Air Asia Flight Lost Over Indonesia

[Omnis]

Do they get lenticular clouds in Java?

 

[CinnamonOD]

To just quickly summarize your post, 8501 tried to fly over the storm, failed and lost engine power as a result of the poorly executed maneuver?

He said that the plane reached a really high altitude and it stalled because it was at it's operable limit, adding factors not related with the plane..

So basically a case of everything went horribly wrong just because of one negligence

 

[Keef]

To just quickly summarize your post, 8501 tried to fly over the storm, failed and lost engine power as a result of the poorly executed maneuver?

Basically. The problems I suggested were examples taken from Pinnacle Airlines 3701, Air France 447 and Colgan Air 3407. Stall/loss of control near absolute ceiling with engine flame-out and failure to restart, pitot-static system failure due to icing and failure to recover from a stall at altitude, and another failure to recover from a stall due to airframe icing.

Do they get lenticular clouds in Java?

Not over the ocean - only on the coffee box art.

 

[Robin]

Might be about time for permanent GPS tracking of aircraft after two planes have gone missing in such a short space of time.

 

[Dodzzz]

How about putting a / some cameras (many angles) on every aircraft and record it to a data center via internet, is this possible?

 

[Omnis]

How about putting a / some cameras (many angles) on every aircraft and record it to a data center via internet, is this possible?

GPS would be cheaper, easier, and better.

 

[Dennisch]

I saw a piece on the news about the missing planes issues.

Turns out that most airplanes (new~ish) are already equipped with tracking hardware, and all they need is a software update to get it to work.

The update mostly isn't performed because of the cost of the live data feed/transfer.

Air France is supposed to be one of the companies that have implemented it on their planes after the crash near Brazil. It sends out a signal every 10 minutes or so instead of every hour.

 

[Dodzzz]

GPS would be cheaper, easier, and better.

But cameras can reveil the cause or at least how the plane crashed..

 

[Omnis]

Black boxes already do that. You know how cameras need light to work and how planes fly at night? Yeah.

 

[Dennisch]

But cameras can reveil the cause or at least how the plane crashed..

I think you do not understand how much data will be flying through the airwaves with your solution.

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

I find it a bit strange that again a plane is missing in a heavily used shipping area. Sailed the Java Sea myself on several occasions and it is always crowded with merchant vessels and a lot of fishing boats, they should have seen or otherwise found something quite quickly?

 

[Dodzzz]

I think you do not understand how much data will be flying through the airwaves with your solution.

720p at 3Mbps would be more than enough for a clear video quality for one camera for one airplane, but of course even 480p at 1Mbps would still be sufficient for reviewing the cause of the accident, say we put 4 camera at different angles at 480p 1Mbps that would be 4Mbps per plane.

A quick google search showed me:

NOAA estimates that 5,000 planes are in the sky over the United States. On any given day, more than 87,000 flights travel through US airspace… globally estimates seem to be that there are around 8,000 – 13,000 though I didn't happen to find an authoritative source.

Then globally, we only need about 13000 planes x 4Mbps = 52Gbps of internet traffic for these 4 cameras per plane streaming into the data center.
and I don't think we need to keep the video data stored longer than 1 day so storage wouldn't be a problem either.

But what I am not sure is, can airplanes get that kind of data connection all the time, above clouds and sea in the middle of nowhere?

 

[TDZdave]

So they still haven't found this one either?

 

[Keef]

I think the moral of the story is this: I will never, ever, fly commercial airlines in Southeast Asia. At least we know the ones in Ukraine get shot down.

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

I think the moral of the story is this: I will never, ever, fly commercial airlines in Southeast Asia. At least we know the ones in Ukraine get shot down.

Yeah, just stay safely in the States and don't go abroad...

I regularly fly in the Far East with different companies and the small risk of going down is the same as in Europe or the US. So no moral of the story.....

 

[Liquid]

I think the moral of the story is this: I will never, ever, fly commercial airlines in Southeast Asia. At least we know the ones in Ukraine get shot down.

What, deadhead a cargo flight instead?

There are 400,000 people in the air at any given moment. It's just that when an aeroplane does go down/missing, well.. it's going to generate news.

 

[Keef]

But planes don't just "go missing". The last time a scheduled airliner went missing in the US was 1950, long before modern tracking technology, etc. I think there's some funny business going on down yonder.

 

[Scaff]

720p at 3Mbps would be more than enough for a clear video quality for one camera for one airplane, but of course even 480p at 1Mbps would still be sufficient for reviewing the cause of the accident, say we put 4 camera at different angles at 480p 1Mbps that would be 4Mbps per plane.

A quick google search showed me:


Then globally, we only need about 13000 planes x 4Mbps = 52Gbps of internet traffic for these 4 cameras per plane streaming into the data center.
and I don't think we need to keep the video data stored longer than 1 day so storage wouldn't be a problem either.

But what I am not sure is, can airplanes get that kind of data connection all the time, above clouds and sea in the middle of nowhere?

Yep - cos 52gbps is going to be a doddle to manage for something that will provide us with less information that the current black boxes do (and I'm far from convinced that 1mbps is going to be a high enough bit rate in the first place).

It would be far more use (as has been said) to simply transmit GPS every few minutes.

 

[Barra333]

But planes don't just "go missing". The last time a scheduled airliner went missing in the US was 1950, long before modern tracking technology, etc. I think there's some funny business going on down yonder.

Until 10 months ago, what was the last Asian plane to go missing? Flying is no less safe today than it was lat year. Did you stop flying in late 2011 because 4 planes crashed on the same day? Same logic.

And before you tell me to put my money where my mouth is, I hold a ticket to fly on MH16 on 28th Feb next year.

 

[Keef]

Until 10 months ago, what was the last Asian plane to go missing?

1995, Java sea. 1983, Malacca straight. Similar occurrences happen in Central and South American and the Caribbean, all of which have similar environments to Southeast Asia - namely poor infrastructure. Crashes happen everywhere, yes. But they don't go missing in places where proper aviation-related infrastructure exists.

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

But they don't go missing in places where proper aviation-related infrastructure exists.

Steve Fossett

 

[Liquid]

Different geographical regions with different climates mean that one area of the world probably might be inherently more dangerous to fly in than another, even with all the technology in the world.

 

[Keef]

Steve Fossett

Severe VFR mountain flying with no flight plan isn't even in the same galaxy as scheduled airline ops.

EDIT: Look at a VFR chart of the Rockies and tell me what aviation infrastructure exists below the mountain ridges. There isn't any. No radar, sporadic radio reception, no navaid reception, and hell in some places you can't even trust your compass because of magnetic anomalies. IFR flight is impossible in that environment and is about as far you can get from an airline environment.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So they still haven't found this one either?

It's been less than twenty-four hours. Unless you have visual confirmation of a plane going down, a quick resolution is unheard of when the plane isn't transmitting data. It's doubly hard if the plane breaks up, as the parts are carried away by ocean currents.

 

[GTboyz]

Malaysian have been through a lot this year, 3 airplane incidents in a year.

God i hope this is the last one.

 

[TDZdave]

It's been less than twenty-four hours. Unless you have visual confirmation of a plane going down, a quick resolution is unheard of when the plane isn't transmitting data. It's doubly hard if the plane breaks up, as the parts are carried away by ocean currents.

A mere 'yes' or 'no' would have been fine

 

[prisonermonkeys]

A mere 'yes' or 'no' would have been fine

Okay. But don't complain when you get one-word answers with no explanation as to why that is the given answer.

 

[Keef]

It's seeming like the crash was weather related. It's possible the plane flew into heavy turbulence at the top of a thunderhead and was torn apart. The plane lost radio contact and fell off radar only a couple minutes after requesting a course and altitude deviation. It's easy to misread the plane's onboard radar display - do they not have any sort of weather observation systems in this region?

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

Severe VFR mountain flying with no flight plan isn't even in the same galaxy as scheduled airline ops.

EDIT: Look at a VFR chart of the Rockies and tell me what aviation infrastructure exists below the mountain ridges. There isn't any. No radar, sporadic radio reception, no navaid reception, and hell in some places you can't even trust your compass because of magnetic anomalies. IFR flight is impossible in that environment and is about as far you can get from an airline environment.

Wasn't in the Rockies, and of course it's not the same as a scheduled passenger flights that's why there was a .
Sorry didn't want to offend you in any way or to go more off topic.

Regarding the weather observation system, that's in place around Indonesia.
In Selat Karimata where the plane went down it's not uncommon to have heavy thunderstorms.
Still strange nothing is reported about any wreckage found.

EDIT: Apparently some wreckage was spotted by an Australian plane and an oil slick by Indonesian coast guard.

 

[Liquid]

South East Asian weather and geology can catch out anyone. Back in the early 80s British Airways 9 flew into an ashcloud, lost all four engines before managing to get one started and limp to an emergency landing. When a similar fate befell a KLM plane, they rerouted the flight path even further away from the volcano in question.

Perhaps the weather report systems are inadequate, maybe something like that could come up in an investigation but you'll never fully eliminate the chances of bad or sudden weather catching an aeroplane out.

However that of course is no excuse for resting on laurels and accepting a status quo.