2019 Formula 1 Gran Premio Heineken d'ItaliaFormula 1

[ScottPuss20]

On average Ferrari have made the sensible choice to prioritize the car who looked in better shape to get a better result in hindsight. Other than Australia where it was useless, I believe they were fair for both. I'm not deluding myself, Seb isn't in his best seasons. I admit, he's aging after all. But to say that Leclerc has outperformed him massively across the whole season is too much.

And Leclerc is not a rookie, he made around 35 starts in two seasons, that's about where Hamilton won his first championship. Don't overplay his results.

Leclerc has outperformed him. The results speak for themselves... Sebastian has lost his way and just isn't performing like a number one driver. He should be winning instead of Leclerc but he doesn't have the pace.

 

[PzR Slim]

Leclerc has outperformed him. The results speak for themselves... Sebastian has lost his way and just isn't performing like a number one driver. He should be winning instead of Leclerc but he doesn't have the pace.

It's not just being off the pace. The mistakes are more telling, he's making school boy errors. Spinning on his own when no one is around him is just bizarre for a 4 x WDC. And it's happened regularly over the past couple of seasons. I've got no idea what is wrong with him but I can't see any top team taking him unless he has a faultless end to the season and starts to beat LeClerc.

 

[baldgye]

I can't see any top team taking him unless he has a faultless end to the season and starts to beat LeClerc.

I don't see Ferrari dropping him either.

 

[Touring Mars]

The trouble for Vettel is that he's now in a similar situation as last season where he is finding himself having to push harder and is subsequently making more mistakes, which in turn means he has to push even harder etc. etc. - although he is undoubtedly still a great driver, he is only likely to face increasing pressure and that's probably not going to be a good thing for him.

It's still possible (if less likely) that Vettel can reverse the current trend and re-assert himself as the lead driver in the team, though ironically, Ferrari probably don't want to see such a reversal, not least because it leaves them open to the 'Hamilton/Alonso' dilemma (where Raikkonen was the ultimate winner in that fight). I reckon if Leclerc can outperform Vettel in the next race or two, then it should be a no-brainer to prioritise him for the remainder of the season.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The trouble for Vettel is that he's now in a similar situation as last season where he is finding himself having to push harder and is subsequently making more mistakes, which in turn means he has to push even harder etc. etc. - although he is undoubtedly still a great driver, he is only likely to face increasing pressure and that's probably not going to be a good thing for him.

It's still possible (if less likely) that Vettel can reverse the current trend and re-assert himself as the lead driver in the team, though ironically, Ferrari probably don't want to see such a reversal, not least because it leaves them open to the 'Hamilton/Alonso' dilemma (where Raikkonen was the ultimate winner in that fight). I reckon if Leclerc can outperform Vettel in the next race or two, then it should be a no-brainer to prioritise him for the remainder of the season.

And, for the first time, I really feel like the idea of Vettel retiring or taking a sabbatical is a real possibility. Or maybe there's more than just Bull (ha, haha) in some of the other rumours.

It doesn't seem like he and Ferrari really gelled - there was a telling comment from a Ferrari senior yesterday who said the "Charles doesn't overthink things". That echoes comments by other seniors in recent years, maybe Ferrari just isn't right for Vettel regardless of how much he and they want it to be?

 

[Dotini]

Supposedly it's easier to tell a driver to slow down than it is to tell him to go quicker. Telling Vettel to aim for a safe 4th or 5th place might be a wise plan for the team. If he doesn't like that or still screws up, then just let him go.

 

[baldgye]

It doesn't seem like he and Ferrari really gelled - there was a telling comment from a Ferrari senior yesterday who said the "Charles doesn't overthink things". That echoes comments by other seniors in recent years, maybe Ferrari just isn't right for Vettel regardless of how much he and they want it to be?

I don’t know, I think that Ferrari and fell out of love with Seb in 2016/17. I think it would be fair to say that at the very least, someone equal in ability to Lewis or Schumacher would have taken the title to the very end.

It also looks like in the aftermath of those seasons and a new leader, Ferrari decided to change up. The new package isn’t to Vettel’s liking and he’s expressed that many times, yet Charles is making the most of it. Vettel had the chance to win at Monza, the best chance he’s had in 10 years and he threw it away.

I don’t think he’ll go anywhere to be honest. He’s still very fast and very good but he either has to adapt or accept second fiddle.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Vettel will retire at the end if this season if he's got any sense at all.

 

[marco89IT]

Who’s the dude in the white T-shirt at Ferrari? He’s having a field day with all this

Lapo Elkann, grandson of Fiat chief Gianni Agnelli. Let's say he might easily be the inspiration for "The Hangover" film series, all 3 of them. Except he doesn't need wedding parties to... have fun.
"Lapo Elkann was arrested and then released by New York police after allegedly faking his own kidnapping in an attempt to get $10,000 from his family, American media reported on Tuesday, citing police sources. The Agnelli family heir reportedly faked the kidnapping after running out of cash during a two-day binge of drugs and alcohol with a transgender escort. In 2005 Elkann was taken to hospital due to an overdose, after reportedly taking a potentially lethal cocktail of heroin, cocaine and alcohol at the Turin home of a transvestite.". Just a couple of highlights from a long list of "adventures" he's had.




About Vettel, he's definitely a driver which needs a certain kind of environment around him in the team to give his best. Ferrari at the moment isn't that environment. Last example is Saturday, the Q3 mess might have been way bigger than we thought inside the Ferrari garage. Vettel felt like he had a realistic shot at pole position since he was just a tenth and a half behind Leclerc without having the slipstream while giving his to Charles, as also pointed out by Binotto: "Sebastian's lap was the most impressive today". The last attempt should've been Leclerc's time to give the tow to Vettel, but it seems he made no effort to do that, again admitted by Binotto after the race: "Charles is forgiven for today". Vettel's "Thank you, thank you" on the team radio seemed to be really bitter.

During the first half of the year Ferrari looked like amateurs at times, in various areas. They could've been in 3rd place in the constructors if Gasly wasn't having a terrible season. Ferrari has had something like 4 different team principals in the last 5 years, and Arrivabene has been sacked after having a way better campaign than the current one.
I guess Vettel wants to wait and see in what direction the team is going before making big decisions. He probably knows more than anybody else that he's not going to see the same faces around him next year, if he stays.

 

[Snaeper]

And the Rich Energy - Haas saga comes to a close.

 

[Slapped]

And the Rich Energy - Haas saga comes to a close.

I do love the word "Amicably", especially when used in a business sense.

 

[Touring Mars]

The Agnelli family heir reportedly faked the kidnapping after running out of cash during a two-day binge of drugs and alcohol with a transgender escort.

At least it wasn't a Ford Escort.

 

[Riptide]

Vettel will retire at the end if this season if he's got any sense at all.

I very much doubt that. He's not a 4-time F1 world champion for nothing. Yes, Vettel is going through a tough patch, but so did many before him and returned with glory. It's tough to stay motivated when all you live for is to win, but knows the car you're driving is just not there to do it for the last three or four years. As a new kid in town Le Clerk has plenty to motivate himself and I'm real glad for his sake, but we all know SPA and Monza is Ferrari hunting ground, so even though Leclerc had to work hard, it's still no big surprise. F1 already lost one GREAT in Alonso who made a few bad choices himself, but ultimately left for greener grass where he could find a winning streak. I sure hope Vettel will not be another.

 

[TheCracker]

I think Vettel, more so than any other multiple world champions i can think of, is prone to making mistakes when under pressure. Being slower than your young team mate in a Ferrari, at Monza when you're already having an indifferent season is certainly grounds to be feeling pressure. Top drivers often show signs of being in a 'bad place' emotionally with their recent run of poor results but Vettel appears to exhibit this behaviour more frequently than most.

 

[FutureF1]

Does anyone know, is this the first Ferrari win in Monza on Italian made tires (Pirelli)?

 

[Jimlaad43]

Does anyone know, is this the first Ferrari win in Monza on Italian made tires (Pirelli)?

Ascari's victories in 1951 and 1952 were both on Pirelli tyres too

 

[GroupB]

I think Vettel, more so than any other multiple world champions i can think of, is prone to making mistakes when under pressure.

During the glory days, his preferred MO was always to sprint away at the start and never be bothered again. I still remember him clumsily T-boning Webber in 2010 when they actually had to pass each other on track.

 

[Whodoyouthink]

While unlikely, it is possible Vettel could face a 1 race ban over the next 3 races if his driving accumulates more penalty points on his license.



He's at 9/12 penalty points. They do reset after a 12 month period, so in this case it will reset at Suzuka. I am very surprised by how this particular season has gone for him. But I suppose there are parallels to how Raikkonen must have felt. Keeps falling short of being fantastic, even though the opportunities are there to shine.

Does anyone know, is this the first Ferrari win in Monza on Italian made tires (Pirelli)?

Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but it was the first Ferrari Italian GP win since 2010 (Alonso was winner).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but it was the first Ferrari Italian GP win since 2010 (Alonso was winner).

And the last three Ferrari wins at Monza have been by a driver in their first year with the team.

 

[Jimlaad43]

And the last three Ferrari wins at Monza have been by a driver in their first year with the team.

Schumacher won in 2006, that was the one before Alonso. Schumacher and Barrichello both won after their first year too.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Schumacher won in 2006, that was the one before Alonso. Schumacher and Barrichello both won after their first year too.

I misread that stat wherever it was I saw it... perhaps it was more to do with the Ferrari/Monza winners all doing it in their first year with the team before subsequent Ferrari/Monza wins? I forget now

 

[PeterJB]

During the glory days, his preferred MO was always to sprint away at the start and never be bothered again. I still remember him clumsily T-boning Webber in 2010 when they actually had to pass each other on track.

I always find it interesting how much Vettel gets critiqued for his driving during the Red Bull years when at the time it was Hamilton crashing into other drivers every other race. They're having each other's careers in reverse. Hamilton's Mercedes driving is no different from Vettel's Red Bull except the cars are even faster.

 

[Liquid]

I always find it interesting how much Vettel gets critiqued for his driving during the Red Bull years when at the time it was Hamilton crashing into other drivers every other race. They're having each other's careers in reverse. Hamilton's Mercedes driving is no different from Vettel's Red Bull except the cars are even faster.

As true as that is, and I find that an interesting supposition, Hamilton can race through the pack in a way that Vettel cannot.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Well Vettel had a car that did a lot of the driving for him in terms of aero and diffuser effects. That stuff is gone and they have to handle the car more than ever now. Most people say Vettel can't do what Hamilton can when the going gets tough cuz he has less experience wringing the most out of the car

 

[Jimlaad43]

I always find it interesting how much Vettel gets critiqued for his driving during the Red Bull years when at the time it was Hamilton crashing into other drivers every other race. They're having each other's careers in reverse. Hamilton's Mercedes driving is no different from Vettel's Red Bull except the cars are even faster.

However, Hamilton got that career path in the correct order. Make mistakes and learn from them to become the complete and soul-crushingly fast driver without hitting everyone. Vettel got it wrong in that he's shown he can be a soul-crushingly fast driver but has degenerated into what we see today, a shadow of his former self.

 

[PeterJB]

Well Vettel had a car that did a lot of the driving for him in terms of aero and diffuser effects. That stuff is gone and they have to handle the car more than ever now. Most people say Vettel can't do what Hamilton can when the going gets tough cuz he has less experience wringing the most out of the car

To me the cars look easier to drive now than during the V8 ones. Tyre wear is far better than it was around 2012-13 and it's clear that downforce is much higher what with lap records being broken at almost every race. Race craft is much cleaner too in that we see relatively few collisions between drivers during races as well, that could be the cars being easier to control or the current roster are just better than what we had 7-8 years ago.

 

[Liquid]

However, Hamilton got that career path in the correct order. Make mistakes and learn from them to become the complete and soul-crushingly fast driver without hitting everyone.

How very Mika Häkkinen of Hamilton to suffer through a few years of, on occasion, questionable driving before smoothing it out.

Vettel got it wrong in that he's shown he can be a soul-crushingly fast driver but has degenerated into what we see today, a shadow of his former self.

How very Jacques Villeneuve of Vettel for his career to hit the ground running and then stall as you become more error prone.

---

Of course there are other factors in each comparison (Vettel's good patch lasted a lot longer than Villeneuve's) but I think the point has been articulated.

 

[Daniel]

At least it wasn't a Ford Escort.

I'd say he had more of a Fiesta.

 

[niky]

I always find it interesting how much Vettel gets critiqued for his driving during the Red Bull years when at the time it was Hamilton crashing into other drivers every other race. They're having each other's careers in reverse. Hamilton's Mercedes driving is no different from Vettel's Red Bull except the cars are even faster.

I think most of the hate was for the smug attitude... but hell, I appreciated the fact that he was always so enthusiastic about winning. He was the 'Award-show Taylor Swift' of F1 drivers.

I think some of the issues in his wheel-to-wheel battles in those days were due to the cars. The Red Bulls were so optimized aerodynamically that they were visibly unstable pulling out of another car's wake. I thought Seb managed to show some wheel-to-wheel skills in his last season at Red Bull, though the results don't show it. He simply couldn't adapt to the brake by wire systems right away and he had trouble managing his tires over race distance (something Ricciardo had well in hand over him). This seems to be what's happening with this year's Ferrari, as well. Vettel may be an incredibly quick driver, but it seems like he isn't a very flexible one.

Hamilton was, and is, a much better driver. He kept getting into crashes for being over-eager or over-aggressive, he bent a lot of rules. He was an absolute horse's behind at times. And he did get a lot of hate then. But once McLaren started slipping backwards among the top tier teams, I think people came to appreciate his abilities more, in extracting performance out of a car that might not be optimum. And I guess he learned a lot more from Button than just the 'Zen of Racing', given how well he can manage the tires nowadays.

Hamilton probably has another three or four years at the sharp end. Vettel should, too, if he could only get out of his head and focus.

 

[Veinz]

Vettel needs to see a sports psychologist or something. I predicted this spin last week on another forum so I was not surprised to see it happen it all.