50 dead at Orlando club shooting.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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The buffer spring absorbs most all recoil and pulls the whole bolt and carrier group into the stock area. They have almost zero recoil. Believe me, I have real experience not just fired one once.
I've shot an AR 15 only once and it was maybe 5 shots, so forgive me if I'm a bit off. But reharding handguns, they are super easy to use...Except for when you hit the .44s and above. Those just beco,e plain difficult to shoot at any reasonable rate.
 
I've shot an AR 15 only once and it was maybe 5 shots, so forgive me if I'm a bit off. But reharding handguns, they are super easy to use...Except for when you hit the .44s and above. Those just beco,e plain difficult to shoot at any reasonable rate.

I'm not knocking your experience per se. It's just not really right to pick apart someone's knowledge like asking if @A2K78 ever shot a gun before but while you have, now you have to admit that you yourself don't really know that much. But that's a common theme in this thread but it's not limited to just this thread. The AR15 debate is nothing new but people still think they are fully automatic assault weapons but the truth of the matter is it's really no different than any other rifle function wise and the look it what gets people. It's bar none probably the most popular rifle in the history of all rifles in the US. There are literally millions of them in America. So the fact they get used for things like this has nothing to do with functionality but rather popularity. AR15s are no more dangerous than any other rifle in it's class. One could argue magazine capacity but states like California have regulated that with no effect. The San Bernardino Terrorist Attack in December was carried out with ARs that did not meet California regulations. No law matters to people driven to murder. They used other weapons as well but the AR again takes the blame because of media portrayal banking on the fact that people don't actually know what they are. As stated earlier in this thread, it's a simple case of prejudice towards something most don't understand. Nobody can seriously tell me that if you single out one particular rifle, Joe Schmoe gun owner is more inclined to commit mass murder because he owns one.
 
Oh look.

#NothingToDoWithChristians

See the irony?

Uh yeah, the shooting had literally nothing to do with Christians. If you really want to play this stupid game of but they did it too! (Which actually, they also didn't. Christians hadn't mass murder homosexuals yet.)
I wonder if he got inspired by this 'scholar':


The guy is from Florida to boot. Of all the place you could catch a radical preacher in action.

No, I don't see any irony because I'm not a Christian. Also, nice deflection to Christians. Meanwhile, a Muslim just killed 49 homosexuals. If you wanna talk about irony, I wonder how homosexuals are doing over in Aceh.

That's probably why the FBI interviewed him so many times and why he was yelling allah ackbar (or however it's spelled) and pledging allegiance to ISIS in his 911 call during the event. That makes sense.

Gotta say, you really got me there.
Yeah, I know he was shouting Allahu Akbar and all, while killing people condemned by his religion but..., it's inconclusive. /s
 
More of this would genuinely help to stop the problem. Well spoken by the fella, it's a message of tolerance and that's something missing from a lot of places today.

Completely agreed, that tolerance really is Islam. ISIS and people acting the way they do in the world... they are not. And of course other Muslims too who are missing this crucial value that makes Islam.
 
Getting back to the issue of nightclubs this shooting is a further indictment of them and how extremely dangerous they are as tend to be places of drugs and violence.
 
In America maybe, from an Australian standpoint I would say apart from physical violence there is not much to be worried about.
 
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Nightclubs, dangerous ****!
 
In America maybe, from an Australian standpoint I would say apart from physical violence there is not much to be worried about.

Really the only action I ever hear about happening at nightclubs is the occasional drunken street fight. Those can happen anywhere there is alcohol though.

Even if they were some kind of gang hangouts I can't imagine them flocking to a gay club.
 
The problem with guns is that:

- They are fairly easy to get.
- They cause more destructive power than a knife (ranged as opposed to close-quarters).
- They are fairly easy to use.
That's not a problem when someone actually takes responsibility for one:
A study undertaken by a group led by criminologist Dr. Gary Kleck of Florida State University found that there are approximately 2.1 to 2.5 million instances annually in which individual Americans use a gun to defend themselves. Considered as households, the figure is 1.3 to 1.5 million annual DGUs (Kleck 1995, Table 2). If this figure is correct, defensive uses of firearms are much more common than crimes committed with guns.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate

The discussion revolves around getting rid of rifles, though.
Assault rifles make everything worse, they are not easy to use, but if you get your hands on one you probably know how to use it well. And they serve no purpose outside a shooting range and shooting things for fun.
Right.... The worse weapon that is, remember, SO EASY TO GET, is killing the least amount of people for a gun.
Pressure cookers are useful things and not used "just for fun". That's why you can't compare the two.
Again, so are knives and blunt objects. They account for more deaths than rifles every year.
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Yet the people who favor having guns end up winning the argument just because of the Constitution, and refuse to ban assault rifles because "We have fun shooting stuff". What's the drawback to banning assault rifles if nobody in the USA cares about them?
The drawback is you punish the people who do enjoy owning them because of a small handful of lunatics. Meanwhile, more people are getting murdered by everyday objects. Explain why I need to have my rifle taken away when you're more likely to die by a knife than by my rifle. 300 deaths a year from a rifle, show you have very, very little chance of being killed by one.
 
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Again, so are knives and blunt objects. They account for more deaths than rifles every year.

No, they don't, you're missing 20,000 suicides from those figures, that table only shows murders. There are also about 1850 deaths per year without an attributed weapon type.
 
That's not a problem when someone actually takes responsibility for one

Thank God we live in a world were every single person uses their firearms responsibly and doesn't shoot up a night club...

oh wait

Right.... The worse weapon that is, remember, SO EASY TO GET, is killing the least amount of people for a gun.

Again, so are knives and blunt objects. They account for more deaths than rifles every year.
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Yet guns vastly outnumber guns. And you keep missing the point that, if a guy is walking on the street with an assault rifle on his hands he is probably about to use it.

The drawback is you punish the people who do enjoy owning them because of a small handful of lunatics. Meanwhile, more people are getting murdered by everyday objects. Explain why I need to have my rifle taken away when you're more likely to die by a knife than by my rifle. 300 deaths a year from a rifle, show you have very, very little chance of being killed by one.

Your argument boils down to "if we can't ban every day objects, we shouldn't ban guns". When my argument is "if we banned assault rifles, we could prevent these kind of massacres". Because I doubt someone will enter a night club with a knife and murder 50 people.

Am I treading on other people's passtimes? Yeah, and frankly I don't mind because I will be thinking of them when one of my family members ends up shot and killed in a night club just because those people could enjoy their sport of shooting at stuff.

If I ban assault rifles just to spare a few people's lives, so be it. You can have fun in a lot of ways. Using real bullets in a real gun shouldn't need to be one of them. Whereas knives, we pretty much need them to make our life a lot more easier. Same with cars. Same with a lot of things not built with the express purpose of killing people.
 
Thank God we live in a world were every single person uses their firearms responsibly and doesn't shoot up a night club...

oh wait
This goes for everything, including the things you don't want to ban. Accidents or not, deaths still happen. You might not like guns, but that doesn't make them objectively worse than other things.





if a guy is walking on the street with an assault rifle on his hands he is probably about to use it.
I still don't see what this has to do with anything. Even if it's true, it's probably true in part thanks to making the guns illegal so that only people willing to do illegal things would be holding them.



Your argument boils down to "if we can't ban every day objects, we shouldn't ban guns". When my argument is "if we banned assault rifles, we could prevent these kind of massacres". Because I doubt someone will enter a night club with a knife and murder 50 people.
They could blow it up instead. The argument against the ban is that people who have done nothing wrong shouldn't be punished because of the guilty. It's not like taking an all or nothing approach would make the world completely safe anyway.

Am I treading on other people's passtimes? Yeah, and frankly I don't mind because I will be thinking of them when one of my family members ends up shot and killed in a night club just because those people could enjoy their sport of shooting at stuff.
Those people using rifles for fun have nothing to do with people being murdered. I see no reason to force them to give something up so that you feel safer. You could take away all the guns and make it impossible for someone to shoot you and they could still get run over a by a driver distracted by birds. It's accident, but the result is the same.

If I ban assault rifles just to spare a few people's lives, so be it. You can have fun in a lot of ways. Using real bullets in a real gun shouldn't need to be one of them. Whereas knives, we pretty much need them to make our life a lot more easier. Same with cars. Same with a lot of things not built with the express purpose of killing people.
We don't need much. If we followed your logic, we would all basically be in jail cells with a water source and some bread. That's all we need, and on paper it would save every life. It sounds completely stupid though.
 
Thank God we live in a world were every single person uses their firearms responsibly and doesn't shoot up a night club...

oh wait
And yet, as you clearly failed to read the study, 1 extreme example doesn't change the fact that your problem with guns isn't the problem at all when they're being used more for defense than offense.

Yet guns vastly outnumber guns. And you keep missing the point that, if a guy is walking on the street with an assault rifle on his hands he is probably about to use it.
Oh my god, look at all these people about to murder everyone!
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The irony is that a lot of these people did this just to antagonize folks like you. How shocking would it be to know you're likely much safer around any of these men seeing as they didn't buy these guns with the intent to start spraying bullets into public and know how to use them correctly. Can you guess who is showing correct trigger safety?

Your argument boils down to "if we can't ban every day objects, we shouldn't ban guns". When my argument is "if we banned assault rifles, we could prevent these kind of massacres". Because I doubt someone will enter a night club with a knife and murder 50 people.
Just as I'm sure anyone would doubt someone would go into a marathon & place pressure cookers on the street instead of shooting everyone with a rifle that's so easy to acquire....
Am I treading on other people's passtimes? Yeah, and frankly I don't mind because I will be thinking of them when one of my family members ends up shot and killed in a night club just because those people could enjoy their sport of shooting at stuff.

If I ban assault rifles just to spare a few people's lives, so be it.
So by that logic, I can spare even more lives banning a knife as well.
You can have fun in a lot of ways. Using real bullets in a real gun shouldn't need to be one of them. Whereas knives, we pretty much need them to make our life a lot more easier. Same with cars. Same with a lot of things not built with the express purpose of killing people.
Too bad this isn't a valid argument. Just because you don't find any enjoyment in it doesn't mean someone who does should give it up.

And you can shout out the purpose of a gun all you want. When you're done being ignorant & afraid of them, you can join the rest of society that mainly uses guns for anything but killing people.
 
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I will say I would feel uncomfortable with the last one as he has made that thing way to easy for someone else to come and use the thing. The other two examples are how it should be done in my mind.
 
And yet, as you clearly failed to read the study, 1 extreme example doesn't change the fact that your problem with guns isn't the problem at all when they're being used more for defense than offense.

Say that to the people who's family was killed. I would have loved to see the gunner give it a try using a knife.

Oh my god, look at all these people about to murder everyone!

The irony is that a lot of these people did this just to antagonize folks like you.

I will keep it in mind to go to the former Twin Towers dressed as a Muslim holding pretend dynamite in my hands.

It-it's just a joke officer! Don't you see you are being paranoid?

How shocking would it be to know you're likely much safer around any of these men seeing as they didn't buy these guns with the intent to start spraying bullets into public and know how to use them correctly. Can you guess who is showing correct trigger safety?

I don't know how safer would I be, to be honest. I would feel much safer if it was me and another dude against one guy armed with a knife, or me and a crowd against one dude with a handgun. There's just so many bullets a handgun can spit before we tackle the dude down.

Not to mention I would feel much safer in a place where you can't take an assault rifle off someone's hands and shoot up the supermarket.

Just as I'm sure anyone would doubt someone would go into a marathon & place pressure cookers on the street instead of shooting everyone with a rifle that's so easy to acquire....

Sadly that was a terrorist attack, as opposed to the many people who have shot up their schools for fun, or people who mayhaps decided, one day, to shoot up people. Bombing just doesn't feel as good as shooting people, and making a bomb certainly takes more time than grabbing your trusty assault rifle.

So by that logic, I can spare even more lives banning a knife as well.

Too bad this isn't a valid argument. Just because you don't find any enjoyment in it doesn't mean someone who does should give it up.

It's more valid than "let's ban every useful item ever created by mankind just because it may be used to kill people despite it going against its original purpose".

And you can shout out the purpose of a gun all you want. When you're done being ignorant & afraid of them

I'm not afraid of guns, I'm afraid of the laws that place them on the hands of ignorant and dangerous people.
 
Say that to the people who's family was killed. I would have loved to see the gunner give it a try using a knife.
I can say it to the families where a gun saved them just as well.
I will keep it in mind to go to the former Twin Towers dressed as a Muslim holding pretend dynamite in my hands.

It-it's just a joke officer! Don't you see you are being paranoid?
The difference is they have the right to do that & showing not everyone walking around with a rifle is a bad guy. Sorry, dynamite isn't protected by that right.
I don't know how safer would I be, to be honest. I would feel much safer if it was me and another dude against one guy armed with a knife, or me and a crowd against one dude with a handgun. There's just so many bullets a handgun can spit before we tackle the dude down.
That's funny. Up until Orlando, the deadliest shooting in America was done by a handgun. 3 of the top 5 current shootings don't involve a rifle at all, either.

What you're doing is just talking like a big man. Acting in the moment is entirely different circumstance.
Not to mention I would feel much safer in a place where you can't take an assault rifle off someone's hands and shoot up the supermarket.
You're not going to be able to go up and grab the trigger. Ignoring again that these people do learn how to properly own & use these weapons.

Sadly that was a terrorist attack, as opposed to the many people who have shot up their schools for fun, or people who mayhaps decided, one day, to shoot up people.
Last I checked, this & San Bernardino were classified as terrorist attacks as well.... It doesn't change the fact that just as you assume no one would go into a club with a knife to kill 50 people, no one would assume someone would try to bomb a marathon in the US. The reality is, no one ever assumes these things to begin with because it creates fear.
Bombing just doesn't feel as good as shooting people, and making a bomb certainly takes more time than grabbing your trusty assault rifle.
That's a disturbing assumption to make that still comes down to the sick individual.

It's more valid than "let's ban every useful item ever created by mankind just because it may be used to kill people despite it going against its original purpose".
Nope. Your preferences don't get to decide for everyone else.

I'm not afraid of guns, I'm afraid of the laws that place them on the hands of ignorant and dangerous people.
Then you take issue with the laws & not the weapon, that's the difference in the debate. I think the gun should be allowed to own, but require a much harsher requirement for that privilege. You just want to gun gone because you don't like it.
 
I can say it to the families where a gun saved them just as well.

I wonder how many of those saved themselves using an assault rifle as opposed to a regular handgun or shotgun.

The difference is they have the right to do that & showing not everyone walking around with a rifle is a bad guy. Sorry, dynamite isn't protected by that right.

Maybe I'll have to be creative? I'll dress like a Nazi and hope people don't judge me.

What you're doing is just talking like a big man. Acting in the moment is entirely different circumstance.

Of course, and actually knowing how to act with your gun in a real situation (with someone spraying the entire place with bullets) is entirely a different circumstance.

You're not going to be able to go up and grab the trigger. Ignoring again that these people do learn how to properly own & use these weapons.

Why not? What stops me and one buddy from grabbing one of those persons and take their rifle off them, other than the fact it would be a 1 in a billion chance for me to want to shoot up a supermarket and someone casually having a rifle strapped on to them?

The answer is: nothing.

Last I checked, this & San Bernardino were classified as terrorist attacks as well.... It doesn't change the fact that just as you assume no one would go into a club with a knife to kill 50 people, no one would assume someone would try to bomb a marathon in the US. The reality is, no one ever assumes these things to begin with because it creates fear.

It's not about assuming an attack will happen, it's about assuming how many casualties could one provoke from those acts. Like I mentioned, I would like to see one person killing 50 others using nothing but a knife.

That's a disturbing assumption to make that still comes down to the sick individual.

It's disturbing because it is the truth. Killing people is already disturbing and, though we do not need to mention it, these people (most likely) enjoying killing people.

Nope. Your preferences don't get to decide for everyone else.

Apparently they do, as I wouldn't be able to walk around with dynamite if I wanted to. It's the basis of law, really: have someone else decide for me what I would like to decide for myself.

Then you take issue with the laws & not the weapon, that's the difference in the debate. I think the gun should be allowed to own, but require a much harsher requirement for that privilege. You just want to gun gone because you don't like it.

No, I want certain guns gone because they aren't needed for something else than fun, and even then, there's substitutes or alternative choices for that.

I'll say it one last time: the only issue you have with this is "we want to keep them for fun". That's what you told me. I respect that. But seeing how things are, and seeing I don't (or anybody) have a REAL need to own an assault rifle... well, I'd rather keep them off the streets. For that matter: if videogames actually caused a lot of deaths, then, even though I LOVE videogames, I would make concessions.
 
I respect that. But seeing how things are, and seeing I don't (or anybody) have a REAL need to own an assault rifle... well, I'd rather keep them off the streets.

So what happens when scumbags like this can't get ahold of an assault weapon and go for the McVeigh truck bomb instead?
 
I wonder how many of those saved themselves using an assault rifle as opposed to a regular handgun or shotgun.
You posted you had problems with guns (not just rifles) & why they're unnecessary. Those problems are not problems for others, esp. if is a study is finding guns are used more often for defensive purposes than used for crimes.

Of course, and actually knowing how to act with your gun in a real situation (with someone spraying the entire place with bullets) is entirely a different circumstance.
It's not because most people actively carrying in the public are given training on how to use their weapon in public; self defense & only as a last resort. You're attempts to use my own rebuttal don't work if you don't understand the responsibilities legal gun owners abide by.

Why not? What stops me and one buddy from grabbing one of those persons and take their rifle off them, other than the fact it would be a 1 in a billion chance for me to want to shoot up a supermarket and someone casually having a rifle strapped on to them?

The answer is: nothing.
I'm amused you think you could just grab a gun off someone without a fight ensuing, not taking into account that the gun likely has a safety on, and there's no round in the chamber. Adding in a "buddy" only shows your attempt at trying to convey an extreme situation where you win & validate your fantasy. In all likely hood, even a criminal including yourself theoretically, would not try to mess with a man carrying a rifle in public. These people aren't morons without a clue of what they're carrying.

It's not about assuming an attack will happen, it's about assuming how many casualties could one provoke from those acts. Like I mentioned, I would like to see one person killing 50 others using nothing but a knife.
Just as you would like to think you & a group of people would take down a man with a handgun, despite history showing otherwise?

Apparently they do, as I wouldn't be able to walk around with dynamite if I wanted to. It's the basis of law, really: have someone else decide for me what I would like to decide for myself.
And what happens when the law decides something for you that you wouldn't decide for yourself? This situation, because you don't get to have everything tailored to what you'd like.

No, I want certain guns gone because they aren't needed for something else than fun, and even then, there's substitutes or alternative choices for that.
In your opinion. There are substitutes to plenty of things people do not need.
I'll say it one last time: the only issue you have with this is "we want to keep them for fun". That's what you told me. I respect that. But seeing how things are, and seeing I don't (or anybody) have a REAL need to own an assault rifle... well, I'd rather keep them off the streets. For that matter: if videogames actually caused a lot of deaths, then, even though I LOVE videogames, I would make concessions.
That's interesting considering people have lobbied for certain video games to be banned because it influences people to carry out what they see. They blamed something else instead of the person.
 
So what happens when scumbags like this can't get ahold of an assault weapon and go for the McVeigh truck bomb instead?
VHS defeated Beta. LCD defeated plasma.

Maybe we just need better advertising for worse products..... "Water guns!! - because per capita, more infidels die by drowning than from gunfire."
 
You posted you had problems with guns (not just rifles) & why they're unnecessary. Those problems are not problems for others, esp. if is a study is finding guns are used more often for defensive purposes than used for crimes.

No, I got into this discussion to talk about assault rifles and similar weapons beyond the scope of a handgun. Handguns I can perfectly understand because robbers often are armed, and you can't just bring a knife to a gunfight.

It's not because most people actively carrying in the public are given training on how to use their weapon in public; self defense & only as a last resort. You're attempts to use my own rebuttal don't work if you don't understand the responsibilities legal gun owners abide by.

And you think training equals action? It doesn't work that way in football, why in God's name do you think it will work precisely the same when your life and many others are in danger?

I'm amused you think you could just grab a gun off someone without a fight ensuing

I'm amused you thought I thought that. Of course I would need to forcefully remove it from him/her. I would go behind his back and know him out, or have a buddy help me.

Just as you would like to think you & a group of people would take down a man with a handgun, despite history showing otherwise?

I haven't seen the accounts you are talking about to make an informed decision on what exactly happened beyond "people died", but I was talking specifically about a supermarket shooting situation.

And what happens when the law decides something for you that you wouldn't decide for yourself?

Who says I can't make a decision? If I know what I like and I know what I don't like, it's easy for me to make a decision for myself.

What the law does is take decisions for us because we are born into it. Do you think I would follow everything the law tells me to do if I didn't have to and weren't punished because of it? Or anybody else, for that matter?

In your opinion. There are substitutes to plenty of things people do not need.

And in my opinion, there are no substitutes at all to things people "do not need" that can't be banned on the basis of "it may kill someone".

Otherwise we would only have our bodies and nothing else to do things. No cars, no tools, no nothing.

That's interesting considering people have lobbied for certain video games to be banned because it influences people to carry out what they see. They blamed something else instead of the person.

Exactly. Except there's no correlation at all between playing a video game and killing people because of a videogame. At all.

I'm tired of this and frankly I don't care anymore. I guess I'm just lucky to live in a place that shares my beliefs.
 
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