A little Experiment...

[Stotty]

I disagree, its not subtle at all i felt immediately something very strange going on. I havent played any of the career in AC but i have been playing almost every sim out there for the last 8 years, always without assist.

'Something very strange going on' is not exactly helpful, insightful, or building on the analysis/discussion here.

Specifically, how did you feel it affected the way the car behaved?

 

[Shottah072]

'Something very strange going on' is not exactly helpful, insightful, or building on the analysis/discussion here.

Specifically, how did you feel it affected the way the car behaved?

I find hard to describe as it is about feel and english is not my native language but i'll try.

Without CSA coming out of a corner you have to apply throttle according to wheel lock. Less wheel lock more throttle. If u apply to much throttle for the amount of wheel lock the back steps out and you have to correct with countersteer. Now even before the back will step out the FFB will tell you you are reaching the limit by getting lighter. To go fast u have to balance it right at that point where it is about to get light and correct it with some countersteer if u actually go beyond that point.

With CSA on, when u reach that limit or actually go beyond it i feel this. The FFB will get lighter as normal when reaching the limit, you get that same innitial feel. But then when u go over the limit you would expect the FFB of the wheel to go even lighter and having to countersteer. This doesnt happen with CSA on. What happens is you feel the wheel go light indicating your on the limit like normal but then when u go over it doesnt go lighter but comes back strong as if u suddenly regained grip. When driving on or just passed the limit you can feel the grip switchin on and off trough the FFB without yourself correcting anything. The wheel goes light strong light strong light strong. Scrubbing some speed while doing this.

Now this effect might be subtle if you dont have allot of experience driving cars on the limit with FFB wheels. But when you do have the experience of that and are expecting the wheel to go light and having to counter steer and all of sudden u dont, it is very noticeable imo.

 

[Stotty]

I find hard to describe as it is about feel and english is not my native language but i'll try.

Without CSA coming out of a corner you have to apply throttle according to wheel lock. Less wheel lock more throttle. If u apply to much throttle for the amount of wheel lock the back steps out and you have to correct with countersteer. Now even before the back will step out the FFB will tell you you are reaching the limit by getting lighter. To go fast u have to balance it right at that point where it is about to get light and correct it with some countersteer if u actually go beyond that point.

With CSA on, when u reach that limit or actually go beyond it i feel this. The FFB will get lighter as normal when reaching the limit, you get that same innitial feel. But then when u go over the limit you would expect the FFB of the wheel to go even lighter and having to countersteer. This doesnt happen with CSA on. What happens is you feel the wheel go light indicating your on the limit like normal but then when u go over it doesnt go lighter but comes back strong as if u suddenly regained grip. When driving on or just passed the limit you can feel the grip switchin on and off trough the FFB without yourself correcting anything. The wheel goes light strong light strong light strong. Scrubbing some speed while doing this.

Now this effect might be subtle if you dont have allot of experience driving cars on the limit with FFB wheels. But when you do have the experience of that and are expecting the wheel to go light and having to counter steer and all of sudden u dont, it is very noticeable imo.

Your English is absolutely fine 👍

I know what you're referring to... to me this doesn't feel unnatural... this feels like my car does when I get to the limit, rather than how games feel... right at the moment the rear tyres start to lose grip the steering loses weight, and as the rear starts to slide the steering wants to counter steer naturally s a reaction to the suspension geometry.

I've been using wheels in driving games for >10 years 👍

 

[Shottah072]

Your English is absolutely fine 👍

I know what you're referring to... to me this doesn't feel unnatural... this feels like my car does when I get to the limit, rather than how games feel... right at the moment the rear tyres start to lose grip the steering loses weight, and as the rear starts to slide the steering wants to counter steer naturally s a reaction to the suspension geometry.

I've been using wheels in driving games for >10 years 👍

It is correct that the wheel naturally wants to counter steer, and i think that is simulated correct by the wheel going light and wanting to countersteer on its own. But in RL and in other games where there is no CSA if u dont catch that momentum you are going off spinnin where as with CSA it will be caught for you by the game. Like i said the innitial feel where you are reffering to is still there and seems correct. What is not correct is that the game then reacts to that feel on its own by countersteering and bringin it back in line giving you that grip on grip off effect in the FFB while you are doing nothing with the wheel to resemble that.

Also you said you have been runnin CSA in previous GT titles. Maybe after using it so long it has become natural to you ?

 

[Stotty]

It is correct that the wheel naturally wants to counter steer, and i think that is simulated correct by the wheel going light and wanting to countersteer on its own. But in RL and in other games where there is no CSA if u dont catch that momentum you are going off spinnin where as with CSA it will be caught for you by the game. Like i said the innitial feel where you are reffering to is still there and seems correct. What is not correct is that the game then reacts to that feel on its own by countersteering and bringin it back in line giving you that grip on grip off effect in the FFB while you are doing nothing with the wheel to resemble that.

I guess that's why it's called counter steer assist, but I wasn't abusing it to that extent...

If you drive right up to the point just before it starts to correct for you, but not over it, it still offers a speed advantage IMO... it allows you to use more throttle for a given steering angle.

 

[Shottah072]

I guess that's why it's called counter steer assist, but I wasn't abusing it to that extent...

If you drive right up to the point just before it starts to correct for you, but not over it, it still offers a speed advantage IMO... it allows you to use more throttle for a given steering angle.

I meant incorrect physics and drivin wise, off course thats what it is designed to do as counter steer assist. I'm just trying to go a little more in depth of what the CSA is actually doing and how that reflects in the driving and FFB and explain why it felt so strange to me driving with it. Now i havent tested it all that much yet, maybe if i adjust tunes and driving style to it i could gain some time i am not sure yet. But i doubt i will as i personally just did not like the feel of it. Without it i can get within 1-1.5 sec of top10 times but i feel like that time can still be gained on track, without the need for CSA. If top10 players or any players want to use it thats fine its their choice offcourse but i dont feel its necesarry to use it to get to top10.

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

I guess that's why it's called counter steer assist, but I wasn't abusing it to that extent...

If you drive right up to the point just before it starts to correct for you, but not over it, it still offers a speed advantage IMO... it allows you to use more throttle for a given steering angle.

Agreed on this point... especially in events with lower than Race tyres. SH really showed it off in my opinion. I gave it a go to satisfy my curiosity about the subject, and it did help. Being in control is always faster, and this aid definitely helps in the control aspect.

Cheers

 

[Mr P]

Sorry not so much testing for me as I got sidetracked chasing down 1st place and forgot to try the event with the countersteer on anyway will try tonight after some food.. for now I scraped 1st in EU with no assists and can't wait to try with countersteer on as I'm pretty much dialed in with this track now 👍



I reckon even without countersteer a very low 2'17 is doable on this event.. but it wont be me getting it 👍

 

[Mr P]

I just had some laps with the countersteer on and I had to exit before the end section twice as I didn't want to beat my lap with the assists on

Ok my view is similar to most tbh, This countersteer assist is pretty much like Active Steering from GT6 as it gives more grip and lets you floor it more through the tighter turns which will make up the difference on a combo like this!
My ghost from the lap with no assists is faster everywhere at the beginning of the track by about .1 of a second so I just follow it until the end section... and then this assist comes into play in the tight last section where it's much easier to slow the car and flick through the final tight turns.. overall it will get a better laptime here but not by much probably about .2-.5 of a second but on a course with no tight sections I am pretty sure the non assist lap will be much faster due to the overall speed the car can muster, The extra grip seems to come at a cost and I think it loses about 1-2 mph on the speedo just crossing the start line with the countersteer on.

Anyway will try some other tests in the next few days in other cars at other tracks and my apologies that I have no lap to show with the assist on as I didn't want my non-assist time knocking off the board and it definitely would have 👍

Cheers guys

 

[Mr P]

Another test with a significant difference in laptime this one..

Gr.3 Viper @ Dragon Trail with counter steer 1.37.1


Gr.3 Viper @ Dragon Trail no assists 1.38.4


Some cars work better with assists than others seems about correct to say 👍

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Sorry not so much testing for me as I got sidetracked chasing down 1st place and forgot to try the event with the countersteer on anyway will try tonight after some food.. for now I scraped 1st in EU with no assists and can't wait to try with countersteer on as I'm pretty much dialed in with this track now 👍



I reckon even without countersteer a very low 2'17 is doable on this event.. but it wont be me getting it 👍

Cool that you keep on working on that - great examples.
Alsace seems to be a great practice lap for me ... stock TT or BoPped ?
Cheers, RJ.

Edit :
Got it ... discovered the title 👍.

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

So it seems cars with more prevalent overseer characteristics are slightly faster with CSA on, while the different end of the spectrum has opposite results, correct?

 

[Finflash]

What would be the difference with free tuning?

I noticed some gain also with controller but the feeling is not so great with it and not fun to drive. At least for me hard to get most out of the car, well I'm not a pro. There are some cases when the car won't go where I'd like it to go, probably because I use controller and I don't get the feedback I need.

 

[Adrenaline]

I haven't done any tests, but based on what I'm reading, seeing, and hearing, people are going about this the wrong way.

If you turn this aid on, and drive the car the same way you normally would, then you aren't exploiting it. The reason some cars benefit and others don't in your tests is due to natural car characteristics that promote activation of the aid.

Does anyone remember Skid Force Reduction in GT5? If you turn it on and run your normal line, with your normal brake points, and normal acceleration points, you barely ever activated it or even noticed it. In fact it might even slow you down because it felt like induced understeer. But when you exploited the aid, there were massive time gains to be had, even by aliens.

How do you exploit an aid that stabilizes the car you ask? You tune it to be as loose as possible within reason. You drive deeper in the corner, crank the wheel sharper then you normally would (I mean a lot, normally I don't go past 90 degrees on my wheel, but with srf I was getting to 180 and beyond at times) and when you feel understeer, instead of letting off the throttle like normal, you stab the gas to spin the rear tires and attempt to generate some snap oversteer. But the game helps stabilize and prevent the car from spinning. You now have the car pitched into the corner, pointed at your exit, and accelerate out earlier and harder, knowing the game is going to save you.

Again, SRF was extreme, I pray Oversteer assist isn't like that, and I repeat I haven't tried it yet. My point is that, you don't tune the same way, and drive the same way, and hope to find this assist shaving seconds off your lap.

You want to purposely force the most amount of Oversteer into your car that you can barely handle, and then alter every timing mark you've learned, and override every instinct you have on the track. You have to reprogram yourself to be a completely different driver.

The best way to visualize it, is to imagine the most controlled, and smallest drift possible through an entire corner. Adding the security of being able to be heavy footed and not lose the rear end.

Think of the times you over drive into a corner, and the rear end slides out just a tiny bit and the nose stays pointed at the perfect apex, and you think, man if I just held that it coulda been a badass corner! Ever had one of those? Now imagine you could recreate that in every corner, and instead of your natural countersteer instincts, you had the confidence, to keep the car turned in, and intead accelerated through the apex and could carry your speed down the straight.

THAT is how you exploit something like this. A clean lap, that never activates the Oversteer assist, isn't how you make use of the aid. Basically you need to purposely make a mistake in every corner, so that you're using the assist at every opportunity, allowing it to control your car via a computer, with perfect inputs.

Warning: This creates terrible driving habits, has no real world application, and removes any realism the game may have had.

The 4C Gr.4 car would be my first place to start. I drove it for the first time last night in the FIA thing, and it was fast, but unstable. If I had an assist to lean on each corner entry, and to catch me on every corner exit, I assume you could save quite a bit of time.

I don't think any of these aids should be allowed in Sport Mode.

 

[wallpaper42]

Very nice comparison. Now I want to see manual vs auto transmission.

 

[Stotty]

I haven't done any tests, but based on what I'm reading, seeing, and hearing, people are going about this the wrong way.

If you turn this aid on, and drive the car the same way you normally would, then you aren't exploiting it. The reason some cars benefit and others don't in your tests is due to natural car characteristics that promote activation of the aid.

Does anyone remember Skid Force Reduction in GT5? If you turn it on and run your normal line, with your normal brake points, and normal acceleration points, you barely ever activated it or even noticed it. In fact it might even slow you down because it felt like induced understeer. But when you exploited the aid, there were massive time gains to be had, even by aliens.

How do you exploit an aid that stabilizes the car you ask? You tune it to be as loose as possible within reason. You drive deeper in the corner, crank the wheel sharper then you normally would (I mean a lot, normally I don't go past 90 degrees on my wheel, but with srf I was getting to 180 and beyond at times) and when you feel understeer, instead of letting off the throttle like normal, you stab the gas to spin the rear tires and attempt to generate some snap oversteer. But the game helps stabilize and prevent the car from spinning. You now have the car pitched into the corner, pointed at your exit, and accelerate out earlier and harder, knowing the game is going to save you.

Again, SRF was extreme, I pray Oversteer assist isn't like that, and I repeat I haven't tried it yet. My point is that, you don't tune the same way, and drive the same way, and hope to find this assist shaving seconds off your lap.

You want to purposely force the most amount of Oversteer into your car that you can barely handle, and then alter every timing mark you've learned, and override every instinct you have on the track. You have to reprogram yourself to be a completely different driver.

The best way to visualize it, is to imagine the most controlled, and smallest drift possible through an entire corner. Adding the security of being able to be heavy footed and not lose the rear end.

Think of the times you over drive into a corner, and the rear end slides out just a tiny bit and the nose stays pointed at the perfect apex, and you think, man if I just held that it coulda been a badass corner! Ever had one of those? Now imagine you could recreate that in every corner, and instead of your natural countersteer instincts, you had the confidence, to keep the car turned in, and intead accelerated through the apex and could carry your speed down the straight.

THAT is how you exploit something like this. A clean lap, that never activates the Oversteer assist, isn't how you make use of the aid. Basically you need to purposely make a mistake in every corner, so that you're using the assist at every opportunity, allowing it to control your car via a computer, with perfect inputs.

Warning: This creates terrible driving habits, has no real world application, and removes any realism the game may have had.

The 4C Gr.4 car would be my first place to start. I drove it for the first time last night in the FIA thing, and it was fast, but unstable. If I had an assist to lean on each corner entry, and to catch me on every corner exit, I assume you could save quite a bit of time.

I don't think any of these aids should be allowed in Sport Mode.

Maybe test for yourself before posting.

You can't use CSA like SRF. If you try that you will spin. It doesn't increase the amount if grip the tyres have, but it does give you a slightly wider margin for error when getting on the gas.

 

[PJTierney]

I'm guessing the majority of posters here are wheel users.

Can anyone with DS4 experience tell me if CSA is one of those assists that definitely makes you faster/slower?

I've had it on since launch as catching slides was almost impossible at launch and simply haven't bothered to change it since Friday's update. I'm also not consistent enough with Gran Turismo Sport yet to do qualitative analysis on my own.

 

[Mr P]

THAT is how you exploit something like this. A clean lap, that never activates the Oversteer assist, isn't how you make use of the aid. Basically you need to purposely make a mistake in every corner, so that you're using the assist at every opportunity, allowing it to control your car via a computer, with perfect inputs.

My tests were simply that I wanted to see if having the CSA assist on would it produce a faster laptime than using no assists.. I had no real interest in pushing the car beyond its limits in the turns and seeing if the countersteer would save my ass! It was all about which one was the fastest at the finish line and to do that I had to drive both laps fast and smooth with the best lines I could for speed 👍

Someone else can maybe do a 'can I drift with countersteer enabled' test thread

Very nice comparison. Now I want to see manual vs auto transmission.

No need..It's going to be Manual fastest every time 👍

 

[ROCKET JOE]

@Adrenaline
I think you actually made a point here.
I've been burned by SRF in the GT6 lifetime ( just take a look at my signature ) - I loved QM racing and had to deal with SRF users for two years. You're right, to get the most out of it, you needed some 'special' driving. You could detect the hardcore users by the way they turned in alone.
I'm quite sure CSA won't be the new SRF, they really have a different nature and we shouldn't state anything without having tests. I'm a bit afraid though nobody will do this 'dirty job' except those who maybe plan to exploit CSA to the max.

@PJTierney
I'm on DS4 and up to now I'd say @Mr P 's results transfer quite fine to controller driving.
If you stay with your standard driving style the benefit depends on car, track, etc.

 

[R3V]

Try it with the Alfa Romeo GR4

 

[Stotty]

I've been using it on occasion on line. And I've also seen a few race replays from some of the very fastest drivers in the world using it whilst racing on line.

As I've said, I don't think it gives any extra grip, just acts like a very effective traction control - it won't protect big errors, but if your throttle control is already preset decent, it gives you an extra layer of protection.