$80 Million and going backwards

[jagjet]

Hello All

First Let me say I love this game. I want to see the game improve. I will help improve this game ,if allowed.

So as to put this in context, I train in multi million dollar jet aircraft simulators for currency in type (FAA,CAA requirement). I have been responsible for thousands of lives in air transport. So simulation is a serious tool to me. And a great deal of satisfaction in doing something well and precisely. Yeah , yeah who cares!

GT5 is not a simulator nor is it an arcade game either. It has shown massive potential, but now it's time to sort it out. I have spent massive amounts of time tuning and testing and advancing though this game. Now in one update all my hard work is made useless. The tire model is seriously flawed. As an example the current Michelin used by the leading LMP1 cars at Le Mans at night can be quadruple stinted between driver changes. Triple stinted during the day. The new soft racing compound is good for 2-3 laps at Le Mans in regular game usage. One way to fix this is to offer endurance compounds that can deliver proper mileage and with proper managment deliver even performance. If this model stands it will kill off the title and maybe the franchise. Fix it ,Fix it Now! Don't encourage 3 lap bracket racing or it will become a fast trip to Arcade status.

It appears to me that there are serious cultral differences between the Japanese designers and the games' devotees. There is much in the Japanese culture of which much pride can be taken. I offer no racial or cultural spin in these comments. What I would suggest is a balanced approach to the future of additional cars and tracks. Is it possible that we have seen and purchased enough versions of Miatas,GT-Rs,Skylines and S series Hondas from the 60's? Japan has become a force in world auto production and that has its place. Why haven't truly historic and groundbreaking cars like the Shelby Daytona Coupe, Jaguar C and D-type, Porsche 917 & 550and Howmet Turbine Car found their way into our garage? I know some of it has to do with the rights to these, but seriously those who don't realise the future sales potential of this game will be left behind anyway. Why haven't Brands Hatch, Silverstone, Virginia International Raceway, Road America & Atlanta, Brno, Reims, Oultan Park, Adelaide,Long Beach, just to name a few made it to our track choices?

Give us better telemetry with acccurate CG and corner weights. Give us a tire temp representation that shows 3 temps Outer middler and inner so as to make good camber decisions.

I have been recently driving iRacing and there is much to love and some that is Draconian in nature. Please revisit the penalty logic as it is often inconsistent and harsh with regard to corner cutting and car to car contact. iRacing has a new tire model and it is very close in terms of feel and wear. Their collision and off track penalties are also very vague and inconsistent. The upgrades to new driving classification is based on a too cumbersome a statistical. I have enjoyed some good competition but they suffer from the same problem with all on line gaming and that is if you have had to fix yourself, pay to fix it or spend any time recoving from a racing accident you don't understand the consequences of poor or no decision making. Virtual Johnny Hot Shoe still pushes through when there is no opportunity or reasonable chance for success.

I have many more ideas about improving this title and if anyone who has a say is interested I'm easily found.

What's your 2 pence?

Robert Phelps
PSNID jagjet

 

[albteman015]

All this would be incredible to have. Just one problem. Most of the people that play this game have no idea how tire temperature affects camber setup. Most of my friends picked this game up partly because of how much I talk about it and partly because they do enjoy cars. But they are not mechanics and engineers. Sure you could argue that maybe they could be influenced by what the game teaches you but teenagers being the largest market for this game have no interested in all that and they want cars that look cool ,sound mean and go fast. Majority do not care or have no idea how to bring them to that point. I think you should try rfactor2. It seems to be more your cup of tea.

 

[tribolik]

All this would be incredible to have. Just one problem. Most of the people that play this game have no idea how tire temperature affects camber setup. Most of my friends picked this game up partly because of how much I talk about it and partly because they do enjoy cars. But they are not mechanics and engineers. Sure you could argue that maybe they could be influenced by what the game teaches you but teenagers being the largest market for this game have no interested in all that and they want cars that look cool ,sound mean and go fast. Majority do not care or have no idea how to bring them to that point. I think you should try rfactor2. It seems to be more your cup of tea.

I think you should try Need for speed. It seems to be more your cup of tea.

He is talking about opitions... if you want to play the game without resorting to tunning you can... Im sure many have allready platinum the game without tunning a single car.

But the OP missed an important and most basic issue that lacks in the game and shows just how basic the tyre model is - tyre pressure - the most basic aspect of tunning that can be aplied to every day car and change handling, fuel economy, speed, acelaration, tyre wear, etc, etc

I could not beleave that we couldnt adjust tyre pressure in the «Real driving simulator»

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

To many people are un-aware of Real World Tire wear.. It won't hurt the franchise..
good write up none the less.

 

[albteman015]

I think you should try Need for speed. It seems to be more your cup of tea.

He is talking about opitions... if you want to play the game without resorting to tunning you can... Im sure many have allready platinum the game without tunning a single car.

But the OP missed an important and most basic issue that lacks in the game and shows just how basic the tyre model is - tyre pressure - the most basic aspect of tunning that can be aplied to every day car and change handling, fuel economy, speed, acelaration, tyre wear, etc, etc

I could not beleave that we couldnt adjust tyre pressure in the «Real driving simulator»

Did I say I say I do not tune cars in the game? I do tune cars and enjoy it. The average player does not know how though and most of them just don't bother trying like those friends of mine. You can't expect a game that has to appeal to many different people to have tuning that detailed. I have a friend who is an excellent mechanic but still does not touch the setting in the game. I play rfactor and lfs but I no longer have a wheel. GT5 Is good for what it is.

In a perfect world there would be a sim out there good enough for everyone.

 

[GTPM118]

I partially agree with you pal, but... there is a HUGE diferrences regarging hardware specs.
PS3 have some issues with memory, its to small to fit everything there. you can blame sony for that. Regardless of that as far as I see, IRacing give more to the physics rather than Graphics, of course maybe their physics engine have the size of... 200Mb? 150mb? More than PS3 could handle.


As everyone knows, PD give also a huge amount of time to the graphics department, next gen console, hd graphics and all that stuff.

Maybe PD is still working on a better, more complex (more complete) physics engine, with new specs (PS4)

Dont b to harsh with them, during all this time PD had been working on it. Not perfect, but still a good quality.

I praise the time iRacing give to its product, that is what make it so special within racing fans, not for its visual quality.

But yes.. GT5 could be even a better product. for its developing cost... maybe the Licence fees? and the cost of a new building? investing on online servers? I believe PD re-do its way of working for the new gen of GT.

Edit: I have a question pal, wich improvements or ideas do you have? It would nice, maybe PD could hear us:idea:

 

[diegorborges]

Good points you stated man. Nice post!

I think we're on the right path. If you compare GT5 to GT4 for example, the leap was enormous in the game engine and physics itself. From GT5 1.00 to Spec 2.0 we already saw another huge improvement, so what we can do is to give these kind of good and detailed feedback to PD, and hope they continue improving doing their best that is possible on the PS3 old hardware. Hardware limitation is a reality for GT5 unfortunately and they already did amazing stuff with it. GT5 lighting system its the best I've ever seen in a game.

I think that threads like this is what they will read to collect feedback.

Hooray for constructive criticism!

 

[Cowboys965]

I think the new wear is too bad, pre-patch was best I think. I mean, I don't wanna have to drive 2 hours to make 1 stop.

 

[Stephen220378]

Good ideas but it won't happen, Gran Turismo is a game which bridges the gap between arcade and sim and that's the way it will remain, I doubt Sony would even let PD turn GT games into all out simulators because it's quite simply bad for sales.

 

[diegorborges]

And just to add something to what I've said above, you got good points, but the thread title is wrong and unfair. We aren't going backwards... definitely, forward. Always.

 

[another_jakhole]

Did I say I say I do not tune cars in the game? I do tune cars and enjoy it. The average player does not know how though and most of them just don't bother trying like those friends of mine. You can't expect a game that has to appeal to many different people to have tuning that detailed. I have a friend who is an excellent mechanic but still does not touch the setting in the game. I play rfactor and lfs but I no longer have a wheel. GT5 Is good for what it is.

In a perfect world there would be a sim out there good enough for everyone.

Accessibility is the main reason why GT5 isn't the "Ultimate" Driving Simulator.

Tribolik
"I could not beleave that we couldnt adjust tyre pressure in the «Real driving simulator»"
GT2 wasn't the Real Driving Simulator? Shoooot.
Blame the "noobs", tribolik. Did you not know that accessibility is one of the reasons why GT5 is held back in terms of being more of a serious racing simulator? Honestly, though.

OP
"Is it possible that we have seen and purchased enough versions of Miatas,GT-Rs,Skylines and S series Hondas from the 60's?"
Thing is, they aren't all premium. If they were, I think, then it would be a problem. Kaz has acknowledged that there are too many duplicates/variations of those cars in the game. He literally said the standards are bonus, meaning it couldn't have been all that difficult. The car's are graphically ported, not a big time-waster, and were touched up a bit for GT5. Plus, they're from previous games. Not exactly on-topic, but it's a point that should be brought up.

 

[GTPM118]

👍

Good points you stated man. Nice post!

I think we're on the right path. If you compare GT5 to GT4 for example, the leap was enormous in the game engine and physics itself. From GT5 1.00 to Spec 2.0 we already saw another huge improvement, so what we can do is to give these kind of good and detailed feedback to PD, and hope they continue improving doing their best that is possible on the PS3 old hardware. Hardware limitation is a reality for GT5 unfortunately and they already did amazing stuff with it. GT5 lighting system its the best I've ever seen in a game.

I think that threads like this is what they will read to collect feedback.

Hooray for constructive criticism!

 

[AnPrionsaBeag]

As far as tyre wear is concerned, perhaps the solution would be to set tyre life as a fixed percentage of the total number of laps in a race and make it last as much as it does in real life when in practice mode with unlimited laps. In other words, a set of x tyres that'd last x laps in a 3-lap race would last twice longer in a 6-lap race and a fixed number of laps in practice mode.

 

[GTPM118]

As far as tyre wear is concerned, perhaps the solution would be to set tyre life as a fixed percentage of the total number of laps in a race and make it last as much as it does in real life when in practice mode with unlimited laps. In other words, a set of x tyres that'd last x laps in a 3-lap race would last twice longer in a 6-lap race and a fixed number of laps in practice mode.

Or maybe... change the "x" in the ecuation again to make it last longer.. and not make it a "static" wearing

 

[GTPM118]

And just to add something to what I've said above, you got good points, but the thread title is wrong and unfair. We aren't going backwards... definitely, forward. Always.

Completely agree pal. This thread could become into a constructive one... 💡

 

[Short Bus]

I know how to tune suspensions..... but I don't generally bother to because doing it *right* is a massive chore. I don't mind that some aspects of this game have been dumbed down a bit.

 

[Corpsey]

The tire model is purposely flawed imo because the pit changes are faster.. if they fix the tires they need to fix the pit changes. If you want a better race sim rFactor2 is probably the way to go..

 

[ScouserInExile]

GT5 is not a simulator nor is it an arcade game either.

You may as well have stopped typing at this point. The GT series had a very broad target demographic because it very nicely straddles that line between arcade game and racing sim and that is why it sells so well and is why it doesn't include more hardcore features, like more accurate tyre wear modelling.

GT5 had sold millions and millions of copies and you will find that there are only a few thousand gamers who would want that level of detail and tuning options. Maybe, at most, one out of every thousand potential GT buyers want the game to be like that.

So, if you were PD, what would you do? Target the game at a few thousand people or a few million?

 

[research]

This warrants repeating: Options Options Options.

Ship the game with default settings that cater towards the millions, but give us simulation guys (and I'm POSITIVE we number a bit greater than just a few thousand) plenty of options like jagjet stated, along with tire pressure. I mean.... is that REALLY too hardcore? No way.


How many copies has NFS Shift 2 sold compared to GT5? That should give us a small hint about the true demographic of the virtual racing world.

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

I agree with the OP.
It is time to take the GT franchise to the next level of simulation. PD have done fantastic work this year moving the game in what I feel is the right direction.
I can only hope the tire model will be improved in GT6.

Man, what I would give to spend a week at Polyphonys office as a silent observer.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Hardcore sims do not sell on consoles. Games like call of duty sell. PD can't go too hardcore because for some reason people this generation get intimidated by tough games. I would love tire pressures, but PD has more gameplay issues at hand (tire wear rate) they should get on top of. Besides, tire pressures sounds like the physics engine may need noticeable upgrades to pull off. If PD didn't include it, it has to go beyond than just they didn't want to do it.

 

[GTPM118]

I have a good idea, GT4 was ok, GT5 still much better, GT6 near "perfection"
What I want to point out, what IF....PD is training us, to become racing drivers?
Improving their physics engine according to the user learning curve:idea:

Kaz stated several times something about an RPG? ( correct me if I'm wrong)
a Real Racing Driver Simulator? using us as their "Bobs"?

Just kidding, but seriously... they could be training us... GT Academy could be an example for that.
Mayeb GT6 is something closer to REAL RREAL PHYSICS

 

[OK8]

I've been playing games most people would consider hardcore simulators for a long time before gt5 came out. At first I was suspicious, thinking could I get the same level of enjoyment from this game, but gt5 makes up for the slight lacks in realism (tyre model) with other things. I mean in Live For Speed the physics are modeled better, but in it you can't take a period Le Mans race car around Sarthe with time and weather.

Gt5 is realistic in a different way, and with the right tyres it's challenging in a fun way. Sure in my daydreams I hoped it would have the graphics it has, the amount of cars and tracks it has, combined with physics from Live For Speed (and Richard Burns Rally for the rally tracks) but as the game is now, I'm content. Sure I'd like to have more adjustment and more accurate tyre temperature measurement (right now I don't really know of a proper way of setting camber. In LFS I just used to look at the temperatures and adjust accordingly) and I sure hope we'll get them in GT6.

And to the people who say GT5 wouldn't sell if it had these features, I doubt it. Even know there's a multitude of driving aids to make the game easier and even without aids driving the most difficult cars is still possible using a ds3. The people who don't understand a thing about car settings could just leave them as they are.

 

[RUstAuSi]

Is it just me or are there loads of threads exactly like this? People complaining about GT5's tyre wear and small flaws and ways to improve it etc.

 

[shirakawaa]

Hardcore sims do not sell on consoles. Games like call of duty sell. PD can't go too hardcore because for some reason people this generation get intimidated by tough games. I would love tire pressures, but PD has more gameplay issues at hand (tire wear rate) they should get on top of. Besides, tire pressures sounds like the physics engine may need noticeable upgrades to pull off. If PD didn't include it, it has to go beyond than just they didn't want to do it.

As said by others, they could include options to "unlock" the "hardcore settings" for tuning and realism, and leave default settings suitable for the masses.

 

[Spagetti69]

What hardcore racing game failed on PS3? I can't remember.

 

[albteman015]

The only way we are going to see a massive improvement in physics is if the consoles perform much better. What they are working with now is very limiting.

 

[Short Bus]

The only way we are going to see a massive improvement in physics is if the consoles perform much better. What they are working with now is very limiting.

I'm not terribly sure about that. NASCAR 2003, by some, is still considered to be *the* NASCAR sim to use when it comes to physics and modeling accuracy. Surely the PS3's hardware is capable of that.

I think the main limitation is the way in which they handle peer to peer sessions. The cars don't feel quite right in online play, so perhaps that's the limiting factor at the moment.

 

[albteman015]

I'm not terribly sure about that. NASCAR 2003, by some, is still considered to be *the* NASCAR sim to use when it comes to physics and modeling accuracy. Surely the PS3's hardware is capable of that.

I think the main limitation is the way in which they handle peer to peer sessions. The cars don't feel quite right in online play, so perhaps that's the limiting factor at the moment.

I don't know that much about NASCAR 2003. Someone I know had it on pc so I assume it is not a console game?

 

[Short Bus]

I don't know that much about NASCAR 2003. Someone I know had it on pc so I assume it is not a console game?

Nope, it's a PC game... but I'm just thinking that the PS3 was released in 2006, so I would think that it likely has the computing power to handle a better physics engine.

I'm only speculating though. But I do tend to agree with those who say that a *true* hardcore sim wouldn't be all that successful, because essentially you'd shut out everybody who doesn't have a wheel/pedal setup. Try playing iRacing with a game-pad and see for yourself, it's ridiculously difficult.