A Vector tuning theory for drift cars

  • Thread starter GhostZ
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Blatant arrogance grinds my gears

Same here, and I agree with most of your questions. A 350Z premium has more grip than a Nissan 200SX standard car. It just has to do with width of the rear tires. Which is, imo, the biggest factor to speed while drifting in GT5. Nothing else, and I don't need calculations to prove that point.
 
Blatant arrogance grinds my gears

Maybe so, but it's a game. I don't understand why you would actually want to spend all this time figuring out a setup. Slap a few numbers on and drift. The game doesn't even have proper settings for suspension either so you are ridiculously limited.
 
Different cars will have different levels of lateral grip based on the tune. He tested a specific car. Those numbers won't be the same for all cars. And if tyre compound is a simple result of a grip multiplier then certain forumulas to find certain settings(camber and toe) be thrown off? What is the width of the tyre model in GT5?

This is why I don't think you understand my post(s). The question of GT5 G force measurements has been covered quite a few times before, and even then, what you're questioning is extremely obviously given within the game. Since its easy to find for a single car, then it should be just as easy to find for another, or another tune. This doesn't really have anything to do with the Vector Model for this thread, and if you wanted to use it, GT5 gives you explicit measurements. I'm very certain that this was covered in other threads that you commented on also, and the fact hasn't changed since then.

In other words, I would only want tire width and suspension configuration (the thing you say is so hard to measure) so that can try to figure out G readings. And yes, if that were the case, it would be difficult and probably inaccurate.

Well, GT5 gives me G readings, and accurate ones, without doing all that. Problem solved, without jumping to conclusions.

This particular thread is about using a path and G readings to figure out max possible speed, and using the path and size of the car to figure out toe and camber angles. I do not need to know tire width.

Now, can I find the G ratings of some theoretical not-in-the-game tire? No. I need to be able to measure it in the game, which I do. From speed, G, and CoM measurements you can get a good idea of instantaneous weight distribution, but like Bread_82 mentioned (and his test is exactly like the one I originally did a while ago) it is theoretically possible to find the way GT5's tire trip responds as sideways and vertical forces increase, but I do not need to do that for this model. These are all good critiques and questions about GT5 physics, but whether or not I can find a G value for any in-game car is obvious.

@D-Max: It took just a few hours and some thinking, and now I can produce very controlled and fast tunes for pretty much any drift car at will, with little room for improvement in the tune. For me, that's worth the time, if only to see my ideas come to work in practice.
 
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It just has to do with width of the rear tires. Which is, imo, the biggest factor to speed while drifting in GT5. Nothing else, and I don't need calculations to prove that point.


Or maybe the Tire Grip multiplier is just higher on the 350z versus the 200SX and tire width has nothing to do with it? 💡

Unless you done did illegal activities and can prove that tire width is indeed a factor that is simulated in GT5's tire physics model in which case, I take what I say back and you're right.
 
I just do random s:censored: to the tune and just hope for the best. Thats how all my cars come alive. I just look for the car to feel the best for me, Angle and smoothness: Speed is a side effect of my tunes.
 
dice1998
Or maybe the Tire Grip multiplier is just higher on the 350z versus the 200SX and tire width has nothing to do with it? 💡

This is exactly what it boils down to. The tire width is calculated through the grip multiplier
 
This is exactly what it boils down to. The tire width is calculated through the grip multiplier

Which means most of these theories might just be null and void.

The G Meter might be factored by the speed of the car and grip multiplier as well as the temperature level of the tire.
 
Which means most of these theories might just be null and void.

The G Meter might be factored by the speed of the car and grip multiplier as well as the temperature level of the tire.

No, I'm pretty sure it wouldnt render this 'null and void'. This was covered a long time ago.
 
dice1998
Which means most of these theories might just be null and void.

The G Meter might be factored by the speed of the car and grip multiplier as well as the temperature level of the tire.
Not necessarily void
GhostZ
No, I'm pretty sure it wouldnt render this 'null and void'. This was covered a long time ago.
One thing you might want to do is message Scaff on here. He is the one that started the Physics comparison threads between Forza 4 and GT5

He might be able to confirm your findings. He has knowledge of the physics probably more than even you (no offense just saying). So he might be able to help confirm/disprove this for you and other.
 
Not necessarily void

One thing you might want to do is message Scaff on here. He is the one that started the Physics comparison threads between Forza 4 and GT5

He might be able to confirm your findings. He has knowledge of the physics probably more than even you (no offense just saying). So he might be able to help confirm/disprove this for you and other.

You're right, and I remember that. It might give me insight to how GT5 comes up with those G numbers, but like I said earlier, all I need is the G numbers themselves. If GT5 didn't give those, this would be nearly impossible.
 
I don't care much for specifics like this ...

Essentially learn the basics of setups and you're fine !

I disagree. The goal with this isn't to be fine, it's to get the absolute best performance.

A lot of drifters get caught into a sort of superstition about tuning and technique, where some things 'work' and somethings 'don't work', so they end up either practicing bad habits, or holding themselves back. One the purposes of this is to find mathematical, demonstrable ways to make a drifter and drift car better. It's not so much to learn what settings seem good, its to learn exactly what settings work the best for what you want to do.

I've found that thinking like that has gotten me to learn faster and better, and apply what I've learned to driving even quicker, and I've found some surprising details along the way.
 
I disagree. The goal with this isn't to be fine, it's to get the absolute best performance.

A lot of drifters get caught into a sort of superstition about tuning and technique, where some things 'work' and somethings 'don't work', so they end up either practicing bad habits, or holding themselves back. One the purposes of this is to find mathematical, demonstrable ways to make a drifter and drift car better. It's not so much to learn what settings seem good, its to learn exactly what settings work the best for what you want to do.

I've found that thinking like that has gotten me to learn faster and better, and apply what I've learned to driving even quicker, and I've found some surprising details along the way.

Which means to me, that you've took steps away from finding the perfeect tune, and ruined cars. Don't put your opinion of a perfect tune in front of others, just because you have some numbers to back it up. Like Neela said in Tokyo Drift : "I don't need a computer to tell me how to drive." (Or numbers, in this instance.)
 
Which means to me, that you've took steps away from finding the perfeect tune, and ruined cars. Don't put your opinion of a perfect tune in front of others, just because you have some numbers to back it up. Like Neela said in Tokyo Drift : "I don't need a computer to tell me how to drive." (Or numbers, in this instance.)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat????????? :confused: I think you completely misunderstood what Ghost meant by quicker. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he meant it in the sense that his "tuning by the numbers" style allows him to apply what he has learned more quickly....not that has his tuning style makes him more quick (although, in your defense, he has claimed in the past that his methods make him faster...but in this particular instance, I don think that's what he was referring to)

That said, I don't understand why people try to fight Ghost so much. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, his tuning methods may be different from mine....but at the end of the day, it's how he enjoys to play the VIDEO GAME. If he's having fun, he's winning in my books.

Question for you Dom. Why can't / shouldn't Ghost put his opinion of a perfect tune in front of others??? You like to share your opinion on lots of things with lots of people, why can't Ghost??

At least Ghost has done some background work so he can provide reasons for why he adjusts certain settings the way he does. I find that much more admirable than, oh I dunno...someone who constantly harps "5/60/60 is the best diff setting, it's the only diff setting anyone should ever use, anyone who uses a different setting isn't a real drifter and has ruined their car," with no reasoning or info to back up their statement. (On the subject of "the best diff setting", what's your opinion of 5/80/80, or 0/100/100?...still not as good as 5/60/60??)

Oh, and if we're going to use the opinions of fictional characters to back up our points of view, I see your Neela and raise you a Takahashi Ryosuke. And I must say, if I had to chose one of those two to win a race....Takahashi hands down! Neela who?? This is so stupid, I'm out :cheers:

...Tokyo Drift :lol: gud 1!
 
Well said ^, to those who doubt his tuning method, drive Ghostz tuned car first before making comments about his tuning method, he is sharing his cars for others to try and he also opens a tuning garage, taking tune requests too :D
 
Well said ^, to those who doubt his tuning method, drive Ghostz tuned car first before making comments about his tuning method, he is sharing his cars for others to try and he also opens a tuning garage, taking tune requests too :D

wasn't impressive. And Twitcher it's fine for him to express opinion except that it's not an opinion to him, it's fact.
 
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat????????? :confused: I think you completely misunderstood what Ghost meant by quicker. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he meant it in the sense that his "tuning by the numbers" style allows him to apply what he has learned more quickly....not that has his tuning style makes him more quick (although, in your defense, he has claimed in the past that his methods make him faster...but in this particular instance, I don think that's what he was referring to)

I might have misinterpreted it this time, but like you said, he claimed more than once it also is a way of setting a car up for maximum traction and thus speed potential.

That said, I don't understand why people try to fight Ghost so much. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, his tuning methods may be different from mine....but at the end of the day, it's how he enjoys to play the VIDEO GAME. If he's having fun, he's winning in my books.

I don't care what he does with his cars. I really don't. If I don't like his driving style I will just avoid him.

Question for you Dom. Why can't / shouldn't Ghost put his opinion of a perfect tune in front of others??? You like to share your opinion on lots of things with lots of people, why can't Ghost??

Because he doesn't state it as opinion. He states it as a fact. And people that do not acknowledge that fact are lesser drifters, tuners or even humans.

At least Ghost has done some background work so he can provide reasons for why he adjusts certain settings the way he does. I find that much more admirable than, oh I dunno...someone who constantly harps "5/60/60 is the best diff setting, it's the only diff setting anyone should ever use, anyone who uses a different setting isn't a real drifter and has ruined their car," with no reasoning or info to back up their statement. (On the subject of "the best diff setting", what's your opinion of 5/80/80, or 0/100/100?...still not as good as 5/60/60??)

Difference being, the background is at least questionable, and he uses it as a way to force his opinions on others. When I state I use the 5/60/60 for example, and I state that I think other people should use it as well, that's because it actually helps in tandems. Which is a proven fact. (Ask Chris aka Frag.) When people won't use the setup, I don't care. They just won't get in a tandem with me.

Oh, and if we're going to use the opinions of fictional characters to back up our points of view, I see your Neela and raise you a Takahashi Ryosuke. And I must say, if I had to chose one of those two to win a race....Takahashi hands down! Neela who?? This is so stupid, I'm out :cheers:

...Tokyo Drift :lol: gud 1!

I'm sorry, but a quote is a quote. Who cares who writes a quote, when it holds a certain truth?

wasn't impressive. And Twitcher it's fine for him to express opinion except that it's not an opinion to him, it's fact.

+1
 
Part of my tuning involves using mathematics to aim tires properly with toe and camber angles. Here I will explain the theory behind it. You'll need to have already underderstood a vast majority of tuning to get this, and some linear algebra/calculus, but bear with me if you can. I would also like to use this as a promotional for my tuning garage, to demonstrate tuning skill.

Ghost Tuning Garage

Consider each tire as having a vector. This vector is comprised of the values for rotational speed and direction. For example, a car traveling at, say, 30 MPH has a rotational speed under the front tires of 30mph, and the rear tires at 30mph. Since GT5 does not give us wheel diameters (and rim diameters are different than wheel diameters) we cannot find RPM measurements at the wheels, but that is unimportant.

As a car turns, the angle by which it is traveling relative to the tangent line of the corner changes as well. At low speeds, the car travels as a tangent line to the driving line would, so at apex both the driving line and inside corner, have the same tangent line.

TangentLine_1000.gif


However, you have to remember, that is NOT the angle of the car. That is the angle of the path of travel. The car will be going in that direction when it reaches that point (P). The tires however, will not be pointed in that direction.

Why?

Two reasons. The first is that the car is on a continuum, so the tires need to be pointed in the direction of its ongoing path of travel, not the instantaneous one (which is what that line represents), the second is that the tires actually travel at a small slip angle to their path of travel.

So what ultimately determines that path of travel? Wheel Vectors.

A car has the following wheels:

[Value 1, Value 2]
[30, 0] FR
[30, 0] FL
[30, 0] RR
[30, 0] RL

These wheels are all traveling at 30 mph, with a 0 angle deviation from the tangent line. In other words, the car is traveling straight on a straight road.

As the corner comes up, the car starts to turn. The angle of the front two wheels change (Value 2), the inside one more than the outside to maintain the arc, and try to follow the tangent line. The outside wheel's rotational speed (Value 1) rises and the inside wheel's rotational speed lowers.

The rear wheels, because they do not turn, change rotational speed as well. However, if they cannot change rotation speed quick enough (say, they have an LSD that prevents deceleration, or an engine giving them power that keeps them spinning faster than the angle they are asked to go) then in order for them to travel along the same path as the car, they must slip at a higher angle. We have started the drift.

Now what is interesting is that the new path of the car while drifting is figured by the same basic calculations as before. Except that instead of the wheels being a rectangle that is tangent to the driving line, it is now a diamond that is tangent to the driving line. This means that while the vectors of tire speed and angle determining the path of the car (and how fast) they are in a new shape.

But these are not really 2 dimensional vectors. They are 3 dimensional vectors. Tire Grip is the last one, which is counteracting a large vector of cornering force so the car can maintain the equilibrium in the other two dimensions (speed, angle) if the tires cannot counteract that force, a new equilibrium (a change in angle, aka understeer, or a change in speed) is necessary for the car to maintain its equilibrium.

What is interesting is that the tires grip is not evenly distributed, and additionally, increases almost proportionally as weight over the tire goes up, so you can actually calculate the path of the car using vectors like these:

[V1, V2, V3] FR
[V1, V2, V3] FL
[V1, V2, V3] RR
[V1, V2, V3] RL

Where V1 is the speed of the tire, V2 is the angle relative to the tangent line of the driving line, and V3 is weight over the tire. The maximum cornering speed for a given angle will be found when the tire's relative angels (adjustable by toe) rotational speed (adjusted by LSD and driver input) and grip (adjusted by suspension and driver input) are all in harmony.

This is one of many mathematical models I use to tune with, and it is the one I am most proud of for its creation. Precise calculations are not here because I like to preserve my method, but I see no reason not to, especially after some time now, to share this with the community. If you like the concept or want to know more, you can check out my newly opened tuning garage, here:

Ghost Tuning Garage

Let me summarize this. Pull the e-brake, drift and have some fun lol. No need trigonometry here :lol:
 
RICEFREAK
Let me summarize this. Pull the e-brake, drift and have some fun lol. No need trigonometry here :lol:

Thumbs up. Drifting at its best right there.

@ GhostZ
I mean no offense ghost. But i have tried with some friends tuning by numbers. What usually the result is a car that drifts perfect but feels lifeless. Plus when you drift on a wheel (in my case G27) it is good to have the most feeling for the car as you can.

Sure I can break out my calculator and get the perfect settings. But in the end there is not any art left to it. And in my opinion that's what drifting is about. So when i tune a car I like it to look and feel like the real thing. Have life in the suspension as the car leans into the corner and shows as much of that information of the body roll through the wheel. I just do not get that by tuning by numbers.

Don't get me wrong I will try one of your tunes but if it doesn't have that feel I won't use it. Get what i mean?
 
I think you guys need to know that this is a tool. I suppose here is a good metaphor:

Tuning a drift car is like building a house. You want it to look a certain way, but it also needs to serve a purpose. Sometimes, looking a certain way fulfills that purpose.

But if you try to build a house without a measuring tape, or a hammer, the house is not going to look the way you want. Also, if you do not have a clear idea (such as just throwing a car around a corner without precision) of what the house is supposed to look like, all of the tools in the world won't help you.

But if you know what you want out of your car, and you want to make it as good as possible, this tool is the best way you can approach it. If you build that house as perfectly as possible, it doesn't matter if it has a fireplace or a pool (if you build that drift car as perfectly as possible, it doesn't matter if it does reverse entries or figure 8s) this is the tool by which you can make it do what you want it to do, as best as possible. That is what a perfect drift car is. Yes, everyone's 'idea' of perfect is different, but if you don't have the theory, the knowledge, or the skill to apply that information, you're going to lose something.

Comparative tuning, covered in other topics, is designed to copy that feel from one car and bring it into another, vastly different, car, so that a tiny loss of maximum performance could mean a lot higher overall performance since it is more familiar.

As for the car on share was never intended to have a dramatic feel, (as I've mentioned to Drift_monkey) it is designed to demonstrate the breadth of tuning options that I can do - a concept car. I invite you to try next week's car, a Skyline GT-R drift car, or to ask for a full tune yourself.

I don't tune easy to drive cars. While I can, it makes no sense to me. I tune cars at their peak, and if they are difficult to handle, it is either my responsibility (or the responsibility of the drifter) to learn.
 
I think it's cool although it's nothing i'd use for drifting.

This quote sums up my thoughts on drift cars:

The whole point was to make it the worst handling, eye catching machine possible and then make it fly. The skill was controlling the beast, not *****ng auto pilot.

You're all going to Hell.
 
So according to that quote you setup your cars to handle intentionally worse then usual so you can control it via drifting?
 
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