787b

[superberkut]

It's off-topic, but what engine type does the Lotus Type 30 run? Was this before the Cosworth era?

Anyways, the Mazda race staff refused to race the original winning car, so they repainted the sister car (it finished sixth in the 1991 24 Hours of Le Mans, N.202) to run at historic events. Whether this has to do with preserving the original motor or not is yet to be confirmed, but it seems like an unconventional practice, though a clever one.

Curious: why is it that no single figure can be given for rotary engines? Is it inconsistent with traditional practices, or is it just the way PD chose to display it for GT3?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

It's off-topic, but what engine type does the Lotus Type 30 run? Was this before the Cosworth era?

Not sure offhand. I'd hit wikipedia and some sports car websites like www.supercars.net to find the answer.

Anyways, the Mazda race staff refused to race the original winning car, so they repainted the sister car (it finished sixth in the 1991 24 Hours of Le Mans, N.202) to run at historic events. Whether this has to do with preserving the original motor or not is yet to be confirmed, but it seems like an unconventional practice, though a clever one.

Curious: why is it that no single figure can be given for rotary engines? Is it inconsistent with traditional practices, or is it just the way PD chose to display it for GT3?

What do you mean? For horsepower?

 

[The359]

To correct what some were saying earlier regarding the 1991 24 Hours of Le Mans:

* Jaguar and Mercedes did not fail to qualify for Le Mans with the newer XJR-14 and C291. XJR-14 #4 set the second fastest qualifying time behind a Mercedes C11. The XJR-14 was withdrawn because the team did not feel the Cosworth HB V8s could last 24 hours. Mercedes practiced with a C291 but withdrew it before it could set a qualifying time, again because of worries over the Flat-12s they were running (for good reason, the blocks were bad). Peugeot was forced to run their 905s because they had no older car to fall back on, and Le Mans was still part of the World Sportscar Championship season and hence was a points event. The older XJR-12s and C11s had already been entered before practice even began because of the known reliability issues and the pressing need for the teams to earn points.

* The Jaguar XJR-12 and Mercedes C11 were not obsolete. The XJR-12, with a naturally aspirated V12, debuted at the 1990 24 Hours of Daytona as a more reliable endurance variant to the turbocharged V6 XJR-10 which ran in IMSA and XJR-11 which ran in WSC. The XJR-12 had also won the 1990 24 Hours of Le Mans. The Mercedes C11 debuted in the second round of the WSC in 1990 as well, and in fact was still being run during the three races prior to Le Mans in 1991. The 787 on the other hand also debuted in 1990, running just the JSPC series before the 787B finally entered the World Sportscar Championship in 1991.

* Looking at the rest of the 1991 World Sportscar Championship season, Mazda's next best result outside of Le Mans was a 5th at the Nurburgring (with the 787, not a 787B). They finished the championship in fifth, behind Mercedes, Jaguar, Peugeot AND the privateer Euro Racing team who was running year-old Spice chassis and a Ford Cosworth V8 based on the 1960s DFV. Mazda also finished a mere four points ahead (thanks to their Le Mans win points) of Kremer Racing who was running Porsche 962s which had started life in 1984.

* Yes, reliability did play into the hands of Mazda, but it was not simply the other teams being distracted. Mazda's plan for Le Mans was to designate a rabbit and a tortoise. One car would run as quickly as possible to attempt to get competitors to chas it and break, while the second car would talk a calmer pace to try and survive until the end. It simply happened that Mazda's rabbit, which was not intended to survive, did. Mazda's tortoise ended up where expected after the competitors broke, only five laps behind the leading Jaguar. Mazda used this tactic again in 1992 in the Jaguar-built Judd-engined MXR-01s, and again briefly led the race, but the cars did not last as they had in 1991.

* Rotaries were not banned after Mazda's 1991 win. The 1992 World Sportscar Championship engine regulations had been announced in 1990, requiring everyone to run naturally aspirated engines of 3500 cc, identical to Formula One engines. Mazda's rotary, classified under FIA formulas as a 2.6 liter, obviously would not have been able to compete with 3.5L engines which revved as high if not higher than the R26B rotary. Mazda knew the regulations were coming and 1991 was planned from the start to be the final year for the rotaries. The 787B could have run Le Mans (but not other WSC events) in 1992 under the "C2" class, which Toyota opted to run their older turbocharged 92C-Vs in alongside the "C1" glass TS010s, but Mazda chose instead to concentrate on the 3.5L MXR-01s.

At the same time, Mazda moved to the Camel GT Championship with the RX-792P which also ran the R26B 4-rotor. The cars notoriously caught fire several times because their exhaust could not handle the rotary's heat. The season best was a second at Watkins Glen, five laps behind the Toyota Eagle MkIII which was running a turbocharged 4-cylinder. Mazda withdrew from prototypes after 1992, cancelling the MXR-01 and RX-792Ps together.

After the World Sportscar Championship collapsed at the end of 1992 and Group C and the Camel GTP championship died off in 1994, Mazda entered Kudzu-built LMPs from 1995 to 1997 at Le Mans, with finishes of 7th, 25th (last finisher), and 17th (last finisher), running both a 3-rotor and R26B 4-rotor. In 2002, AutoExe entered a WR LMP with the R26B 4-rotor, which failed after 5 laps.

Mazda's most recent rotary prototypes were the Courage-Mazdas of BK Motorsports in the ALMS from 2005 - 2006 running a production-based 2-rotor. 2005 championship position of third with one "win", claimed by the fact that they were the last LMP2 car to break and not finish, and a 2006 season which saw the team miss half the races because their car was too badly damaged. Mazda cancelled the rotary program and now runs a turbocharged Inline-4 in prototypes in 2007.

 

[Skid Mark 33]

I usally go onto arcade mode, go on to the test course, and do a 10-lap race against the Mazda 787B in a Nissan R90 Race Car. I can always keep up with it, just by slipstreaming it, and hanging on to it's back end. But I can never win, even when I don't pit and he does. One, he pitted on lap 6, but by the start of lap 9, he was right on my arse. So he got past me, and I tried to overtake him, then block him on the final turn on the final lap, but he still slipped past. The 787B is bloody amazing.

 

[GTveteran]

The Type 30 runs the Ford 289ci/4.7l mustang V8.

 

[nitrorustler41]

have you guys ever heard the real 787b idle? it is verrrrrryyyy seperated due to the race porting on the engine. it sounds pretty neat go on youtube, and check out some of the videos. it would be extra awsome if it sounded like the real thing in the game. upper rpms sound pretty darn close though. it is not really raspy enough though

 

[GTveteran]

Here you go. The exhausts are more Type 40 but it is a 30.

 

[superberkut]

To correct what some were saying earlier regarding the 1991 24 Hours of Le Mans:

* Jaguar and Mercedes did not fail to qualify for Le Mans with the newer XJR-14 and C291. XJR-14 #4 set the second fastest qualifying time behind a Mercedes C11. The XJR-14 was withdrawn because the team did not feel the Cosworth HB V8s could last 24 hours. Mercedes practiced with a C291 but withdrew it before it could set a qualifying time, again because of worries over the Flat-12s they were running (for good reason, the blocks were bad). Peugeot was forced to run their 905s because they had no older car to fall back on, and Le Mans was still part of the World Sportscar Championship season and hence was a points event. The older XJR-12s and C11s had already been entered before practice even began because of the known reliability issues and the pressing need for the teams to earn points.

* The Jaguar XJR-12 and Mercedes C11 were not obsolete. The XJR-12, with a naturally aspirated V12, debuted at the 1990 24 Hours of Daytona as a more reliable endurance variant to the turbocharged V6 XJR-10 which ran in IMSA and XJR-11 which ran in WSC. The XJR-12 had also won the 1990 24 Hours of Le Mans. The Mercedes C11 debuted in the second round of the WSC in 1990 as well, and in fact was still being run during the three races prior to Le Mans in 1991. The 787 on the other hand also debuted in 1990, running just the JSPC series before the 787B finally entered the World Sportscar Championship in 1991.

* Looking at the rest of the 1991 World Sportscar Championship season, Mazda's next best result outside of Le Mans was a 5th at the Nurburgring (with the 787, not a 787B). They finished the championship in fifth, behind Mercedes, Jaguar, Peugeot AND the privateer Euro Racing team who was running year-old Spice chassis and a Ford Cosworth V8 based on the 1960s DFV. Mazda also finished a mere four points ahead (thanks to their Le Mans win points) of Kremer Racing who was running Porsche 962s which had started life in 1984.

* Yes, reliability did play into the hands of Mazda, but it was not simply the other teams being distracted. Mazda's plan for Le Mans was to designate a rabbit and a tortoise. One car would run as quickly as possible to attempt to get competitors to chas it and break, while the second car would talk a calmer pace to try and survive until the end. It simply happened that Mazda's rabbit, which was not intended to survive, did. Mazda's tortoise ended up where expected after the competitors broke, only five laps behind the leading Jaguar. Mazda used this tactic again in 1992 in the Jaguar-built Judd-engined MXR-01s, and again briefly led the race, but the cars did not last as they had in 1991.

* Rotaries were not banned after Mazda's 1991 win. The 1992 World Sportscar Championship engine regulations had been announced in 1990, requiring everyone to run naturally aspirated engines of 3500 cc, identical to Formula One engines. Mazda's rotary, classified under FIA formulas as a 2.6 liter, obviously would not have been able to compete with 3.5L engines which revved as high if not higher than the R26B rotary. Mazda knew the regulations were coming and 1991 was planned from the start to be the final year for the rotaries. The 787B could have run Le Mans (but not other WSC events) in 1992 under the "C2" class, which Toyota opted to run their older turbocharged 92C-Vs in alongside the "C1" glass TS010s, but Mazda chose instead to concentrate on the 3.5L MXR-01s.

At the same time, Mazda moved to the Camel GT Championship with the RX-792P which also ran the R26B 4-rotor. The cars notoriously caught fire several times because their exhaust could not handle the rotary's heat. The season best was a second at Watkins Glen, five laps behind the Toyota Eagle MkIII which was running a turbocharged 4-cylinder. Mazda withdrew from prototypes after 1992, cancelling the MXR-01 and RX-792Ps together.

After the World Sportscar Championship collapsed at the end of 1992 and Group C and the Camel GTP championship died off in 1994, Mazda entered Kudzu-built LMPs from 1995 to 1997 at Le Mans, with finishes of 7th, 25th (last finisher), and 17th (last finisher), running both a 3-rotor and R26B 4-rotor. In 2002, AutoExe entered a WR LMP with the R26B 4-rotor, which failed after 5 laps.

Mazda's most recent rotary prototypes were the Courage-Mazdas of BK Motorsports in the ALMS from 2005 - 2006 running a production-based 2-rotor. 2005 championship position of third with one "win", claimed by the fact that they were the last LMP2 car to break and not finish, and a 2006 season which saw the team miss half the races because their car was too badly damaged. Mazda cancelled the rotary program and now runs a turbocharged Inline-4 in prototypes in 2007.

Hey, thanks for clearing things up here. Wikipedia has it wrong...

Anyways, by my earlier question, I meant in displacement by the engine in cubic centimetres. Is adding up the displacement of all the rotors too inconsistent?

 

[Metar]

Anyways, by my earlier question, I meant in displacement by the engine in cubic centimetres. Is adding up the displacement of all the rotors too inconsistent?

Measuring displacement isn't the problem. The key is, that Wankel Rotaries (not to be confused with Radial Rotaries) develop incredible hp/litre ratios. A 2.6l Naturally-aspirated machine developing 800HP in 24Hrs trim, that's incredible, and not seen to this date even in F1 (whose engines develop almost-800HP out of 2.4 litres of displacement, but aren't designed to last over 12 hours, counting the engine-goes-from-Saturday-to-next-race). So, it's basically just the way Turbo engines need a different displacement formulae.

 

[superberkut]

Thanks! It was very helpful, and also rather curious.

 

[The359]

There is actually some problem with displacement with a Wankel rotary engine. Measuring displacement on a piston engine means the volume of air/fuel that can be taken into an engine when the piston is down, and multiplying it by each cylinder. All cylinders take in air/fuel in in complete turn (two crankshaft turns).

Rotaries however go through three seperate intakes of air/fuel doing a single rotation of the crankshaft. This therefore leads to the dilemma of <i>should displacement be measured for 1 intake or for all intakes of a rotation?</i>

Most people go by the latter, combining the three intakes to get a displacement for a single rotary. However, because the crank shaft is receiving three inputs in one crank, it is what allows for the large horsepower numbers in terms of the given displacement of the engine. 1 rotary would literally be the equivilant of three pistons, and thus the 4-rotor R26B in the 787B would be the equivilant of 12 pistons, as you'd see in the Jaguars and Mercedes cars at Le Mans.

Because of the nature of rotary engines in terms of their small displacement, governing bodies use formulas to regulate the size of rotary that can be used. The general formula is 1.0 litre of rotary = 1.5 litre of piston, although this varies. Assuming the FIA used the 1.5 formula, the R26B would be equivilant to a 3.9L 12-cylinder engine. This therefore explains why the car was no longer legal in 1992, where a 3.5 litre limit was impossed.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

There is actually some problem with displacement with a Wankel rotary engine. Measuring displacement on a piston engine means the volume of air/fuel that can be taken into an engine when the piston is down, and multiplying it by each cylinder. All cylinders take in air/fuel in in complete turn (two crankshaft turns).

Rotaries however go through three seperate intakes of air/fuel doing a single rotation of the crankshaft. This therefore leads to the dilemma of <i>should displacement be measured for 1 intake or for all intakes of a rotation?</i>

Most people go by the latter, combining the three intakes to get a displacement for a single rotary. However, because the crank shaft is receiving three inputs in one crank, it is what allows for the large horsepower numbers in terms of the given displacement of the engine. 1 rotary would literally be the equivilant of three pistons, and thus the 4-rotor R26B in the 787B would be the equivilant of 12 pistons, as you'd see in the Jaguars and Mercedes cars at Le Mans.

Because of the nature of rotary engines in terms of their small displacement, governing bodies use formulas to regulate the size of rotary that can be used. The general formula is 1.0 litre of rotary = 1.5 litre of piston, although this varies. Assuming the FIA used the 1.5 formula, the R26B would be equivilant to a 3.9L 12-cylinder engine. This therefore explains why the car was no longer legal in 1992, where a 3.5 litre limit was impossed.

Interesting. I did not know that about Rotary size. So is the popular 1.3 liter rotary found in earlier RX7s calculated with one input per crank or 3?

 

[The359]

1 turn of the crank, but three seperate, successive intakes and exhausts of fuel and air, which differs from the piston engines which perform all of those at the same time.

I believe the 1.3 litre 2-rotor used in most RX-7s was from 1 full crank and not just from one intake/exhaust.

 

[GT3 newbie]

Bump, I just finished the S liscence, S7 and S8 were done on the first go ! So easy !

Anyway, finished like the wind in an escudo, an overkill I know, but that Tuscan is a beast ! It was lapping the field easily, even the Zonda and the Arta, gotta get that car sometime ....

Anyway, won the 787B, and speed ? Fantastic. Handling ? Like a dream! My new favorite non-F1 car !

 

[nitrorustler41]

I read the first page, and the 787b is 100% N/A.

do you hear how it chops at idle in real life? thats becuase it is ported so much. wankel engine make power by porting, the more aggressive, the more power, and choppier sounding.


also, the rotary engine has litterally no redline, becuase it has no reciprocating parts. you adjust the pwerband by flow characteristics.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Bump, I just finished the S liscence, S7 and S8 were done on the first go ! So easy !

Eyah, they're not too bad.

Anyway, finished like the wind in an escudo, an overkill I know, but that Tuscan is a beast ! It was lapping the field easily, even the Zonda and the Arta, gotta get that car sometime ....

Like the Wind sucks. I was really disappointed with this race. Even tho it's at the Test Course, I was kinda expecting it to be cool because I'd be going really fast. But halfway thru the damn race...all the stupid GT1s start taking pit stops! WTF? And their tranny tuning isn't played with at all..so the Mazda 787B tops off early, and the TSO20 can't make it any faster than 250-ish mph! 👎 Yeah, like I said...a real disappointment.



...off topic but I can't believe you're still a "New" GTP member after all this time!

 

[superberkut]

If I recall, the R390 GT1 tops something like 250mph... and the GT-One does not go very far past 240mph. The Speed 12 hits 219mph, and, given a strong slipstream, the Skyline GT-R V-Spec can reach 231mph. Of course, after a pit stop, the limit is 170mph...

It kind of saddens me to see the Zonda wheezing along at 143mph.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

If I recall, the R390 GT1 tops something like 250mph... and the GT-One does not go very far past 240mph. The Speed 12 hits 219mph, and, given a strong slipstream, the Skyline GT-R V-Spec can reach 231mph. Of course, after a pit stop, the limit is 170mph...

It kind of saddens me to see the Zonda wheezing along at 143mph.

Yah I know. 👎 Like The Wind is like one of the worst races in my opinion. The Dream Car races (especially the Amateur ones) follow a close 2nd. 👎 All this great racing...and then the Ai starts taking pitstops because they've been shod with the wrong tires. 👎

 

[killer450235]

And the enduros are easy because of this.The fastest car in the Seattle 100mile race(Cobra) pitted every 2 laps

 

[superberkut]

Eh, '60s muscle. But, that is true. I think I managed to get 5 laps out of a Cobra when I entered that race in one, but keep in mind that the Cobra is not a strong car in corners; it uses soft tires (I think R4s).

 

[killer450235]

The Cobra eats tires no matter what.But on R4's....

 

[Colinod]

Wow. This thread is still alive. I wish it would get deleted, I was such a noob back then. I just barely turned on Gran Turismo 4 again, and yep, the 787B is amazing in there too. (I have the used black one) Perfect handling, not so fast it's not fun (Maybe a little, but it's still the 787B, not an F1) 15 years old in the game still mops the floor with the likes of the R8 and the like.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Wow. This thread is still alive. I wish it would get deleted, I was such a noob back then.

Now why on earth would you wish this? Every one of us was a nOOb at some point! Don't worry about it!

 

[superberkut]

Agreed.

Interestingly, the sister car of the 1991 Le Mans winner was painted to resemble its sibling, because Mazda did not want the winner raced at historic events afterwards. A bit of a strange policy, but understandable if no prototypes remained.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Agreed.

Interestingly, the sister car of the 1991 Le Mans winner was painted to resemble its sibling, because Mazda did not want the winner raced at historic events afterwards. A bit of a strange policy, but understandable if no prototypes remained.

Interesting.

I just read this entire thread...it goes in so many directions..a lot of info being discussed (along with disagreements, but hey...that's part of the forums). It's a good read. Don't close it!

 

[JohnBM01]

I could remember getting the 787B either in Simulation Mode or in Arcade. This car is absolutely killer. Before I got some F1 cars, the 787B is the fastest and most capable car. No wonder this car won Le Mans in 1991. That high-pitched whine can be a bit raspy, but you'll see trees zooming by as well as city buildings when you race this thing. It's absolutely fast. If you get this car in the game, smile and smile big. You got a wicked fast car. Only wicked fast car that isn't the Toyota GT-One or any F1 car.