2020/21 Premier League & General Football Discussion

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Man United beat Newcastle 4-1, started shockingly with a Luke Shaw own goal just two minutes in but we soon found our groove, Harry Maguire answered his critics with a badly needed goal for him to equalise and it was 1-1 at the break, United were (predictably) given a penalty which Bruno actually missed but he scored to make it 1-2 at bit later and the Wan Bissaka and Rashford with two late goals to seal a valuable win.

I heard it was a good performance but I didn't watch it, I didn't pay for it on PPV and I tried to find a decent stream but once I found out that we were 1-0 down I gave up! :lol:
 
I trust that at least a few people have been brushing up on their Arabic, Spanish and Russian instead of paying the £15 a match.
 
I watched all the games, the benefit of a local lockdown, :eek: :rolleyes: :lol: though some watched more closely than others. ;)

If anyone says LiVARpool get all the luck, point them towards this game. A shocking collision by Pickford on van Dijk, totally unpunished. :mad:VAR looking at offside, and then seemingly not looking at the Pickford and van Dijk coming together. Wtf is VAR if not to get decisions like this right. I hope van Dijk gets well as soon as possible, but it didn't look good the way his knee overextended. Looked like Thiago got injured as well from the tackle by Richarlison which got him sent off. Fingers crossed not as serious as van Dijk. Thiago is much better than I thought he would be though, and that is after 1.5 games. :)

The offside for the ruled out goal made no sense to anyone who saw it. They can put up all the lines they want on the screen, but Mane's arm is not able to score a goal, but the Everton defenders foot could. Wasn't VAR decisions supposed to correct clear mistakes! That is obviously not working. :banghead: :rolleyes:

Overall though I was happy with Liverpool's response after the Villa result. :)

Chel$ki and Southampton were pretty even. Chel$ki's attack's starting to click, it is the defence and keeper they need to sort out. Werner started scoring, and it may the first few of many.

Man Cit€h and Arsenal was also pretty even. Not sure either team were on top form. Btw, I think Maguire has a bit more to do to silence his critics beyond scoring the odd goal. He is the most expensive defender after all. ;) :lol:

Newcastle were under pressure for a lot of the game against Utd, but kept in the game until four mins before full time. After the missed penalty, Fernandez made up for it by putting Utd in the lead with a great goal, and the goals after it made the score and difference look more one sided than it probably was, but the right team won.
 
I trust that at least a few people have been brushing up on their Arabic, Spanish and Russian instead of paying the £15 a match.
;)
It would be interesting to see how many paid the £15. Not sure they will give out the numbers though.
 
Liverpool have asked the Premier League to investigate the application of VAR in the two controversial decisions during the matches, they are also waiting on scan results for both Van Dijk and Thiago.

Sergio Aguero will perhaps escape punishment for putting his hand on the shoulder of female assistant ref Sian Massey-Ellis during the City-Arsenal game, it may seem like nothing but putting your hands on an official is an offense anyway and Aguero doing it to a female official was patronising and awkward.
 
Sergio Aguero will perhaps escape punishment for putting his hand on the shoulder of female assistant ref Sian Massey-Ellis during the City-Arsenal game, it may seem like nothing but putting your hands on an official is an offense anyway and Aguero doing it to a female official was patronising and awkward.
When I was watching that I was like, 'ooh, that's not right'. I don't think he would have done that if she wasn't a women, or at least not that way. Not sure whether anything should be done to him, but if it is an offence, then whatever the penalty is.
 
Sheffield United 1-1 Fulham
Crystal Palace 1-1 Brighton
Tottenham 3-3 West Ham

Ademola Lookman with scored a great solo goal for Fulham and Sheffield United got the equaliser late on when Billy Sharp converted a penalty, Zaha put Palace ahead via the penalty spot and Alexis MacAllister got a late 90 minute equaliser for Brighton.

Spurs v West Ham just finished and what a game! Spurs went 2-0 up after just 8 minutes from Kane and Son and both goals were brilliant (Kane and Son assisted each other!) Kane got his second a few minutes later after Reguilon put in a great cross and Spurs were 3-0 up and cruising at the break, Bale came on on 70 minutes and Spurs then conceded twice almost immediately! Balbuena and a Sanchez own goal in three minutes gave west Ham a chance with five minutes of regular time left...and then came the equaliser, with virtually the last kick of the game Manuel Lanzini hit a sensational strike from outside the box and went in off the cross bar, goal of the season contender!

Liverpool have released some news regarding Virgil Van Dijk and its the worst news possible for them, he will need surgery on knee ligament damage he suffered yesterday, no time-scale has been given on his return but knee ligament injuries are some of the worst injuries Footballers can get, likely he will miss 6-8 months.
 
Great end to the Spurs V West Ham game, if you are not a Spurs fan. :eek: ;) :lol:

Sad news about van Dijk, but not surprising. May be a couple of days before they put a time frame on a recovery time. Probably season over for him with this shortened season. Fingers crossed no permanent long term damage for him.

No news of Thiago yet afaik. That could have potentially been the same as van Dijk it was so bad a tackle. :irked:
 
If anyone says LiVARpool get all the luck, point them towards this game. A shocking collision by Pickford on van Dijk, totally unpunished. :mad:VAR looking at offside, and then seemingly not looking at the Pickford and van Dijk coming together. Wtf is VAR if not to get decisions like this right. I hope van Dijk gets well as soon as possible, but it didn't look good the way his knee overextended. Looked like Thiago got injured as well from the tackle by Richarlison which got him sent off. Fingers crossed not as serious as van Dijk. Thiago is much better than I thought he would be though, and that is after 1.5 games. :)

The offside for the ruled out goal made no sense to anyone who saw it. They can put up all the lines they want on the screen, but Mane's arm is not able to score a goal, but the Everton defenders foot could. Wasn't VAR decisions supposed to correct clear mistakes! That is obviously not working. :banghead: :rolleyes:
Yeah I saw the Liverpool game too, very odd decisions there. I know that when Pickford took out Van Dijk, the game rightly had to be pulled back for the offisde, but AFAIK there was no reason Pickfords challenge couldn't have been looked at independantly of pulling the game back. It probably wasn't deliberate, but it was very rash and to not even get a yellow.

It reminded me of the match when Luke Shaw had his leg broken, the player that fould him didn't get punished at all and went on to score the winner and get MotM. I was livid. Obviousely, I wasn't quite as livid about this with it not being a team I support, though I wish Van Dijk well, but it was very odd to see Pickford get nothing.

The only thing I can assume with the offisde goal at the end is it was either wrong (which a lot likely are, more on that in a mo), or the VAR officials have a screenshot that is different to the one that everyone saw (which still doesn't categorically mean it wasn't wrong).

I take issue with the way the way VAR checks offsides anyway, a point I have discussed many times albeit not on here. The cameras they use only track at 50fps. A footballer running at full pelt can cover upwards of 18cm distance in between frames. So you can imagine the ball can travel much further than that if hit hard in between frames.

The officials check on the frams after is is clear the ball has been kicked, therefore taking the movement between frames into a account, most of the close calls, were likely onside at the actual moment the ball was kicked.

Historically the rules always favoured the attacking team when in doubt (or at least were suposed to in order to keep within the spirit of the game). Therefore to continue in the same spirit, IMO they should find the frame where it is clear the ball has been kicked and then go back to the frame before and check then. If it's not certain that a player is definitely offide in the frame where it's clear the ball has been kicked they shouldn't be calling offside based on it. However if a player is offside the frame prior then it's undisputable.
 
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Yeah I saw the Liverpool game too, very odd decisions there. I know that when Pickford took out Van Dijk, the game rightly had to be pulled back for the offisde, but AFAIK there was no reason Pickfords challenge couldn't have been looked at independantly of pulling the game back. It probably wasn't deliberate, but it was very rash and to not even get a yellow.

It reminded me of the match when Luke Shaw had his leg broken, the player that fould him didn't get punished at all and went on to score the winner and get MotM. I was livid. Obviousely, I wasn't quite as livid about this with it not being a team I support, though I wish Van Dijk well, but it was very odd to see Pickford get nothing.

The only thing I can assume with the offisde goal at the end is it was either wrong (which a lot likely are, more on that in a mo), or the VAR officials have a screenshot that is different to the one that everyone saw (which still doesn't categorically mean it wasn't wrong).

The 'pundits' I have seen today about the Pickford/van Dijk incident pretty much all agree that Pickford should have been sent off. Indeed, Dunk did a similar thing today for Brighton in the area, though that should make no difference for such a tackle, and though not jumping as far into the player as Pickford, he was sent off. :confused: :rolleyes:

On Sky there was bemusement that not only the Referee on the field thought that there was nothing wrong with the Pickford tackle, but also the Ref's looking at it from multiple angles for VAR thought there was nothing wrong with the tackle. :eek: If Ref's don't see a tackle like that as endangering an opponent, then it doesn't matter how many cameras there are looking at an incident.

I take issue with the way the way VAR checks offsides anyway, a point I have discussed many times albeit not on here. The cameras they use only track at 50fps. A footballer running at full pelt can cover upwards of 18cm distance in between frames. So you can imagine the ball can travel much further than that if hit hard in between frames.

The officials check on the frams after is is clear the ball has been kicked, therefore taking the movement between frames into a account, most of the close calls, were likely onside at the actual moment the ball was kicked.

Historically the rules always favoured the attacking team when in doubt (or at least were suposed to in order to keep within the spirit of the game). Therefore to continue in the same spirit, IMO they should find the frame where it is clear the ball has been kicked and then go back to the frame before and check then. If it's not certain that a player is definitely offide in the frame where it's clear the ball has been kicked they shouldn't be calling offside based on it. However if a player is offside the frame prior then it's undisputable.
One would hope that they were filming at higher than 50fps but who knows! They have the money to film at higher fps.

An issue I have is what they show viewers for an offside is very low resolution and from a wide angle. Zoom in on the two players involved and show what they have measured, because what they are showing to viewers are not clear. And if it is not clear, the benefit of doubt goes to the attacker.

As it is VAR is taking some excitement out of the game. The most exciting part of the game is a goal, but we are starting to get to a point where that excitement has to be tempered 'just in case'. No way did I think Henderson's goal was not legitimate at the time, but even now I'm not 100% sure from what they have shown. It is alright saying they are sure, but if they can't show that definitively, then scepticism will carry on.
 
Going frame by frame and increasing the fps will only make it worse. If it's not obvious in real time, it shouldn't be given as offside.
 
According to the laws of the game, a tackle made on a player who is offside cannot be penalised; the offside offence counts first and must take primacy.

"So what if he just punches him in the face?"

That's violent conduct, not a foul tackle. A very different offence with a very different remit and scope for punishment.

None of this changes the fact that it absolutely was an awfully unintelligent tackle by supposedly England's most senior goalkeeper but as best as I can work out, the rules were adhered to.

Going frame by frame and increasing the fps will only make it worse. If it's not obvious in real time, it shouldn't be given as offside.

A quantum offside!



I totally get what you mean though.
 
When it comes to offside, you have to draw the line somewhere - literally. If you start to give leeway, it'll creep up and then the people on the other side of the decision will begin to argue it the other way. Offside is the only bit of VAR that is fact not opinion, so why that's the bit being argued I'll never know.

Now with the Pickford decision, I expect a player like Salah, Grealish, Zaha or Son to be wiped out by a defender who sees the offside flag go up just because it's after the first offense. That's a silly rule that wasnt implemented right.
 
When it comes to offside, you have to draw the line somewhere - literally. If you start to give leeway, it'll creep up and then the people on the other side of the decision will begin to argue it the other way.

I quite agree; if you give 1cm leeway, what about when it's 1.1cm? Why not 1.5cm? And then if it's 1.75cm offside, why isn't the leeway 2cm? Or 50cm?

I know the "interfering with play" rule was about 15 years ago but the last fundamental change to offside was back in the 1920s. Prior to that, there had to be three opposition players between the attacking team and goal, as opposed to the two it's had to be since then. Imagine needing two defenders (plus a goalie 99% of the time) between you and the goal for forward passes to count.

And I'm not saying that reverting to that is the answer but just that we're working with a rule that hasn't been critically analysed, changed or revised in nearly a century. A century. I think football's biggest pressing issue with laws of the game is offside. The current rules are 100 years old and have not kept up with modern tactical play and timed, off-the-shoulder forward running.

tl;dr - change the rules, not the enforcement of the rules
 
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According to the laws of the game, a tackle made on a player who is offside cannot be penalised; the offside offence counts first and must take primacy.

"So what if he just punches him in the face?"

That's violent conduct, not a foul tackle. A very different offence with a very different remit and scope for punishment.

A former Premier League Referee has his say. @5:16

 
According to the laws of the game, a tackle made on a player who is offside cannot be penalised; the offside offence counts first and must take primacy.

Could this "let the play go all the way through THEN blow the whistle for offsides" rule change for this year have anything to do with it? If you went back to blowing the whistle and raising the flag for offside as soon as it happened, would you eliminate or greatly reduce the incidence of challenges that could injure players?
 
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In other news, Aguero has got away with no further action after grabbing a match officials neck/shoulder. Should have been an automatic booking in the game, somehow it wasn't. I understand if it's not seen as a red card they can't take action, but it really send the wrong message.

Could this "let the play go all the way through THEN blow the whistle for offsides" rule change for this year have anything to do with it? If you went back to blowing the whistle and raising the flag for offside as soon as it happened, would you eliminate or greatly reduce the incidence of challenges that could injure players?
Had it been like that Pickford may not have ended up clattering Van Dijk in the first place (assuming the flag had gone up).
 
West Ham have become the first Premier League team in history to avoid defeat in a game having trailed by three or more goals as late as the 81st minute. Insane stat!

Merseyside Police are investigating offensive tweets aimed at Jordan Pickford and Richarlison following the derby on Saturday.

West Brom v Burnley just started and Leeds v Wolves on the MNF.
 
Merseyside Police are investigating offensive tweets aimed at Jordan Pickford and Richarlison following the derby on Saturday.
Sadly in this day and age, not unexpected. :( If anyone has crossed a line and done anything illegal track them down and prosecute. Only way to try and stem the tide of such stuff.

Could this "let the play go all the way through THEN blow the whistle for offsides" rule change for this year have anything to do with it? If you went back to blowing the whistle and raising the flag for offside as soon as it happened, would you eliminate or greatly reduce the incidence of challenges that could injure players?
The problem with blowing the whistle and the checking for offside is that play stops at the whistle, and potential goal opportunities could be lost.

What they should do, imho, is stop play if it is obvious to the Assistant Referee that it is clearly offside to reduce the chances of injury. The problem then is back to judgement on the field, and mistakes have been made in the past. :rolleyes: If VAR are monitoring any offside as the should be, then as soon as they are sure there was an offside, if play is still active, get the Ref to stop play to stop and chance of injury.
 
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The problem with blowing the whistle and the checking for offside is that play stops at the whistle, and potential goal opportunities could be lost.

What they should do, imho, is stop play if it is obvious to the Assistant Referee that it is clearly offside to reduce the chances of injury. The problem then is back to judgement on the field, and mistakes have been made in the past. :rolleyes: If VAR are monitoring any offside as the should be, then as soon as they are sure there was an offside, if play is still active, get the Ref to stop play to stop and chance of injury.

Would you rather lose goal opportunities or players? I think I would rather lose the occasional goal opportunity than to risk losing one of my most important players.

If the offsides takes precedent, what would stop a defender (if he were certain that it was offsides) from using his hands to stop a shot? Afterall the offsides is the main call. Now that's taking it to an absurd level and if the play wasn't offsides that player would probably never live it down.

I don't think VAR could make snap offside decisions on live play could they? They have to freeze frame everything and put their grid overlays on it.
 
Would you rather lose goal opportunities or players? I think I would rather lose the occasional goal opportunity than to risk losing one of my most important players.

If the offsides takes precedent, what would stop a defender (if he were certain that it was offsides) from using his hands to stop a shot? Afterall the offsides is the main call. Now that's taking it to an absurd level and if the play wasn't offsides that player would probably never live it down.

I don't think VAR could make snap offside decisions on live play could they? They have to freeze frame everything and put their grid overlays on it.
If it's clearly offside first then that wouldn't bother me as the shot doesn't count. It's the incidents where players can get injured from a foul that needs thought. If a goalkeeper can take an opposition player out of the game without reprecussions because it all happened after an offside then that's a broken rule.

Of course, not all injuries are the result of reckless tackles or voilent conduct, but they need to at allow for recklessness after the event to be dealt with.
 
Would you rather lose goal opportunities or players? I think I would rather lose the occasional goal opportunity than to risk losing one of my most important players.

If the offsides takes precedent, what would stop a defender (if he were certain that it was offsides) from using his hands to stop a shot? Afterall the offsides is the main call. Now that's taking it to an absurd level and if the play wasn't offsides that player would probably never live it down.

I don't think VAR could make snap offside decisions on live play could they? They have to freeze frame everything and put their grid overlays on it.
I'd always favour player safety, and I don't think VAR for offsides should be used when the margins can be so tiny, and though they say it is a binary thing, they are or they are not, from the images they show to the public, it can be anything but clear. If they are seeing something they are not showing the public, then show us it, because if I can't tell from the 'evidence' you are showing, then it is not a clear mistake.

Add the effect it is having on the game as a whole, the delayed reaction or suspicion of celebrating goals, the deflation when goals are ruled out, and it is taking some of the enjoyment out of football for me. But, high profiles mistakes, and the availability of technology, has got us to this point, and hopefully it will improve over time, because I don't think it is going away. They will play on and reply on the technology as a safety net for the decision, not necessarily the safety of the players.

As an aside, I know some countries around the world have had problems with corruption over the years, but in the UK I never had the feeling that that was ever a problem. What the Referee said was what he believed to be correct for what he saw, or didn't see. Now with VAR, I can see what they are taking time to make decisions on, and they are sometimes coming to the wrong decision, imho of course, ;) so my confidence in the officiating is going down the more VAR make mistakes. And especially when there is no one to admit to, or answer to the mistakes.

The Pickford/van Dijk incident as an example. Everyone is astonished that Pickford receives no punishment. They first showed the offside decision and that was it. Then they were like, hold on, what about that tackle? They didn't look at it. What! Then there is confusion about what they are allowed to look at, and when. Then nothing. Oh, hold on Pickford may face retrospective punishment, oh he isn't. Ffs. :rolleyes: :banghead: At no point has anyone official faced a camera, or made a statement afaik, why that incident had not been judged, as far as most media, ex pro's and a lot of fans, see as a huge mistake at the time during the game.

For me football shouldn't be a radically different game to what that can be played in the park from the highest level. Now match officials change that obviously in organised leagues, but the game shouldn't be different between different divisions. If VAR is not in effect in Division 2, then it shouldn't be in effect in the top league, because how the games are officiated will be affected by the technology, and officiated in different ways. Also, because of the availability of the tech means different games in cup competitions (FA Cup, League Cup for example) can be officiated differently, and that is not right imho. In a competition the rules should be the same for every team in every game. Phew, got that off my chest. :lol:

Oh, and I meant to say, that if situation can be instantly seen to be offside, which could be seen for obvious mistakes in a second or so, rewind the video, flip between the different views, and if clear, then that should stop the continuing procession of play by the Referee, rather than waiting for a break in play 5-20+ plus seconds later. If it is not obvious then it stays the way it is now.
 
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West Brom 0-0 Burnley
Leeds 0-1 Wolves

West Brom and Burnley play out the first 0-0 of the season...and it was on Box Office, ZZZZzzzzzzzzz.

Raul Jimenez deflected shot off Leeds Kalvin Philips in the second half separated the two sides, good close game between the two.
 
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