Alfa hits the states!

[niky]

sure! 👍

@JCE: yeah, RWD would be nice, but it'd push it out of it's already great price bracket. I can get a base 2.0 here for almost the same money I got my four-banger sedan for... the last time we had a RWD japanese coupe (the awesome Silvia 200sx... turbo) it cost over twice as much and only sold in handfuls (the only current coupe we get here is a 350Z, and it costs almost $60,000 here because of taxes.

I think what would be great is if it came with a Japanese engine, like a 4G63 or a 4G63T and one of Mitsu's great 200hp 2 liter V6s for the "luxury" model.

 

[TheCracker]

....It's still Italian engineering at its best....

I just love this statement, especially when used in an Alfa Romeo context!

 

[Danny]

Folks, my apologies. When I talked about the hatchback Alfa, I meant to state the 147. No such thing as the 145. Or was there? That is all, carry on carrying on.

There sure was!

I believe the Cloverleaf version was in GT2.

 

[Sniffs]

May I remind people here that the US used to get the likes of Alpha/Peuge/Renault/Citroen, etc...france and italy sent us their colonial crap. the last to peter out in the US was citroen...they sent us 505's and 506's.

the only other thing i've seen lately is a 5 (allience) ragtop for sale

from what I've heard and seen in britan Ford Europe does even blander cars there than they do here, Opel/Vaux still has GM's reputation for being crap, and DC, trying to keep engine sizes down to european comfort levels, aren't providing them enough power.

America is Ferarri's best customer

Korea has caught up to Japan...and now, apparently, japan is threatend by Korea, Inc. like the US was threatened by Japan, inc a couple decades ago.

i have a couple peices of proof that america got the like of european regulars that I'm gonna put up.

i think the best bet for the likes of Alpha, etc is to just make sure the instruments and controlls are in English, and leave the wheel and controlls on the original side

 

[Wolfe]

May I remind people here that the US used to get the likes of Alpha/Peuge/Renault/Citroen, etc...france and italy sent us their colonial crap. the last to peter out in the US was citroen...they sent us 505's and 506's.

Yes indeedy. Doesn't change the fact that Alfa's being sold in the states is a new thing (again). And thus, rather big news.

from what I've heard and seen in britan Ford Europe does even blander cars there than they do here, Opel/Vaux still has GM's reputation for being crap, and DC, trying to keep engine sizes down to european comfort levels, aren't providing them enough power.

I've heard and seen the same things, except for the DC one.

Korea has caught up to Japan...and now, apparently, japan is threatend by Korea, Inc. like the US was threatened by Japan, inc a couple decades ago.

And it's said that China is going to catch up even faster than Korea, who caught up faster than Japan.

i think the best bet for the likes of Alpha, etc is to just make sure the instruments and controlls are in English, and leave the wheel and controlls on the original side

...what?

 

[Sniffs]

Wolfe 2x7: it's badly phrased, I know. Translation: simply translate the wording in the manual to english and put the instruments into SAE measurements...leave everything else as is, and not try to briticize them for the american market...

i know, china's gonna go beserk

Re: DiamlerChrysler...i saw reviews in a british automotive magazine while a "guest of the crown" (bleedin immigration), that stated that the 2 liters they provided in briticized neons and PT cruisers weren't powerfull enough

 

[Scaff]

@sniffs - With regard to the last Citroens being sold in the US being the 505 and 506, are you sure you don't mean the peugeot 505 and 506. never been such a thing as a Citroen 505 or 506.

The two main reasons for most volume European manufacturers pulling out of the states were firstly built quality, which at the time was very, very poor. With the second being emmisions regulations, the cars being sold by European manufacturers at the time ended up very underpowered due to far stricter regulations in the states than europe at the time.

Very few people want to buy an unreliable and underpowered car, that costs more than a domestic model.


On the DC models being underpowered, it depends what model you are refering to, I'm quite sure no one would claim that the SL65 AMG is underpowered. The reason the two models you mentioned above had problems here was not just down to engine size and/or power. More an issue of cost, in comparison to the US price of a Neon, they were very expensive for what you got.

Issues also arose over built quality, which has been a far bigger problem (and a world-wide one) for DC than engines. I can rememeber the first M-class I drove and being stunned by the incrediably poor level of built quality, the sun-visor actualy fell off as I pulled away in it. Not what you expect from a Merc.


The whole Korea/China thing is a very interesting one, this weeks Autocar magazine (which is 110 years old this week - oldest car mag in the world) had an interesting piece on this subject by Chris Harris.

It points out that we have had (in Europe) Korean cars on sale since the late '80's and as of yet the often forcast that they would take the market by storm has failed to happen. Of all of these Korean monsters only two remain as fighters for the tail end of the UK market, Kia and Hyundai. Proton may own Lotus, but as a marque in Europe its hardly a major force. Daewoo, who were going to revolutionise the way we bought cars and the amount we paid for them, are now sold as Chevrolet in most markets outside of North and South America. The rest have either been bought up or gone bust.

In regard to China, the first target the emerging Chinese makers will want to capture is there own. Why try and sell cars in the rest of the world when you have a home market that by conservative industry estimates has at least 10 years of rapid growth in it before it starts to settle down.

That gives the rest of the world at least some breathing room to play with, and even then unless they are very lucky the Chinese will have the same issues that the Koreans (and the Japanese before them) have had.

In Europe that simply boils down to the lack of brand; brand identity and what it means to customers is one of the reasons why the BMW 3-series outsells the Ford Mondeo in the UK and has done for a number of years.

Don't get me wrong, the Chinese are comming and they will sell cars in Europe and the States, but not next week, and they will have to work damn hard (as the Japanese have) to become major players in the world market.

The other side of the coin is that, as I have said, the Chinese car market is set to become one of the fastest growing in the world over the next decade. I don't think that the big players from the US, Europe and Japan are going to let all those buyers stick to Chinese cars. Nope, all the major car manufacturers are already fighting with the domestic Chinese manufacturers for market share as we speak.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Sniffs]

*grins* ack, what made me say Citroen? thanks, scaff

I meant, tho, conversions of neon and PT Cruiser as stated above, it has nothing to do with you guy's mercs (an american means a Mercury when they say Merc).
btw, I have seen ONE mercedes Estate around here...Mercs are as rare as hen's teeth in the boondocks where I'm at, and then the ones that ARE common are old 190's.

as far as I remember, Hyundai broke into the US imports market in 89...around the same time Mitsubishi first came in under their OWN name, to my knowlege.

I'm not arguing with the dropout points of non German european manufacturers...they fell out exactly as you stated...i still think that they sent us their colonial crap

 

[xXSilencerXx]

Personally I think Alfa makes very ugly cars and couldn't care less if they're sold in the states.

 

[Famine]

!

 

[a6m5]

Korea has caught up to Japan...and now, apparently, japan is threatend by Korea, Inc. like the US was threatened by Japan, inc a couple decades ago.

If you had said Japan has caught up to U.S., it would have made some sense. Japanese automobile production and engineering is on par with the Americans' IMO. I haven't seen anything from South Korea that suggests their ability to build the next Lexus. South Korea has one company that has made strides in recent years, and everybody knows it's Hyundai. Kia and Daewoo, I belive have gone bankrupt. Kia now operates under Hyundai, Daewoo probably under GM. I don't even know how many markets actually get Samsung cars. They are certainly not available in the U.S.

Maybe you meant that Hyundai has caught up with the Japanese automakers? That would be true. I'm not a fan of Hyundai and I will probably never buy one, but you have to admire the people that's giving direction to that company. Certainly the second best export ever to come out of South Korea(after Kimchi, of course).

!

You'd be surprised. Peoples' taste are very diverse here. Alfa styling certainly will be hated by some. Don't look at me! I don't know where these crazy people come from!

 

[xXSilencerXx]

!

Okay I'll admit that one is pretty decent looking. Still overall I don't like the way most of their cars look.

 

[Delphic Reason]

!

I'd trake that out for a date...

 

[JohnBM01]

Then let me ask you all this. It's obvious a lot of you know what Americans want out of automobiles. Stereotypical issues aside, what will it take for Alfa Romeo to be hot in the States in their return (I know they've been in America before)?

 

[TheCracker]

Then let me ask you all this. It's obvious a lot of you know what Americans want out of automobiles. Stereotypical issues aside, what will it take for Alfa Romeo to be hot in the States in their return (I know they've been in America before)?

I would think that Alfa really need to iron out their reliability issues for it to work out for them in the States. As i've said in other threads, i have two close family members who've recently owned Alfas - neither experenced any real problems with their cars reliability, but you do still hear plenty of negative stories, so i guess the issues still exist. My mum had an Alfa Sud when i was a kid. By all accounts it was a fantastic little car - unfortunatly it got left out of the garage one rainy night, and in the morning all was left were four tyres and a small pile of rust in the middle

 

[Sniffs]

a6m5: more like passed us. Korea has caught up with japan, which means they are damn close to blowing US quality out of the water.

and Daewoo got given to Suzuki

PS: i saw a Tiburon tuner at a car show this year...talk about Kimchi

Silencer: that's america's reputation automotivewise, Style over Substance...of ANY kind...ford's starting to disproove that

if I was going for non German european? it'd read kind of like my GT2 car list..
Coupe
Punto GT
Seiciento
155
Delta
306

and, believe it or not, I'll take a Vaux or two...gimmie an Astra

 

[TheCracker]

a6m5: more like passed us. Korea has caught up with japan, which means they are damn close to blowing US quality out of the water.

Japanese cars are behind the US for quality?

and, believe it or not, I'll take a Vaux or two...gimmie an Astra

Only a none Euro could utter this sentance with a straight face.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Only a none Euro could utter this sentance with a straight face.

I'd take a Astra Sporthatch VXR and maybe a Monaro VXR (But it's a Holden).

I would touch the VX220, vectra or corsa. Not to mention the Zafira and Meriva.

 

[Famine]

Japanese cars are behind the US for quality?

I read the Top Gear customer satisfaction survey yesterday. It makes for interesting reading.

For those of you unfamiliar with the survey, owners of 2 year old cars are invited to fill it in - online, in the post, whatever - and covers aspects of reliability (engine, 'box/brakes/steering and electrical are separated), fit & finish, handling, performance, dealer customer care, comfort and ownership costs. Cars are ranked on each category (by model - every conceivable variant), then pooled and ranked overall.

This year, the bottom FOUR cars were French. 3 of the bottom 4 manufacturers were French. 15 of the top 20 cars were Japanese. 5 of the top 6 manufacturers were Japanese...

1. Lexus
2. Skoda
3. Honda
4. Mazda
5. Toyota
6. Subaru
...
32. Mercedes-Benz
33. Citroen
34. Renault
35. FIAT
36. Peugeot

Top Korean - Hyundai - was 11th, 7 points (out of 100) behind Lexus. Top (only) American - Chrysler - was 20th, 4 points behind Hyundai and behind such ultra-reliable marques as Jaguar, Lotus and GM-owned Saab - though ahead of Volkswagen, Kia, Ford (Europe) and also GM-owned Vauxhall.

1. Honda S2000 (Sports) - JAPANESE
2. Lexus IS (Family) - JAPANESE
3. Lexus RX300 (SUV) - JAPANESE
4. Skoda Superb (Executive, New entry) - CZECH
5. Skoda Octavia (Family) - CZECH
6. Honda Jazz (City Car) - JAPANESE
7. Honda Accord (Family, New entry) - JAPANESE
8. Subaru Legacy (Family) - JAPANESE
9. Skoda Fabia (Supermini) - CZECH
10. Subaru Forester (Family) - JAPANESE

150. Citroen Xsara (Small Family) - FRENCH
151. Peugeot 206 (Supermini) - FRENCH
152. Renault Megane (Small Family) - FRENCH
153. Rover 25 (Supermini) - BRITISH
154. FIAT Stilo (Small Family) - ITALIAN
155. Mercedes M-Class (SUV) - GERMAN
156. Renault Laguna (Family) - FRENCH
157. Renault Espace (People Carrier, new entry) - FRENCH
158. Peugeot 307 (Small Family) - FRENCH
159. Peugeot 807 (People Carrier, new entry) - FRENCH

(the next 3 cars, in 147-149th place are also French, and 4 of the next 5 top cars are Japanese, punctuated only by 12th place Jaguar XJ)

 

[Danny]

Citroen's Berlingo was relatively high, I believe.

Also, for people who aren't sure whether they like the Alfa styling, here's your choices.

or

or

 

[Famine]

Citroen's Berlingo was relatively high, I believe.

Not really. 90th/159 is bottom half, though it was the highest-placed French car...

I should add that Alfa came 28th (from 36), with its highest placed car (156) in 103rd place.

 

[Danny]

And that was above the Vectra if I remember correctly.

 

[a6m5]

a6m5: more like passed us. Korea has caught up with japan, which means they are damn close to blowing US quality out of the water.

and Daewoo got given to Suzuki

PS: i saw a Tiburon tuner at a car show this year...talk about Kimchi

OK, I didn't realize that you were talking strictly quality. Sorry about that. That definitely makes more sense, and if you were talking about just Hyundai, I'd go along with that. Even then, their long-term reliability is still not proven(though I have good feeling about them personally), and other Korean makes are not even close to Hyundai's level IMO. I think Hyundai has caught up with most of the Japanese makes and at this rate, they will probably reach/pass premiere Japanese makes in the near future........... except Toyota. I think their cars are built in space somewhere, probably on Venus.

Famine: Skoda is rated almost at the top!? Only information I've even gotten about Skoda was that they were unbelivably unreliable cars, and were laughing stock in Europe. Obviously, they made some adjustments.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Famine: Skoda is rated almost at the top!? Only information I've even gotten about Skoda was that they were unbelivably unreliable cars, and were laughing stock in Europe. Obviously, they made some adjustments.

Where have you been the last 10 years J/K

They actually used your stereotype in their marketing campaigns. But yeah, they've completely turned themselves around. They're now the car of choice for Taxi Drivers

 

[Famine]

OK, I didn't realize that you were talking strictly quality. Sorry about that. That definitely makes more sense, and if you were talking about just Hyundai, I'd go along with that. Even then, their long-term reliability is still not proven(though I have good feeling about them personally), and other Korean makes are not even close to Hyundai's level IMO. I think Hyundai has caught up with most of the Japanese makes and at this rate, they will probably reach/pass premiere Japanese makes in the near future........... except Toyota. I think their cars are built in space somewhere, probably on Venus.

Famine: Skoda is rated almost at the top!? Only information I've even gotten about Skoda was that they were unbelivably unreliable cars, and were laughing stock in Europe. Obviously, they made some adjustments.

Yep. The Estelle and Favorit were amongst the worst cars ever made. But they'd started to drag themselves up by the bootstraps when they were purchased by VAG. Now Skoda, despite their entire lineup being based on VAG vehicles, outstrip their parent company - and any sister company - in every conceivable aspect (other than sales - which the Golf has all to itself.

 

[Danny]

Is Seat in VAG?

 

[Famine]

Yep.

One chassis covers the Skoda Fabia, Audi A3, VW Golf, VW Beetle, Audi TT, Seat Ibiza and Seat Leon.

 

[Danny]

What about the Octavia?

I thought that was Golf based too

 

[Emohawk]

Edit: Yes. Yes it is.

 

[niky]

Hyundai quality bodes well for Kia, as they share engines and platforms.

Kia has received praise for its new Picanto. It's a cheap-ass car, but it's economical and easy to service, much like the Kia Pride (Mazda 121 - Ford Festiva rebadge) that preceded it.

Kia diesel engines used to be crap (you wait for them to conk out, then you swap in Japanese engines), but they're getting real good, too.