21,500 More US Troops Headed to Iraq

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Fair enough - I'm not putting all the blame on George Bush, or even on his Republican administration - but there is certainly a lobby or committee or two out there - we'd probably call them quangos here in the UK (Quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisations*) - who are exerting their influence over him, and unfortunately, Bush gives the impression of being both easily led and not being his own man - an unfortunate combo for a president...

*try saying (or typing) that after 7 beers ;)
 
I'm wondering if some of this is perhaps over the last year the administration has actually tried to avoid troop commitment as a result of pressure from the public and press, now having to say that, no we need this commitment to do the job that needs to be done.

OTOH, we can't go over there as cops, trying to keep order. If we're there to root out the bad guys, then by God, root them out.

If we're just picking sides in a civil war, we don't belong. I don't think that's the case, but we can't be all cushy about being warriors, either.


(As a complete aside, I want to retract part of my previous post in this thread. My statement about how "we don't conquer" might be contended by any of the various Souix, Apache, Navajo, Comanche, Cherokee, Creek, and other peoples native to the continent we, um, conquered.)
 
(As a complete aside, I want to retract part of my previous post in this thread. My statement about how "we don't conquer" might be contended by any of the various Souix, Apache, Navajo, Comanche, Cherokee, Creek, and other peoples native to the continent we, um, conquered.)

It's ok, that stuff doesn't count.
 
Personally, the push-pull of American policy isn't really doing any good. Either we commit more to Iraq, or we don't.

It's almost impossible to actually say what will work, now, but playing to maintain status quo (like we did in Vietnam) is a good way to get soldiers killed without actually accomplishing much. The best defense is a good offense. Mop up the insurgents where you can, then pull out.

Sadly, things most likely will go downhill after that. You have the same warlords and radicals in power or behind the seats of power as you have elsewhere in the Middle East. A "free" election doesn't change that factor, much... and a decade down the line, Iraq will either shape up or they'll descend into despotism or anarchism.

But the US owes them the chance to make that choice. Pulling out at this point will set that period back twenty or thirty more years, like it did in Vietnam. At least Vietnam is getting back onto its feet now, but the costs were terribly high.

Again, I'm about as anti-Bush as they get, but seeing the Republican party change hats behind him and take a step back from the flak over Iraq is reprehensible... it's now, when it's actually more important to be firm on this, that they have to close ranks.

I just hope that the US isn't still fighting a standing action in Iraq by 2009. A prolonged occupation will just fuel anti-US sentiment. An offensive might do the same, but only for a very short period of time.
 
The simple answer is that we are indeed without any reasonable ones. We as Americans, and generally citizens of the democratic and "free" Western Nations are being placed into a situation where we are damned if we do not fix Iraq, but also damned if we do not. What it comes down to is a commitment of troops based upon nations that are willing to stay and fight, as those that have the will to improve the Middle East and thereby themselves stand the best chance at fighting-off militant Islam.

Backing out of Iraq now is indeed probably the worst possible thing that America and our Allies could do at the moment. What would basically amount to the destabilization of an entire region could embolden violence between other facets of Islam, particularly the Sunni/Shia issues that could place Iran and part of Iraq against the rest of the Middle East.

However, Democrats and Liberals continue to state over and over again with their 12-year-old "give up now" attitude that we must pull out. The ignorance on their behalf is unacceptable, particularly when they were calling for troop increases months ago, but now it is certainly not good enough. But where indeed is their plan for Iraq? How are they going to handle the situation any better? Democratic leaders in Washington continue to advocate the removal of US troops all while moving more responsibilities to the Iraqis... But I have to ask, is this not a case of "pot called the kettle black?" Bush and his boys have been moving power to the Iraqis, but obviously that wasn't working... So who is right here?

Nobody. Thats right, absolutely nobody is right about Iraq. But when we go about complaining that the plan "probably won't work" despite the fact that the troops aren't even in Iraq to begin with, how can we be so certain that things won't come out good in the end? Will the Democrats go foot-in-mouth? Will Republicans suck it up and formulate a last-ditch effort to fix Iraq before pulling out?

What it comes down to in my opinion is that we as America need to show who is the strong-hand worldwide. The world (that being countries that aren't America and it's allies) doesn't have the stomach for conflict no matter how gravely in danger they may be from militant Islam. Facing these terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters/maryters etc in Iraq means that we do not have to face them on our turf, and at least for our allies, on their turf as well.

Iraq can take the Middle-East in two distinct directions:

- Success in Iraq (stable government, economy, safety among the people) can create a foothold for Democracy in the Middle East, giving hope to its neighbors that one day they too can reap the benefits of democracy and the ideals that it represents in the course of individual freedom(s), the ability for a nation to grow economically and socially, and help America (and its allies) fight terrorism from within its own stronghold.

- Failure in Iraq (America pulling out, Iraq split-up, collapse of Iraqi government, etc) would create a firestorm of hatred for America not only from within the Middle East, but also throughout the Western and Eastern worlds as well. Beyond that, our credibility as a reliable source for military action would be severely tarnished, and would thereby give further hope to militants throughout the world in their fight against American and its allies for the dominance and proliferation of Islam throughout the modern world. Focused more in the Middle-East, what started as Iraq's civil war could indeed spread into Iran and Turkey, Syria and Lebanon, etc.

We MUST succeed in Iraq not only for the safety and security of the people of Iraq, but also the safety and security of those in America and indeed the Western world. As Mark Steyn points out in his book America Alone, Europe has placed itself it its own death-spin when it comes to fighting a war, including that of its own defense. The combination of poorly planned government spending, the shrinking populations within the countries themselves (Spain and Italy have some rough times ahead...), and the increase in Islamic cultures within the nations themselves (France? UK? Germany?) do indeed paint a dark picture for the future of Europe.

...If this war is indeed left to America and Australia, my we have Godspeed in our actions against those who fight for evil in our world today...
 
You know, more I think about it, we need to keep the bigger picture in mind. These Muslim Extremists are the biggest threat to the U.S. since the Soviet Union. But these guys fight a lot like the Viet Congs. They really hide, hide, hit, and hide some more. With the Islam being one of the fastest growing religion on the worldwide scale, it's really scary. These extremists could hide anywhere, and they(not Muslims in general, the extremists) are all out to get the U.S. or its' supporters, currently. How the U.S. handle Iraq situation is much bigger than Iraq itself.

On the international level, not just Iraq: If the U.S. hit them hard, I think it will fuel the fire even more. If the U.S. play nice, instead of reaching for peace, they will probably preach how they are winning their Jihad against the Americans, and keep pushing hard until the U.S. is completely destroyed.

I'm thinking really negative here, maybe because I'm tired. I just see a lose/lose situation. :indiff:
 


No one told him about the Birds of Prey on lease to Starfleet Command... with cloaking device? These are the same talking heads who sit in your TV box telling you that: 1. Everything is bad, bad, bad, and 2. Klingons and Vulcans are in the White House, violating the Prime Directive.

The Democrats are out of their Vulcan minds.
 
The Democrats are out of their Vulcan minds.
:lol: Great pun... although I tend to agree with the gist of what Wu is saying, there is something disturbing about using Star Trek analogies in Congress. I guess he thought he was being funny or something, but it comes across as pretty sad.
 
:lol: Great pun... although I tend to agree with the gist of what Wu is saying...

What was the gist of what he was saying? Something about vulcans being klingons? "Don't let faux klingons send Americans to war", so we're supposed to let REAL ones do it? So the president HAS to be a veteran from the front lines to declare war or deploy troops?

I'm not getting it at all.

BTW - has anyone else noticed that the GT40 on the GTPlanet banner has the front wheels spinning but not the back ones? What's that about?
 
People don't really have it right. If you are trying to prove something, you argue your point. Only when you are looking for a good time to you start bashing the other side.

For example, Bush-bashing in congress has no place. The house and Senate are not stand-up comedy rooms. Bashing gets nothing done.

My mom does this and I hate it. While I despise Bush, I realize bashing accomplishes nothing.

I see this thread moving toward the terrorist and Iraq coneection, and the muslim-terrorist coneection. We should steer clear of that. Those are not exactly true. The insurgents in Iraq are fighting to resist occupation, not to blow up Americans.

An interesting connection I just realized has to do with Civilization 3. When you take a city, you have to station more troops there to stop a resistence. More troops makes the resistence go away faster. Although that hasn't worked so far, I wonder if loading Iraq with US troops will make that strategy work.

EDIT: Good point, danoff. I wonder how that works. How would they get a pic with some wheels spinning and others still?
 
The insurgents in Iraq are fighting to resist occupation, not to blow up Americans.

The Americans are the occupying force, right? And a lot of them are fighting just because. They're blowing up many more of there own people then they are US soldiers.

You're right. Bashing does nothing.
 
The Americans are the occupying force, right? And a lot of them are fighting just because. They're blowing up many more of there own people then they are US soldiers.

This is true. But they have to be fighting for something. There must be a connection between the invasion and violence in Iraq. My guess would be that they were people in power, and are fighting to get it back, or get revenge. The other option, with a much smaller liklihood (wierd word, huh), is that Iraq has a much weaker security system than it did under Saddam.
 
The connection between the invasion and the violence is that their party has been ousted, and they want control back. They think they're the good guys.
 
The Americans are the occupying force, right? And a lot of them are fighting just because. They're blowing up many more of there own people then they are US soldiers.

You're right. Bashing does nothing.

WE know this, but it's not us that counts unfortunately. Take Palestine for instance - in modern times well over 70% of casualties are caused by in-fighting between different factions of Palestinians, but the people will still be united in hatred against the Israelis, fiercely and obviously so. Another example is taken from the book YSSMAN recommended, stating that 49% of Egyptians believed that the recent resort bombing was not carried out by terrorists, but by Mossad.

Honestly I believe the key lies with Iran and Syria - cut the supply somehow and maybe that then could lead to a safer, secure Iraq. How you'd go about stopping that, I don't know since I don't think Americans would want the war to expand into 2 more nations.
 
For example, Bush-bashing in congress has no place. The house and Senate are not stand-up comedy rooms. Bashing gets nothing done.
I see them as cheap shots. Main reason why I didn't even take John Kerry seriously. That man spent more time criticizing Bush than tell people what he was about, during the election race.
I see this thread moving toward the terrorist and Iraq coneection, and the muslim-terrorist coneection. We should steer clear of that. Those are not exactly true. The insurgents in Iraq are fighting to resist occupation, not to blow up Americans.
I do see your point, but it is almost opposite of what I said in my post. I'm starting to think that the occupation of Iraq is the frontline of a much bigger battle.

In my first post in reply to YSSMAN, I said that Iraq situation is more of an occupation than a war. But in a sense, it is a war against the muslim extremists IMO.
 
An interesting connection I just realized has to do with Civilization 3. When you take a city, you have to station more troops there to stop a resistence. More troops makes the resistence go away faster. Although that hasn't worked so far, I wonder if loading Iraq with US troops will make that strategy work.

I think that has been one of the biggest blunders of the Iraq war on the whole. Apparently there is some kind of mathematical figure used by the Pentagon to decide how many troops are required to take a country based on land mass and population. For some reason, the formula was ignored in Iraq, and instead we opted for the smaller, lighter, easier-to-move American forces. If I recall correctly it was a difference of the 400K+ soldiers required by the formula compared to the 100-150K soldiers actually used in the war.

The theory is that with more boots on the ground, we would have been able to take better control of the entire country and basically have made it a bit more of a "cake walk" compared to where we are now. I think the problem was that we assumed that we would be welcomed as liberators (for the most part, we were) and that citizens of Iraq would act like decent individuals (based on western ideas), and they did not.

...I would have supported more troops to begin with. I think the lessons of war would have proved that. Certainly small numbers worked well in Afghanistan, however we had the support of most of the rebel groups, and given the terrain of Afghanistan, a large army wouldn't have succeeded (look no further than the Soviet invasion from a few decades ago).

I think the most important thing to pull out of all of this is that we need to let the troops get there first, do what they are supposed to do, and thereby follow-up on what exactly has happened with their presence there. If it doesn't work, adjust accordingly... If it does, keep doing it until our situation is solved. Quite frankly, it is as simple as that, and maybe if we get lucky, we could be (for the most part) out of there before the close of the decade.
 
I think the problem was that we assumed that we would be welcomed as liberators (for the most part, we were) and that citizens of Iraq would act like decent individuals (based on western ideas), and they did not.

That is part of the problem. Our reputation has given us a bit of a cocky "torch-bearer of democracy" feel, and that democracy would be welcome wherever we go, after all, that is generally the case. So, that feeling really catches us when we are so full of ourselves and don;t realize that maybe we wonlt be welcome. The Iraqis are not western. They will not adopt western ideas too quickly. Also, this is our first invasion. That would make the values we are fighting for more of something to fight against. My feeling is that more troops could aggravate that part of the problem.
 
First invasion? Anybody forgetting the Philippines?

Armed rebels who'd formed a revolutionary government were already giving the Spanish a headache back at the turn of the century (19th to 20th). Then the Spanish had a little fracas with the Americans that turned pretty bloody for the Spanish, and American and Philippine troops pushed them out of Manila.

As part of the spoils of war, they sold the Philippine colony to the US for a nominal sum.

The Philippine independence government accepted the US forces with joy at first... but the American government refused to recognize the Indepence government. There was a pretty short war between the independents and the US after that, ostensibly over three Filipino soldiers killed by American forces. Predictably, it turned out bad for the locals.

Whether the forming of the Commonwealth under US guidance after that was a wise decision or not, nobody can really tell... but it's sad that they didn't work with the Independence government to set up a democracy, and instead decided that they "knew best" what the Philippines needed. Sort of: You'll accept democracy as we shove it down your throats... no, we can't vote on that... we're in charge. Kinda ironic... huh? Still, they did do their job, and they left us in great shape afterwards (although the Commonwealth they left behind has sort of rotted in the past few decades) but that single act has prompted anti-US sentiment for the past hundred years... and it's only gotten stronger since the Marcos era, since they gave so much support to that fascist bastard, merely because he was anti-communist.

The US probably didn't want a military government in charge, but then again, isn't that how the US started, many years ago? A revolutionary government can transition successfully to a democratic government, and, indeed, the leaders of the revolution itself were elected by the members in a general vote, and they drafted a democratic constitution long before hostilities ignited with US forces. If the US had agreed to accept this constitution, maybe they'd have a Philippines completely friendly towards them, instead of the love-hate relationship they have now.

------

Diversions aside, the main problem in Iraq was, and has always been, a failure of intelligence. It doesn't take a huge amount of brains to see that guerilla warfare and insurgency would start the moment US troops had settled in, considering a vast amount of Saddam's forces had gone to ground before the US troops waltzed in. Of course, it would have been hard to predict that Al Quaeda would have found such a strong foothold in Iraq after the invasion, but there you go.

Democracy can only really work from within. Of course, from the outside, we think we are only assisting the process... but in the eyes of the locals, any outside involvement is an imposition.

I do agree, that of all the forms of government, it is the one that seems to work best, but it's not a process that comes easy, and takes a lot of time.

That's something people will just have to accept in our dealings with Iraq. There is no quick and easy solution, and no, it's not all love for the "liberators", especially when local political groups have such a huge stake in the outcome of this occupation. If you don't make them feel like they're a part of the process, they'll rebel. The current, shaky, coalition government was a step in the right direction, and the pacing with which the US is trying to help the process along is good... but it's only the Iraqis who can really make it work.

All we can do is help keep the militants and Al Quaeda at bay (since you know the government won't allow more troops or a more decisive action than the one they're taking now) and hope for the best.
 
I agree that we cannot walk in and impose a pro-US gonvernment on the people. That has a high probability of making at least someone hating us. We should have learned this from places like Nicaraugua (spelling?) and Iran. Except, those times, it was the CIA. There may be some difference there.

Some proccesses cannot be rushed. The Soviet Union was a disaster because Russia had met almost none of the criteria for communism. Maybe Iraq does not have the capabilities to accept and run a successful democracy. If they are "inadequate," we may have to be in there awhile to shape the country, and maybe run their government for a while.

I shouldn't have said this was our first invastion. Mexico, Spanish-American war, Indians. The list goes on. We have been a part of many wars where something cheesy went on and we went to war, with the press saying we were attacked. Did Bush try something like this with Iraq version II?
 
That's one place we shouldn't go with this thread... I think we've had enough fighting in here over the justifications for the Iraqi war.

What's really important, though, is how we handle the tail end of this period in history. I'm not really big on "the end justifies the means", but now that we've had our means chosen for us, we have to ensure that the end is good for everyone.

The difference RE: CIA? Well, back then you had a small knit group of operatives who didn't answer to anyone but themselves. They were dedicated and intelligent, yes, but they were also egotistical and arrogant, too. Now you have a president with the same mindset, but he has the handicap of needing the approval of his own people and government.
 
My only comments on this subject.


Its about time and why so little ?


You fight to win or do not fight at all.
 
President Bush has a point; People continue to argue over what will and will not work, and yet we all have absolutely no idea since only a small portion of the 21,500 troops have arrived in Baghdad. What troops have arrived have already began to combat enemy insurgents/terrorists/etc, although violence has not diminished as an immediate effect. Chances are that having more troops in the area, with a greater involvement with the US Military training the Iraqis, should quell some of the violence. But it is up to the Iraqi people and the Iraqi government to get the sides to work things out, not just American troops.

...I saw today on CNN that Tony Blair is fighting-off a time table by which to remove the 7000 British troops in Southern Iraq. The same issues arise with America, setting a time table, no matter what the circumstances may be in the country only sets ourselves and the Iraqis up for more trouble in the immediate future. There is a process to reforming Iraq, and it is only a matter of time before things (hopefully) eventually work out.

...Until then, I'm waiting for a Democrat solution to how we should handle Iraq, as most of them neither have one, nor one that would be even slightly effective...
 
I can't remember where, but the news is the Democrats are already mulling a timetable for a total pull-out and turn-over in Iraq, with what few Americans that are left staying there to train local forces. Given that a lot of those "local forces" are either the very militia the Army is there to control or are actually very, very afraid of them, this can't be good news for the Iraqis.

I'm happy for my cousin, though... that'd mean no return tour for him, and having a kid in grade school, he really does need to stay alive, just to give her a chance at a normal home life when he's discharged.

But still... bad news for the Middle East... except for those particularly noisy people who chant anti-American slogans in the streets and may or may not be connected to bin Laden.

Maybe put it to a vote in Iraq? If they want the US out, as proven by general vote, there should be no problem with a pull-out... if they don't, maybe it'll convince the Dems to let more troops stay.
 
Congress HAS no choice to approve anything..the PRESIDENT is the commander and chief of the military...congress can kiss his behind on this...or they can abandon the troops and show the world what a bunch of cowards they are and attempt to withold funding....

after doing THAT...they can make retirement plans. Because they commited political suicide.

So what they will do is " symbolic" Horse crap and non bindding resolutions.

I am sure the real warriors in the Mid EAST are laughing their butts off at our new congress.


Osama's main message to his recruits is we deserve to die becuase we are WEAK and decadent and have no will to win.

LOL.....Our congress should just go work for him .
 
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