Renault is really just a complete guess on your part.

No I'm really not, and the fact that results thus far and side with me, is credit to the point I'm making. I never said all upgrades were the same, what I said was that upgrades done thus far by certain groups are too quick to give credit to, simply because other teams have yet to commit to the same level. Honda isn't well behind Renault, if being well behind is them only doing a reliability upgrade while Renault has done 3 upgrades (power and/or reliability) and still blowing up...that's pretty sad if it took that long to get ahead. Honda brings a performance upgrade to France while Renault brings a package upgrade of aero and with reliability parts for the engine. We'll see how that shapes up.

Also one thing we haven't said is, RBR are the team they have had primary focus from Honda since Singapore of last year when they got the green light to say to hell with component allotment and use STR as a test bed. Same this season, STR is a useful tool to see how it is performing at the mid level to help RBR make gains. I mean seeing Verstappen lap down the two Renault doesn't instill confidence that these "gains" are as massive as you want to claim.

Renault had an engine upgrade in Monaco not Canada and it really wasn't an engine upgrade, all it was is they stopped limiting power for reliability because they fixed an issue with the Conrods(which really was just a small fix on the Spain upgrade).

Again I was talking about entire package they brought upgrades to Canada and planned bigger upgrades for France as I saw this morning on F1fanatic. They also did again 3 engine upgrades, one post winter testing, Spain, and Monaco. Honda again has only done one. Honda has had no engine issues during races, Renault has had about five. Couple that with the fact this is a new engine this season for Renault.

As said before they have a Huge Upgrade for the French GP which is supposed to be their biggest of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/143853/renault-set-for-substantial-upgrade-at-french-gp

Yeah I saw it after the fact earlier today on F1fanatic when I looked for it, thanks for posting the link after you had first said it

Will it work? Who knows, I'm not a Genie, I can't go into the future and give you an answer

No one said you could but, I'd be willing to bet that at the end of the day Renault wont make any great gains on the team they're chasing which is is RBR. Now if the "talented" Gasly keeps giving them a freebie perhaps. I'm basing what I know off of what we know for now and the recent historical short comings of both Renault and Honda, as well as Renault and RBR. There really is no other way to forecast it.

 

[mustafur]

I don't know what point your trying to make here, the Renault is clearly ahead of the Honda on the power front you want evidence look at the sector times on the 3rd sector and the speed trap speeds, Gasly on a.similar strategy to Ricciardo couldn't pass Stroll that Ricciardo was able to do first try as he had enough speed on the straight to do it.

Your Completely Delusional if you think Honda's engine package is at the same level, sure it might be more reliable but I wasn't talking about that was I I just started the undisputed fact that the Renault engine is.make.more power then the Honda engine, Redbulls chassis isn't a Honda Chassis last I checked so I'm not really getting your convoluted point on that and it's completely Irrelevant to what I said.

Your talking as if the fact that Renault has more Power then Honda at this moment in time is an Insult to you personally dude, facts are facts.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't know what point your trying to make here, the Renault is clearly ahead of the Honda on the power front you want evidence look at the sector times on the 3rd sector and the speed trap speeds, Gasly on a.similar strategy to Ricciardo couldn't pass Stroll that Ricciardo was able to do first try as he had enough speed on the straight to do it.

Re-read then, Gasly is night and day to his opponent so why using him as the litmus test to prove the gains of Renault is interesting at best, disingenuous at worst.

Your Completely Delusional if you think Honda's engine package is at the same level, sure it might be more reliable but I wasn't talking about that was I I just started the undisputed fact that the Renault engine is.make.more power then the Honda engine, Redbulls chassis isn't a Honda Chassis last I checked so I'm not really getting your convoluted point on that and it's completely Irrelevant to what I said.

Never said it was at the same level, I'd really hope instead of being obtuse you'd read my post in full rather than what seems like a quick glimpse. What I did say is that if the gains are so great, it took quite a bit for them to get there considering again Honda have done no power updates. Also Redbull is the factory Honda team, and Renault is chasing that package so like it or not that is what should be considered. But you know I forgot that all the teams are using spec shared aero so yeah, quite convoluted.

Your talking as if the fact that Renault has more Power then Honda at this moment in time is an Insult to you personally dude, facts are facts.

That makes no sense but okay, I'm talking from a perspective and have already said it in my original post, that even if they have more power the entire package matters. The fact that Honda hasn't done a performance upgrade is significant to this argument. Those are facts. You seem pretty hinged on these power gains by Renault, not sure.

 

[mustafur]

Re-read then, Gasly is night and day to his opponent so why using him as the litmus test to prove the gains of Renault is interesting at best, disingenuous at worst.



Never said it was at the same level, I'd really hope instead of being obtuse you'd read my post in full rather than what seems like a quick glimpse. What I did say is that if the gains are so great, it took quite a bit for them to get there considering again Honda have done no power updates. Also Redbull is the factory Honda team, and Renault is chasing that package so like it or not that is what should be considered. But you know I forgot that all the teams are using spec shared aero so yeah, quite convoluted.



That makes no sense but okay, I'm talking from a perspective and have already said it in my original post, that even if they have more power the entire package matters. The fact that Honda hasn't done a performance upgrade is significant to this argument. Those are facts. You seem pretty hinged on these power gains by Renault, not sure.

What your saying, none of it was what I was talking about, I also don't care if Honda hasn't had an upgrade yet I was purely talking about the Canadian GP.

Can Honda fight back? YES! this is F1 but at the Canadian GP which is what I was talking about, not sure how many times I have to keep saying this the Renault was faster, it doesn't matter if Honda hasn't had a Power Upgrade at that point they are slower and the only reason why I brought it up is because Canada is the first Power sensitive track of the season since Upgrades.

1. I'm not saying Honda can't get faster after a Power upgrade
2. I was Purely focusing on what happened in Canada.
3. I don't care if your Butthurt that Renault was able to do more upgrades in that time then Honda so they where able to get more out of the engine, I was just stating facts of the power unit.
4. Gasly was a good measurement because straight line speed is something outside a drivers control, and with Gasly on the same Strategy as Ricciardo was a Better measurement then Verstappen who wasn't an a similar strategy to Ricciardo(oh he is slow, yeah so what he knows how to push a throttle and the gap was still way too far for him to make on Stroll that's why it never happened).
5. I wasn't talking about Chassis, and no Redbull isn't Honda they might have a Works deal but last I Heard Honda doesn't design Redbulls Aero and Redbull doesn't design Hondas engines, so they are indeed separate, why bring it up when I wasn't talking about it, we both know Redbull is going to be night and day ahead of Renault in the Aero department to the point Renault could have the best engine on the grid and they will still be behind Redbull at nearly every track.

Now at Paul Ricard Both are getting further Upgrades, can the order change again? Most definitely it can, we don't wait for the other manufactures to have their upgrades in F1 to get a judgement. We base on now because now is what happens, getting your upgrades on the car early does matter because it can get you more points if they work.

Paul Ricard will likely have a different outcome, It's a track the Redbull will be ahead of Renault regardless of engine performance, there is a decent straight but there is alot of medium speed corners which will favour the Redbull, we will still get an idea of the engine performance though and it's not that hard to separate that performance from the rest of the car itself.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What your saying, none of it was what I was talking about, I also don't care if Honda hasn't had an upgrade yet I was purely talking about the Canadian GP.

Can Honda fight back? YES! this is F1 but at the Canadian GP which is what I was talking about, not sure how many times I have to keep saying this the Renault was faster, it doesn't matter if Honda hasn't had a Power Upgrade at that point they are slower and the only reason why I brought it up is because Canada is the first Power sensitive track of the season since Upgrades.

1. I'm not saying Honda can't get faster after a Power upgrade
2. I was Purely focusing on what happened in Canada.
3. I don't care if your Butthurt that Renault was able to do more upgrades in that time then Honda so they where able to get more out of the engine, I was just stating facts of the power unit.
4. Gasly was a good measurement because straight line speed is something outside a drivers control, and with Gasly on the same Strategy as Ricciardo was a Better measurement then Verstappen who wasn't an a similar strategy to Ricciardo(oh he is slow, yeah so what he knows how to push a throttle and the gap was still way too far for him to make on Stroll that's why it never happened).
5. I wasn't talking about Chassis, and no Redbull isn't Honda they might have a Works deal but last I Heard Honda doesn't design Redbulls Aero and Redbull doesn't design Hondas engines, so they are indeed separate, why bring it up when I wasn't talking about it, we both know Redbull is going to be night and day ahead of Renault in the Aero department to the point Renault could have the best engine on the grid and they will still be behind Redbull at nearly every track.

Now at Paul Ricard Both are getting further Upgrades, can the order change again? Most definitely it can, we don't wait for the other manufactures to have their upgrades in F1 to get a judgement. We base on now because now is what happens, getting your upgrades on the car early does matter because it can get you more points if they work.

Paul Ricard will likely have a different outcome, It's a track the Redbull will be ahead of Renault regardless of engine performance, there is a decent straight but there is alot of medium speed corners which will favour the Redbull, we will still get an idea of the engine performance though and it's not that hard to separate that performance from the rest of the car itself.

Great I'm talking about the entire season thus far, and if you want to mire yourself on one GP good luck, but I'm not going to and I'm not going to keep convo in that one area. So again, glad you found so hope for the season, but it's probably fleeting and time will soon tell. See you when that happens.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Paddy Lowe has left Williams for good.

 

[TenEightyOne]

McLaren are reportedly to take Mercedes engines from 2021 onwards (BBC). That may leave them with little sight of the good Renault upgrades through 2020. It's also another potential nail in the coffin of Renault's F1 programme - we know that Ghosn was the big fan of F1 on the board while those around him were more skeptical, and the loss of the engine supply deal puts more of a cost burden on Renault/Nissan/Mitsubishi.

 

[Rossell2]

Now official

 

[Jimlaad43]

Toro Rosso are planning to change their name to AlphaTauri next season. It's up to the other teams to allow it.

 

[Rossell2]

Toro Rosso are planning to change their name to AlphaTauri next season. It's up to the other teams to allow it.

Not sure I like that name. Plus having alfa romeo around will make it worse.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There will be six days of testing at the beginning of the 2020 season rather than eight. Sky F1.

 

[Liquid]

Toro Rosso are planning to change their name to AlphaTauri next season. It's up to the other teams to allow it.

Whoever at Red Bull came up with that name should get 3-5 years.

Spoiler

Yes, I know α Tauri is the name of a star but it's still an awful sounding phrase for marketing purposes.

 

[TenEightyOne]

6 out of 10 teams have rejected the current 2021 technical proposals according to an unofficial survey organised by Ferrari. BBC.

 

[mustafur]

Ferrari please don't change.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ferrari please don't change.

I don't know if their veto has a place in the modern sport. I think they lose it after Concorde expires?

 

[TenEightyOne]

...another potential nail in the coffin of Renault's F1 programme - we know that Ghosn was the big fan of F1 on the board while those around him were more skeptical...

The interim CEO of the group is conducting a "deep review" of all Renault programmes. That includes their F1 team. I've been saying for some time in various parts of this forum that I think the Renault F1 programme may be in danger, if it makes it through this review then one can reasonably assume that they're in F1 for a long time. If not... well.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The interim CEO of the group is conducting a "deep review" of all Renault programmes. That includes their F1 team. I've been saying for some time in various parts of this forum that I think the Renault F1 programme may be in danger, if it makes it through this review then one can reasonably assume that they're in F1 for a long time. If not... well.

I mean you've been saying it for quite some time, so on a long enough time line...