Dear Carmakers, We Need To Talk About Nürburgring Records

[GTPNewsWire]

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

Dear Carmakers, We Need To Talk About Nürburgring Records
We're getting increasingly worried by how obsessed some brands are getting about a statistic that has almost no merit...

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on June 7th, 2017 in the Car Culture category.

 

[Venari]

I visited in 1999 and I've not been back... yet. However, I am told by someone who had made many pilgramages since, it's not the same. Massive popularity means the road surface is continually being improved, so a car that did a lap in 8 minutes in 2007 would probably be a fair bit faster today. If you could figure out where you started and stopped a decade before. It is all nonsense. The best judge of the capabilities of a car and how much you enjoy driving it is you, anywhere you happen to be when you're driving.

 

[super_gt]

Very interesting article.👍

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

So let's make it short.
We shouldn't care about manufactures records at all, Since it's all a show of muscles.
As long as their records aren't done on the official street legal product limits - with the same street tires - used on the ring then we can't count it.

 

[prousonhairy]

There's too many gray areas with these so called "production" cars records, on what's qualifies a car as an actual production car. Most of those cars aren't production cars in my eyes.

The Pagani Zonda R, while that lap was awesome, is in no way a production car. I laughed when I saw they were counting that as a production car record, when it happened.

In my opinion, all these so called "production cars", the time to beat is still this:

I'll pay attention when one of them gets within ten seconds of this . Good luck with that.

 

[Lukanyon]

Great article!
It's good to have this kind of competition between manufacturers, as long as it's organized.
What we need is an official organization sanctioning these lap times (FIA, Guinness or whatever). We also need the definition of what a production car is and how much it can be modified from the one offered to the customer (which I think they shouldn't at all).

 

[Famine]

I know I wrote this and all, but one sentence near the end is particularly interesting to me.

Not to mention the danger of them buying into the hype, taking their car to a Touristfahrten because it’s built for it and leaving on a flatbed. Or ambulance.

The Renault Megane has held the FWD 'Ring 'lap record' on a few occasions. I guess that there's a wee scrap between Renault, Seat, Volkswagen and Honda for it. Inevitably people take their Meganes to the 'Ring...

These three crashes are different cars:






They're the heaviest crashes, but not exactly alone:




The Megane RS is a bloody impressive car. It's a proper, top-notch, hot hatch and it's quick in the real world and on a race track. I can't help but wonder how many of these drivers have gone to the 'Ring, self-assured that the car can handle it because it's the FWD lap record holder and stuffed it in their overconfidence.

 

[daan]

In my opinion, all these so called "production cars", the time to beat is still this:


View attachment 652295

I'll pay attention when one of them gets within ten seconds of this . Good luck with that.

The 956/962 have a much higher "production" figure than many on this page.

By 1991 and the tenth consecutive season of competition for the 956 and 962, Porsche said 148 had been built which, with 956 production totally around 27 units (depending on how you count cars with fitted with new tubs etc or rebuilt with new chassis numbers), that puts total 962 production at over 120, of which just 10 were works cars, but with the last 5 works cars used a production numbered tub as the basis, unlike the 956.

http://www.historicporsche.com/pages/about-the-historic-porsche-collection

 

[desmodan]

Excellent thread.
I've "done the ring" a few times , although the other half has now banned me (boooo) , fwd , rwd , 4wd , bikes , even a vw transporter t4 . It's ONE of the ultimate tests of any vehicle and driver/rider . And I was found sadly lacking on more than one occasion.

The only way of setting any "record" is to take a random showroom car (it's not like car manufactures would lie to us ! ) vag got caught but they ALL do it ) and give them all to the same driver on the same control tyres under the same weather conditions and a closed circuit.

If not your record means nothing.

 

[Tyger]

The situation has been getting a bit silly for a few years now, but the recent "Impreza" "record" takes the cake.

 

[McLaren]

There's too many gray areas with these so called "production" cars records, on what's qualifies a car as an actual production car. Most of those cars aren't production cars in my eyes.

The Pagani Zonda R, while that lap was awesome, is in no way a production car. I laughed when I saw they were counting that as a production car record, when it happened.

Do you have any links by chance? Every article I read about it made a note somewhere to mention the car wasn't street legal, therefore it wasn't a production car.

 

[Silver Arrows]

It's the automotive equivalent of dick measuring. It means nothing, but it does wonders for perspective buyers who see the numbers and think: "Holy hell, I could use this!" And then it leads to the crashes that Famine posted.

And as mentioned up thread, the fact there is so much grey area and fudging of the numbers with regards to lap times and telemetry data, even outright lying, means that it is even less useful for any sort of gleaming of performance.

 

[prousonhairy]

Do you have any links by chance? Every article I read about it made a note somewhere to mention the car wasn't street legal, therefore it wasn't a production car.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/pagani/zonda-r

There's several articles that make mention that even though it wasn't street legal, Pagani said because it was based on production car it was the record.

I've seen the "Production-derived" term used.

It's the silly grey areas I was talking about.

 

[McLaren]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/pagani/zonda-r

There's several articles that make mention that even though it wasn't street legal, Pagani said because it was based on production car it was the record.

I've seen the "Production-derived" term used.

It's the silly grey areas I was talking about.

It sounds like autocar is making that call just because Pagani said it's based on a production car. Almost every race car today is "based" on a production car of some sort.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Great article. For me Ring lap times are an excuse to see fast cars show what they're capable of. Granted any track will do, but the Nurburgring has always had that special something.

 

[prousonhairy]

It sounds like autocar is making that call just because Pagani said it's based on a production car. Almost every race car today is "based" on a production car of some sort.

I should of said "production-derived" car, because that's the category it falls under apparently. The 599x falls under that category too.

It sounds like a poor excuse of a category to me, it's as if "hey we can't catch the real record, and we can't be considered production, so let's start our own category."

 

[research]

I say we all just go to VIR ala Road and Track (though r&t are usually VERY biased towards american metal)

 

[desmodan]

The ring itself is not the problem.
It's a truly real world circuit where balance is god. 900hp is great on the final straight but too much to control in all the twisty bits. 300hp and good traction will be more than enough to master most parts but you'll get mugged in the last 2 miles. It's like Monza vs Monaco.
The issue is policing the cars. Gt6 comparison ? NSX-LM road car . Yes it meets the criteria but is it a road car ? Err...... No. It's a race car with a detuned engine.

 

[Famine]

Vauxhall/Opel makes a fast version of the Astra called the VXR/OPC Nurburgring Edition. It's not this car (not even in this shape, actually), but:

​

Another driver buying into the hype that his car can cope with it because it was made for it?

 

[super_gt]

Vauxhall/Opel makes a fast version of the Astra called the VXR/OPC Nurburgring Edition. It's not this car (not even in this shape, actually), but:

​

Another driver buying into the hype that his car can cope with it because it was made for it?

At least the safety in these cars is at the top level because both drivers go out on their own.(the driver from the first video has a broken arm)

 

[Tornado]

It sounds like a poor excuse of a category to me, it's as if "hey we can't catch the real record, and we can't be considered production, so let's start our own category."

With blackjack. And hookers.







In fact, forget about the Nurburgring.

 

[GTAQV]

The article has many holes and misinformation.

i'll try to be succint...

The lap times for the "full" nordschleife production car, the timming is measured with the start and finish being at different parts of the track (basicaly the start/finish straight is left out), so here nothing can be hold against the mclaren p1 lm...

This is actually something known, and it's very unlikely that someone that loves the track and follows this kind of stuff doesn't know about it... It is big flaw on an article about this subject.

The "semi-slick" tyres are common and more than perfectly acceptable on this type of car, all the cars metioned on this article had some sort of "semi-slick" tyre, except the zonda r and the nio which was rightfully announced by the manufacturers themselfs...

Likely more than half the lap times (who knows if not all) announced by manufacturers were made on development cars, this includes the 918 that was given kind of a free pass on this article in this regard (this is public info and porsche even named a few of the differences)...

The performante video tampering allegations were just the sad result of some angry fanboys.

...

This ring production car lap time is fun but there will be hardly any sort of controlled testing that will avoid any sort of tampering...

We're all dependent on manufacturers and car journalists good will...

The place where manufacturers race eachother under the supervision of an official and independent entity is called motorsports, and even there there are all kind of allegations of tampering and cheating...

Watch all you can if you enjoy it, and make up your own mind. Regardless your preferences you'll certainly find a way to rationalize things so that your favoured comes on top...

No need to write any further...

 

[Famine]

The article has many holes and misinformation.

Nope.

The lap times for the "full" nordschleife production car, the timming is measured with the start and finish being at different parts of the track (basicaly the start/finish straight is left out)

Watch the video of the McLaren P1LM. Then watch the video of the NIO EP9. You'll see the point of mentioning it.

That, of course, is not the only thing to hold against the P1LM, which is a five car run of modified racing cars. And the car that set the time wasn't even one of the five, but a test mule called the XP1LM.

The "semi-slick" tyres are common and more than perfectly acceptable on this type of car, all the cars metioned on this article had some sort of "semi-slick" tyre, except the zonda r and the nio which was rightfully announced by the manufacturers themselfs...

Semi-slick tyres are entirely legal for road use. However, they are a modification from production specification, at least for all but the Golf Clubsport S, which actually comes from the factory with the tyres it used for the run.

Likely more than half the lap times (who knows if not all) announced by manufacturers were made on development cars

Which means that they are not production cars... Which was the point.

this includes the 918 that was given kind of a free pass on this article in this regard (this is public info and porsche even named a few of the differences)

I was under the impression that it was a production vehicle with the Weissach package, which is why it got on the sport auto Trophy board which requires a road legal, TÜV-certified car registered in Germany.

The performante video tampering allegations were just the sad result of some angry fanboys.

Doubtless, however some experts have questioned the discrepancy between the Huracan's top speed and that of the Aventador, where despite being several miles an hour slower according to both cars' speedometers, the Huracan manages to be no slower down Dottinger Hohe than the Aventador. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been resolved yet.

This ring production car lap time is fun but there will be hardly any sort of controlled testing

And that's literally the point of the article. There isn't a 'Ring production car lap time, because most cars that do it aren't production cars or production specification and there's no independent timing control so there's no record.

It's fun, and cars that are fast there will probably be fast most places, but it's not an objective performance metric.

 

[GTAQV]

Nope

Sorry, but yep.

Watch the video of the McLaren P1LM. Then watch the video of the NIO EP9. You'll see the point of mentioning it.

That, of course, is not the only thing to hold against the P1LM, which is a five car run of modified racing cars. And the car that set the time wasn't even one of the five, but a test mule called the XP1LM.

Watch the videos of the performante, 918, radical just to name the top ones on the article list... possibly NIO was setting itself apart....

watch basically any video of any road car lap time, read/watch the auto motor und sport tests, see where is the start and finish.

It is very very very... very rare to find a lap that isn't timed this way (yes, i know some cases).

I wasn't centering on the the p1 lm, it was just the first on the list. As i also reffered the others on the top were also timed with development cars, the one argument against the p1 lm would be that is based on the gtr and developed by lanzante wich is strongly related to mclaren, although allegdly the cars were directly supplied and the project supported by mclaren... is it moraly valid as a production car or not, possibly not, but i dont really care all that much...

Semi-slick tyres are entirely legal for road use. However, they are a modification from production specification, at least for all but the Golf Clubsport S, which actually comes from the factory with the tyres it used for the run.

Probably all of them can came with them as an option, all the top cars come with them, on others was an option like on meganes, leons...

Which means that they are not production cars... Which was the point.

Well, than on the mentioned list probably shouldn't be any car... and that's the part many fail to grasp.

Doubtless, however some experts have questioned the discrepancy between the Huracan's top speed and that of the Aventador, where despite being several miles an hour slower according to both cars' speedometers, the Huracan manages to be no slower down Dottinger Hohe than the Aventador. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been resolved yet.

I've read a few of those articles, but those people aren't experts, not wanting to get involved in that kind of discussion i can give you this perspective.

Two different cars, all else equal (conditions, driver...), question:
Can a car enter a straight at a slower speed and reach a lower top speed and still be faster through the straight than a car that had a faster entry an top speeds?
Answer:
yes

What matters is average speed, and cars acceleration depends on various factors, mass, aerodynamics, gear ratios(just to keep it simple), and their influnce is not linear.

 

[Famine]

Sorry, but yep.

Nope. It's about five things you disagree with. None are holes or misinformation.

Watch the videos of the performante, 918, radical just to name the top ones on the article list... possibly NIO was setting itself apart...

Yeah, no.

The Radical is start line to finish line. The Performante is minus T13. The 918 is a bit hard to tell, but he only backs off at the finish line.

I wasn't centering on the the p1 lm, it was just the first on the list. As i also reffered the others on the top were also timed with development cars, the one argument against the p1 lm would be that is based on the gtr and developed by lanzante wich is strongly related to mclaren, although allegdly the cars were directly supplied and the project supported by mclaren... is it moraly valid as a production car or not, possibly not

As I said, there's myriad arguments against the P1LM, as it was a different car that did it and it's not a production car anyway.

but i dont really care all that much...

Uh-huh.

Probably all of them can came with them as an option, all the top cars come with them, on others was an option like on meganes, leons...

"Probably"...

Almost no road car in Europe is sold with semi-slicks as standard. I can think of two currently and they're the Ariel Atom (Yokohama A048) and some of the Caterham range (Avon ZZS). I think that the Focus RS could be ordered with something similar, but I'd have to check. The Megane 275 was sold with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres - which are road tyres - as an option, but the car is no longer on sale. The Leon was also sold with them as an option, and still is on sale. The current Civic Type R isn't actually out yet, but the press release notes it was using 'road legal, track-focused tyres'. That's the same comment as for the old Civic's lap time, but like the old Civic it is not sold with them. Honda sells it with Continental Sport Contact 6, which are road tyres that were developed for the car... Honda claims they are equivalent to the Pilot Cups, but either way, they're road tyres, not 'road legal, track-focused tyres'.

Well, than on the mentioned list probably shouldn't be any car... and that's the part many fail to grasp.

It's true, that almost all instances of 'production car' lap times are set by manufacturers on closed days in pre-production cars. I believe the 918 was taken straight from the production line to the TUV and registered (I think it's the same car The Grand Tour used, as it's Porsche's presser, although the images in the press release are of a different car). The Radical was in production for three years, when they drove it from the factory to the 'Ring, round the 'Ring, back home again and then ran it for a couple more months including a few track days without changing the tyres...

I've read a few of those articles, but those people aren't experts, not wanting to get involved in that kind of discussion i can give you this perspective...

Yeah, thanks for the explanation of basic car physics there, but when you say 'those people aren't experts' you're dismissing Robb Holland (Nurburgring VLN race winner), Christian von Koenigsegg (founder of Koenigsegg) and Jim Glickenhaus (Nurburgring racer, founder of Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus - and GTPlanet member).

Robb has since said, when Lamborghini revealed the lap telemetry, that he believes the lap time is genuine despite his initial concerns. Koenigsegg was also happy with the time when it was revealed the car used custom made (read: slick) versions of the Pirelli P Zero Trofeo Rs. I think Glickenhaus is still on the fence, but you can have that chat with him yourself if you want to call him a 'sad angry fanboy'. I'll suggest that you don't though.


Just for reference, here's the relevant clips, starting at the gantry:

Performante:
Aventador:

And ending at the bridge:

Performante:
Aventador:

The average speed of both cars is 290km/h. The Performante was above 290km/h for just 11 seconds, while the Aventador, which starts 6km/h faster, was above it for 16 seconds and reaches a top speed 22km/h higher.


This is why I refer to 'allegations' of video tampering in the article, rather than actual video tampering.


Incidentally, the purpose of articles like this is to generate exactly this kind of discussion, so thanks for taking part. Just please do so a little more politely in your very first line next time...

 

[GTAQV]

It's about five things you disagree with. None are holes or misinformation.

I wan't counting, i don't agree with multiple things, but i don't really have the will to discuss it all, but more importantly part of the article's structure is based on those points...

The Radical is start line to finish line. The Performante is minus T13. The 918 is a bit hard to tell, but he only backs off at the finish line.

You're wrong the radical and 918 records are not from the complete lap, the pilots are pushing through the whole lap but the actual lap times were measured by the standard "incomplete lap" like the others...

Almost no road car in Europe is sold with semi-slicks as standard. I can think of two currently and they're the Ariel Atom (Yokohama A048) and some of the Caterham range (Avon ZZS). I think that the Focus RS could be ordered with something similar, but I'd have to check. The Megane 275 was sold with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres - which are road tyres - as an option, but the car is no longer on sale. The Leon was also sold with them as an option, and still is on sale. The current Civic Type R isn't actually out yet, but the press release notes it was using 'road legal, track-focused tyres'. That's the same comment as for the old Civic's lap time, but like the old Civic it is not sold with them. Honda sells it with Continental Sport Contact 6, which are road tyres that were developed for the car... Honda claims they are equivalent to the Pilot Cups, but either way, they're road tyres, not 'road legal, track-focused tyres'.

Semi-slick tyres are relatively common, for example tyres like pirelli pzero corsa, michelin pilot sport cup2, or the trofeo r, are all legal road tyres and semi-slicks track focussed tyres ( obviously some more than others), and can come at least come as an option in multiple cars even on hatchbacks... at least on meganes, leons, focus rs, and also on the civic type r (this is for the "old one", like you said the new is not out yet), and the CTR was actually sold on those tyres (at least on some markets (obviously i can't be sure of all markets that would be silly).

And by the way, changing the standard tyres for other road legal tyres, is it really adultering a production car record? For instance in various countries is illegal to perform any changes on a standard road car, but you can put any semi-slick tyres as long as they are road legal (for instance the trofeo r). But that's another discussion...

It's true, that almost all instances of 'production car' lap times are set by manufacturers on closed days in pre-production cars. I believe the 918 was taken straight from the production line to the TUV and registered (I think it's the same car The Grand Tour used, as it's Porsche's presser, although the images in the press release are of a different car)...

Porsche is rightfully one of the most loved brands, but i find amusing how they can have so much faith from people that are so suspicious about other brands, for example you like many others blindly seem believe that the record car came untouched from production line and that the its lap time unlike the others was from the full lap. At least you could have checked that the lap time was from the "standard incomplete lap"... and for instance porsche has even released a lap time record for the panamera turbo with a roll cage and no back seats...
And obviously it is not for being registered that the record 918 is more straight from production line than the p1 lm development car.

Yeah, thanks for the explanation of basic car physics there,

Then you should not have have much trouble in believing that the video is genuine. I'm not going to lose time meticuluosly trying to prove anything... Surely you understand how that kind of gross estimation is very prone to error. As you said Lamboghini even realeased the telemetry which is far more than most have done.


I thank you for your attention and responses but we really dont have to come to an agreement. I recognize that you love cars, performance, and that you try to have some logic on your opinions. Kudos to you just for that.

 

[CyborgGT]

The article's so late as to be wasted effort. Automotive journalists have been writing about how overrated this whole Nurburgring-lap-time thing is for several years now.


Lol at "A car that’s comfortable around the ‘Ring will be comfortable everywhere." Didn't James May, the sensible of the idiots, give several rants about how tuning at the 'ring ruins a car's comfort?

 

[Sick Lenny]

Vauxhall/Opel makes a fast version of the Astra called the VXR/OPC Nurburgring Edition. It's not this car (not even in this shape, actually), but:

​

Another driver buying into the hype that his car can cope with it because it was made for it?

I would say it looks more like drivers who played too much GT and thought they would just bounce off the walls, not flip over and the hand of God would take care of them from that point.