Aliens

[Imari]

Indeed. I didn't consider the moral part of this. But if you take out the moral part, don't you think that from a technical standpoint, these so called aliens should have much more advanced medical procedures?

One could absolutely make a strong argument that a species that has significantly advanced space travel technology then they probably also have significantly advanced biology.

But there's nothing about "advanced" that automatically also means "painless". Chemotherapy is an advanced technique for dealing with cancers that would otherwise be fatal, but it's still a catastrophic ordeal for people to go through. Medical procedures in humans are ultimately about curing the patient. All other things being equal it's desirable to avoid unnecessary pain, but if a cure requires that the patient undergo excruciating pain into order to avoid death then that's what they're going to be prescribed.

And that's not even getting into the idea that for whatever reason the aliens might wish to cause pain, either because it allows them to learn more or just for ***** and giggles. What if they don't have pain as we understand it, and they're trying to figure out how this strange new perceptual mode that we have works?

There's simply not enough information to make any assumptions like "real aliens wouldn't cause pain to abductees". Possibly because we don't have any information on real aliens, and the information that we have on humans suggests that yes, some of them absolutely would do that.

I though like the idea of aliens, if they are benign, helpful and friendly.

I mean, I like the idea of Satan if he's benign, helpful and friendly. Torture is amazing when it's done in a benign, helpful and friendly way. Pretty much anything sounds nice if you qualify that it's also benign, helpful and friendly. And it takes away any meaning from what you're saying, because it boils down to "I like nice things".

Part of the interesting thing about aliens is whether we should want to be contacted by them given that we don't know what they're like.

 

[Dotini]

Part of the interesting thing about aliens is whether we should want to be contacted by them given that we don't know what they're like.

Prior to space age exploration of the solar system, NASA was wondering the same thing. They commissioned the Brookings Institution to do a lengthy study and report, in part to address this very question.

The report has become noted for one short section entitled "The implications of a discovery of extraterrestrial life", which examines the potential implications of such a discovery on public attitudes and values. The section briefly considers possible public reactions to some possible scenarios for the discovery of extraterrestrial life, stressing a need for further research in this area. It recommended continuing studies to determine the likely social impact of such a discovery and its effects on public attitudes, including study of the question of how leadership should handle information about such a discovery and under what circumstances leaders might or might not find it advisable to withhold such information from the public. The significance of this section of the report is a matter of controversy. Persons who believe that extraterrestrial life has already been confirmed and that this information is being withheld by government from the public sometimes turn to this section of the report as support for their view. Frequently cited passages from this section of the report are drawn both from its main body[3] and from its footnotes.[4]

The report has been mentioned in newspapers such as The New York Times,[5] The Baltimore Sun,[6] The Washington Times,[7] and the Huffington Post.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Report

A relevant passage may be found here:
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/space_extraterrestrials.pdf

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Celebrated scientist Stephen Hawking had doubts,

Hawking voiced his fears at the Breakthrough event, saying, "We don't know much about aliens, but we know about humans. If you look at history, contact between humans and less intelligent organisms have often been disastrous from their point of view, and encounters between civilizations with advanced versus primitive technologies have gone badly for the less advanced. A civilization reading one of our messages could be billions of years ahead of us. If so, they will be vastly more powerful, and may not see us as any more valuable than we see bacteria."

Astrophysicist Martin Rees countered Hawking's fears, noting that an advanced civilization "may know we're here already."

https://www.space.com/29999-stephen-hawking-intelligent-alien-life-danger.html

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Opinion:
There remains the possibility that an alien civilization somehow seeded humanity and technology onto the planet, and is related in a quasi-paternal way. That might explain the incessant interest in nuclear facilities taken by UFOs since WWII.

 

[kikie]

What is correct? Aliens with a capital A or a lowercase letter mid sentence?

..... And it takes away any meaning from what you're saying, because it boils down to "I like nice things".

I don't get where you get this reasoning (it sounds illogical) and I disagree wholeheartedly.

Maybe I expressed myself incorrectly. I like the idea of aliens in general. The fact that there could be other beings on other planets traveling vast distances to our blue marble is an exciting idea but only if they are friendly. Who wants aggressive, dangerous aliens to visit our planet and try to conquer/enslave/kill us?

One thing though I agree with. I do like nice things but that is a subject for another thread and has nothing to do with aliens.

 

[Danoff]

Maybe I expressed myself incorrectly. I like the idea of aliens in general. The fact that there could be other beings on other planets traveling vast distances to our blue marble is an exciting idea but only if they are friendly. Who wants aggressive, dangerous aliens to visit our planet and try to conquer/enslave/kill us?

Can you come up with any reason why an advanced civilization would want to conquer, enslave, or kill us? If they can travel vast distances across the cosmos, I honestly can't think of many credible scenarios where we're particularly helpful, or harmful, to them.

It's also very easy to see why they might not want to contact us. We humans have something called the planetary protection which aims to avoid exposing, mars for example, to microbes from earth so that we can study mars without studying our own influence on mars. I could see an advanced species saying something like "well if we contact them we'd influence their technological progress, and then we couldn't study it". Or they might say "the interaction of our biological vessel with their environment will leave behind a viral mutation that will end their species" etc. etc.

They may have a strict "we don't call you, you call us" policy so that we remain a good laboratory for their observation.

 

[kikie]

Can you come up with any reason why an advanced civilization would want to conquer, enslave, or kill us? If they can travel vast distances across the cosmos, I honestly can't think of many credible scenarios where we're particularly helpful, or harmful, to them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/stephen-hawking-light-years-dangerous-aliens

It's also very easy to see why they might not want to contact us. We humans have something called the planetary protection which aims to avoid exposing, mars for example, to microbes from earth so that we can study mars without studying our own influence on mars. I could see an advanced species saying something like "well if we contact them we'd influence their technological progress, and then we couldn't study it". Or they might say "the interaction of our biological vessel with their environment will leave behind a viral mutation that will end their species" etc. etc.

They may have a strict "we don't call you, you call us" policy so that we remain a good laboratory for their observation.

I saw this Star Trek The next generations episode as well.

 

[Danoff]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/27/stephen-hawking-light-years-dangerous-aliens

I'm not seeing any solid reasons for why we'd be helpful or harmful to any advanced civilization.

 

[Dotini]

I'm not seeing any solid reasons for why we'd be helpful or harmful to any advanced civilization.

You may or may not be aware of this one:
Advanced alien civilizations - if there indeed are any - may be very ancient, far older than ours and maybe older even than Earth itself. Accordingly, they may have explored and exploited our planet to some degree in the past, and may take a sort of proprietary interest in the well-being of the planet and its resources, animal, mineral and vegetable. It is conceivable they regard nuclear development, explosions, leaks and waste, as detrimental to Earth and its ecology. Some humans already feel that way. But despite any non-interference policy, an advanced alien civilization with prior interest in Earth may take certain measures to monitor what it may regard as dangerous developments. This is just a maybe. IMHO, since there is no trace of aliens anywhere in the universe, I take the tentative view that they do not exist at all, and certainly not on the surface of Earth.

 

[Danoff]

You may or may not be aware of this one:
Advanced alien civilizations - if there indeed are any - may be very ancient, far older than ours and maybe older even than Earth itself. Accordingly, they may have explored and exploited our planet to some degree in the past, and may take a sort of proprietary interest in the well-being of the planet and its resources, animal, mineral and vegetable. It is conceivable they regard nuclear development, explosions, leaks and waste, as detrimental to Earth and its ecology. Some humans already feel that way. But despite any non-interference policy, an advanced alien civilization with prior interest in Earth may take certain measures to monitor what it may regard as dangerous developments. This is just a maybe. IMHO, since there is no trace of aliens anywhere in the universe, I take the tentative view that they do not exist at all, and certainly not on the surface of Earth.

I have a hard time imagining that a being that is thousands (or more) years ahead of us in technological development is worried about our nuclear waste. That doesn't seem like a tough problem to address compared to... say... faster than light travel.

 

[Joey D]

Can you come up with any reason why an advanced civilization would want to conquer, enslave, or kill us?

You mean besides wanting to build a hyperspatial express route that we failed to review the plans of even though they had been on display for over 50 years on Alpha Centauri?

It's hard to say, but it could be really anything from interpreting a radio signal that they received as a threat (I'm guessing it has to be a Friends episode, I'd invade a planet if you unleashed that crap onto my civilization) to Earth just being a sort of "zoo" for an alien species and they got bored with it.

 

[TexRex]

(I'm guessing it has to be a Friends episode, I'd invade a planet if you unleashed that crap onto my civilization)

 

[ScottPuss20]

Well, there are two possibilities: Either we are alone in this universe or we are not. Both prospects are equally terrifying.

I find it very hard to believe that there's nothing else out there in a universe that supposedly contains everything. How can we be the ONLY planet to contain such complex life forms? I like to think that there is another civilisation like ours asking the same questions.

 

[Danoff]

It's hard to say, but it could be really anything from interpreting a radio signal that they received as a threat

I don't see how we could possibly pose a threat to a far advanced civilization, or even be misunderstood as presenting a threat.

Earth just being a sort of "zoo" for an alien species and they got bored with it.

I'd think if we bored them, they'd just ignore us.

 

[kikie]

I'm not seeing any solid reasons for why we'd be helpful or harmful to any advanced civilization.

I was answering this question of yours, which is not really a reason but a concern from even scientists.

Can you come up with any reason why an advanced civilization would want to conquer, enslave, or kill us?

 

[Dotini]

I don't see how we could possibly pose a threat to a far advanced civilization, or even be misunderstood as presenting a threat.

Imagine the situation of an advanced "alien" (not extraterrestrial) civilization living right alongside us here, but in a slightly parallel reality or dimension. The problem being leakage between the realities or dimensions, leakage of hazardous byproducts from our nuclear plants, accidents, wars, and wastes. Potentially, we share and exploit the planet to our benefit, but are unknowingly affecting other species. In such a way, we could pose a threat to a far advanced - but not far away - civilization. We do not intend to be such a threat, but in fact we may be doing it. We pollute the oceans, without thought or care, that harms whales and dolphins, which are sentient beings. Perhaps there are other beings beneath the oceans that we don't know about that are being similarly harmed?

 

[Sprite]

I'm not seeing any solid reasons for why we'd be helpful or harmful to any advanced civilization.

Even the lowest lab rats yield results.

If we were established by an alien species as a lab experiment then they maybe intervening when we’re about to wreck their experiment. For all we know we could be a genetic cousin of these beings and we’re the test bed for vaccines or worse bio-weapons against another species.

 

[Imari]

I don't see how we could possibly pose a threat to a far advanced civilization, or even be misunderstood as presenting a threat.

You don't need to be a threat. The passenger pigeon wasn't a threat, but there are no more passenger pigeons.

If it turns out that we're delicious to aliens we might be in real trouble.

 

[Danoff]

I was answering this question of yours, which is not really a reason but a concern from even scientists.

I'm just not sure what you're answering the question with. Was that a "no" nobody has come up with a credible reason?

Imagine the situation of an advanced "alien" (not extraterrestrial) civilization living right alongside us here, but in a slightly parallel reality or dimension. The problem being leakage between the realities or dimensions, leakage of hazardous byproducts from our nuclear plants, accidents, wars, and wastes. Potentially, we share and exploit the planet to our benefit, but are unknowingly affecting other species.

Well that's very creative, but I'm struggling to understand how a species which can traverse dimensions is concerned about nuclear radiation. The whole traversing dimensions bit makes the radiation thing a footnote. And that's even assuming nuclear waste radiation traverses dimensions... all of this lacks any evidence.

In such a way, we could pose a threat to a far advanced - but not far away - civilization.

Only if you assume they're terribly not advanced in that one specific area that happens to be (mildly) scary to our current state of technology. You're projecting your understanding of our state of technology on a species that would be unrecognizably advanced to us.

Even the lowest lab rats yield results.

Results to what? We're talking about a species which has mastered interstellar travel (or possibly interdimensional travel if you go with Dotini) and yet they need to... test us? For something they can't predict or don't currently understand? I'm struggling to see anything credible here. This again is projecting our current state of technology, which is so poor when it comes to biology that we test things on lab rats, and projecting it to aliens which would not have such a poor understanding of biology.

For all we know we could be a genetic cousin of these beings and we’re the test bed for vaccines or worse bio-weapons against another species.

The idea that these beings have anything short of a completely engineered biology is a bit... of a stretch. Our biology would probably start out nothing like theirs, unless we were wholly engineered in ways that left no evidence for us to find, and our biology currently would look nothing like a completely engineered biology.

You don't need to be a threat. The passenger pigeon wasn't a threat, but there are no more passenger pigeons.

If it turns out that we're delicious to aliens we might be in real trouble.

You think they can travel between the stars but can't synthesize something that tastes way better than us? Even we can synthesize meat. I would imagine that they wouldn't eat. I don't think we'll eat in a few thousand years. Eating and breathing seem like they've really got to go.

 

[Sprite]

Results to what? We're talking about a species which has mastered interstellar travel (or possibly interdimensional travel if you go with Dotini) and yet they need to... test us? For something they can't predict or don't currently understand? I'm struggling to see anything credible here. This again is projecting our current state of technology, which is so poor when it comes to biology that we test things on lab rats, and projecting it to aliens which would not have such a poor understanding of biology.



The idea that these beings have anything short of a completely engineered biology is a bit... of a stretch. Our biology would probably start out nothing like theirs, unless we were wholly engineered in ways that left no evidence for us to find, and our biology currently would look nothing like a completely engineered biology.

Agreed on all counts. Maybe they put us here for fun? Maybe we're a terraforming virus as such. They create a basic biological entity (by their standards) and they drop off some sparks of life onto distant planets, then go about their other worldly business, then in due course we eventually cause the collapse of the planets eco systems and gobble up the resources and in a blaze of glory we nuke our species into oblivion. Then they come along and do something (I have no idea now, I'm just spit balling) to whatever remains.

It's possible we're an accident and they brandished this blue ball with life as an altruistic nod to their great deity in the central blackhole of our galaxy. Only to discover they'd made a major cockup and the intern never really thought trough the hard partying the night before and added some wrong DNA and woooosh the douchebags for the galaxy are formed. Now the galactic alliance has enacted their own directive and due to the Dolphins, Whales and Cephalopods in the sea showing remarkable intelligence they want to make sure the foolish upright monkeys with nukes don't ruin everything.

 

[kikie]

I'm just not sure what you're answering the question with. Was that a "no" nobody has come up with a credible reason?

That even scientists fear that aliens could be hostile.

 

[Danoff]

Agreed on all counts. Maybe they put us here for fun? Maybe we're a terraforming virus as such.

Only if they like concrete. Maybe we're entertainment (unknowingly, like The Truman Show), but if so, we lack any evidence to suggest this is the case, or to suggest that such an arrangement would head south for us. Also it seems... unlikely. How entertained would you be with a hidden video camera watching cave people live out their lives?

Now the galactic alliance has enacted their own directive and due to the Dolphins, Whales and Cephalopods in the sea showing remarkable intelligence they want to make sure the foolish upright monkeys with nukes don't ruin everything.

So let me see if I can follow this one. The dolphins are super cool creatures that have some biological distinction that we humans lack, and the aliens have yet to recognize this. But when they do, they'll remove us so that they can cultivate the dolphins.

This idea strikes me as being born in an environment that is unaware of the potential of engineered biology. The idea that a highly advanced civilization would be particularly interested in something that naturally occurs on Earth, to the point of trying to protect it and cultivate it over our species, kinda requires a lack of ability to produce whatever biology you want in the first place. What's the line from Gattaca?

"You could conceive naturally a thousand times and never get such a result."

Now scientifically speaking, assuming they haven't run this all through in simulation and found every permutation of possible biological creature in every environment, they might be interested in what develops on Earth. But so that they can cultivate it? I think we have to presuppose that they can synthesize a better dolphin than we can.

That even scientists fear that aliens could be hostile.

Without a credible reason.

 

[Dotini]

Without a credible reason.

It's happened before, over and over again. Remember? When you read the Brooking's Institution report?

 

[Joey D]

How entertained would you be with a hidden video camera watching cave people live out their lives?

Don't be kink-shaming the aliens.

Also, if YouTube has taught me anything it's that people who post the most inane things get millions and millions of views. Who knew there was an entire genre of YouTube videos that focused on people just eating? I think there's one that's pretty popular that's just a girl eating different kinds of bread.

 

[Sprite]

so that they can cultivate the dolphins.

Maybe not cultivate. Its possible they just like their recipe books and the racial Porpoise jokes, I mean they maybe an advanced civilisation but still racist a-hats and bad cooks.

 

[kikie]

Without a credible reason.

That doesn't matter. Everything concerning aliens is not credible and merely speculation. That doesn't mean that people (me, scientists, everyone) can't speculate about aliens if they are hostile or friendly.

 

[Dotini]

That doesn't matter. Everything concerning aliens is not credible and merely speculation. That doesn't mean that people (me, scientists, everyone) can't speculate about aliens if they are hostile or friendly.

Please read the Brookings Institution report, kikie. Then you'll know that entire civilizations have declined and perished upon encountering advanced foreigners with their armor, weapons and technologies. Often, their economy and belief/social control systems are upended.

 

[Exorcet]

Only if they like concrete. Maybe we're entertainment (unknowingly, like The Truman Show), but if so, we lack any evidence to suggest this is the case, or to suggest that such an arrangement would head south for us. Also it seems... unlikely. How entertained would you be with a hidden video camera watching cave people live out their lives?

That sounds like the kind of thing people would watch. Maybe not everyone, but a certain subset. Although the aliens wouldn't be human people (unless they are for some reason, like maybe the Earth is the planetary version of South Sentinel Island originally colonized by a tiny group of anti-technology cultists, though they'd have to have messed with genetics to make us blend in) so maybe they would have a completely different idea of what is interesting or not.

Now scientifically speaking, assuming they haven't run this all through in simulation and found every permutation of possible biological creature in every environment, they might be interested in what develops on Earth. But so that they can cultivate it? I think we have to presuppose that they can synthesize a better dolphin than we can.

I do agree that if they are sufficiently advanced they would probably have little need for Earth. Maybe they would stop by to collect some DNA just to have for a rainy day, but after that they might not care what happens to the planet. However we could ask what is the lowest level of technology a civilization needs to explore space? Is crossing the galaxy easier than building a Jupiter brain to simulate it on? Personally I find it kind of hard to imagine what human technology will look like after maybe 200 years. I don't what technology will experience the most growth over that time and what might run into brick walls. Then you also have the chance of significant disasters to disrupt civilization in such a way that we lose some technology but not others.

 

[PeterJB]

Don't be kink-shaming the aliens.

Also, if YouTube has taught me anything it's that people who post the most inane things get millions and millions of views. Who knew there was an entire genre of YouTube videos that focused on people just eating? I think there's one that's pretty popular that's just a girl eating different kinds of bread.

One of my favourite YouTubers is a guy in New England who unclogs storm drains and culverts for fun.

 

[kikie]

Please read the Brookings Institution report,

I can't find it.

 

[Danoff]

It's happened before, over and over again. Remember? When you read the Brooking's Institution report?

You mean from creatures that do not have the ability to navigate dimensions or travel faster than light? Because that does make a rather enormous difference.

Don't be kink-shaming the aliens.

Also, if YouTube has taught me anything it's that people who post the most inane things get millions and millions of views. Who knew there was an entire genre of YouTube videos that focused on people just eating? I think there's one that's pretty popular that's just a girl eating different kinds of bread.

Don't think I didn't consider sex as a possible motivator. There are some fantastic books that include that, unfortunately I'd give away spoilers if I said the name but... it's a consideration. In that book though, it was we who discovered FTL travel and were interesting from a sexual perspective to a less developed species. Makes a big difference.

I would imagine that an advanced biology would also be advanced from the perspective of sex, either in bypassing it completely, or in tailoring biology to it specifically (I suppose it's possible that they never needed it in the first place, but that seems unlikely based on what we know about gene propagation, which is the underpinning of life as we know it). We humans would have as much to offer as, say, an apple pie. Ok I'll stop here.

Maybe not cultivate. Its possible they just like their recipe books and the racial Porpoise jokes, I mean they maybe an advanced civilisation but still racist a-hats and bad cooks.

I still don't think they'd be eating, at least not the way you or I think of it.

That doesn't matter. Everything concerning aliens is not credible and merely speculation. That doesn't mean that people (me, scientists, everyone) can't speculate about aliens if they are hostile or friendly.

Well I think some people try to put forth credible theories, like @Dotini's Brookings Institution Report. But theories based on what humans have done (which is our big example of technologically advanced societies interacting with less tech savvy groups) don't particularly apply to a species which has advanced to the point of interstellar travel. That might have been less apparent in the 60s than it is today, as science continues to develop in so many areas much faster than FTL dvelopment.

Please read the Brookings Institution report, kikie. Then you'll know that entire civilizations have declined and perished upon encountering advanced foreigners with their armor, weapons and technologies. Often, their economy and belief/social control systems are upended.

See my response to kikie right above this.

That sounds like the kind of thing people would watch. Maybe not everyone, but a certain subset. Although the aliens wouldn't be human people (unless they are for some reason, like maybe the Earth is the planetary version of South Sentinel Island originally colonized by a tiny group of anti-technology cultists, though they'd have to have messed with genetics to make us blend in) so maybe they would have a completely different idea of what is interesting or not.

Even if it were true, and we lack any and all evidence to support this, we also lack an understanding of how this goes south for us without grafting a great deal of low-tech human thinking.

I do agree that if they are sufficiently advanced they would probably have little need for Earth. Maybe they would stop by to collect some DNA just to have for a rainy day, but after that they might not care what happens to the planet. However we could ask what is the lowest level of technology a civilization needs to explore space? Is crossing the galaxy easier than building a Jupiter brain to simulate it on? Personally I find it kind of hard to imagine what human technology will look like after maybe 200 years. I don't what technology will experience the most growth over that time and what might run into brick walls. Then you also have the chance of significant disasters to disrupt civilization in such a way that we lose some technology but not others.

It does look like some basic understanding of certain physical phenomena is required to possibly achieve FTL or inter-dimensional travel. Especially an understanding of quantum physics and spacetime, which, I don't see any way around this, requires an understanding of computing that lends itself to huge developments in other areas. I find it somewhat non-credible to suggest that a species could achieve FTL or interdimensional travel without first altering their own biological makeup, for example.

 

[kikie]

Well I think some people try to put forth credible theories, like @Dotini's Brookings Institution Report. But theories based on what humans have done (which is our big example of technologically advanced societies interacting with less tech savvy groups) don't particularly apply to a species which has advanced to the point of interstellar travel. That might have been less apparent in the 60s than it is today, as science continues to develop in so many areas much faster than FTL dvelopment.

Good answer. 👍