all 500pp MR cars ovetster or understeer?

[DolHaus]

but i thought the harder the springs would get the more understeer or oversteer you would get

And herein lies the problem. If you want to run low then you have to run hard
If your tyres are grippy enough to maintain grip at stiffer spring rates then you will be ok, if not then you can't run low ride height

Every tuning change has gains and losses, there is no fix all solution to any problem. Doing one thing will affect some aspects positively but other aspects negatively. You have to find the best compromise to suit your situation. This is why they call it tuning and not fixing.

 

[Ceolix]

so what would be the difference, if i had low height and stiffer springs
or high height and smooth springs?

for me the low height and stiffer springs, the car would turn good
although it would be bouncy at the roads.

and the high height and smooth springs, the car wouldn't be bouncy
but couldn't turn good, due to the smooth springs.

but wouldn't the both examples could be fix with dampers adjustment?

 

[DolHaus]

so what would be the difference, if i had low height and stiffer springs
or high height and smooth springs?

for me the low height and stiffer springs, the car would turn good
although it would be bouncy at the roads.

and the high height and smooth springs, the car wouldn't be bouncy
but couldn't turn good, due to the smooth springs.

but wouldn't the both examples could be fix with dampers adjustment?

Stiffer springs = slower weight transfer + more high speed stability
Softer springs = faster weight transfer + reduced stability

Low ride height = more stability + reduced suspension travel
High ride height = less stable + increased suspension travel

Tight corners need faster weight transfer (soft). Stiff springs will cause understeer.
High speed corners need better controlled weight transfer (stiff). Soft springs will cause body roll and lose speed.

Springs control weight transfer
Dampers control how fast the springs can react

 

[Ceolix]

Stiffer springs = slower weight transfer + more high speed stability
Softer springs = faster weight transfer + reduced stability

Low ride height = more stability + reduced suspension travel
High ride height = less stable + increased suspension travel

Tight corners need faster weight transfer (soft). Stiff springs will cause understeer.
High speed corners need better controlled weight transfer (stiff). Soft springs will cause body roll and lose speed.

Springs control weight transfer
Dampers control how fast the springs can react

but the stiffer the springs are, the transfer weight should be faster
because they will be compress and extend faster due to their stiffness and cause
understeer or oversteer. am i missing something?

 

[DolHaus]

but the stiffer the springs are, the transfer weight should be faster
because they will be compress and extend faster due to their stiffness and cause
understeer or oversteer. am i missing something?

They compress slower and extend faster due to their stiffness
The slow compression prevents weight transfer causing understeer on the front wheels and oversteer on the rear, the fast extension can unsettle the car on exit causing oversteer.

 

[Ceolix]

They compress slower and extend faster due to their stiffness
The slow compression prevents weight transfer causing understeer on the front wheels and oversteer on the rear, the fast extension can unsettle the car on exit causing oversteer.

i made my car with low ride height
and strong springs, and it understeered so much.
if the lowest the ride height is and also it's centre of gravity, and the weight will be less distributed
why would i have understeer, if stiff springs would help the weight distribute?
i should have understeer with soft springs.
man i dont get this at all, i'm getting frustrated

 

[DolHaus]

i made my car with low ride height
and strong springs, and it understeered so much.
if the lowest the ride height is and also it's centre of gravity
why would i have understeer, if stiff springs would help the weight distribute?
i should have understeer with soft springs.
man i dont get this at all, i'm getting frustrated

Is that not what I told you would happen?
Think about what you are saying here, why would stiffer springs help weight transfer?

 

[Ceolix]

Is that not what I told you would happen?
Think about what you are saying here, why would stiffer springs help weight transfer?

because the stiffer the springs are, they cause understeer/oversteer?
so the springs get compressed more easily

 

[DolHaus]

because the stiffer the springs are, they cause understeer/oversteer?
so the springs get compressed more easily

You're either trolling me or you truly don't understand what is going on even though I have explained in simplified terms everything you have asked.
Either way, I'm done here. Try reading my tuning guide or Hami's, they're both in the tuning forum

 

[Ceolix]

You're either trolling me or you truly don't understand what is going on even though I have explained in simplified terms everything you have asked.
Either way, I'm done here. Try reading my tuning guide or Hami's, they're both in the tuning forum

man i'm not trolling or something
i simply dont understand how stiff springs slow the weight transfer
when the stiffer they are the more understeer or oversteer you get.

 

[Thorin Cain]

As @DolHaus said stiffer springs compress slower and extend faster, so how does this relate to weight transfer?
To move the weight to the front during braking, the front springs need to compress and the rear springs need to extend. Using stiff springs at the front and soft springs at the rear means the front end is harder to compress and the rear will not extend enough to allow the weight to move towards the front of the car.

This will in most cases cause understeer, but in some rear heavy cars(MR or RR) it can help to cut down on the amount of oversteer that is common with these car types.

On the other hand, Soft front springs and hard rear springs have the opposite effect. The front end will compress easier and the rear springs will extend quicker, this will move the weight to the front of the car during braking and will make the rear lighter allowing for better rotation (or oversteer).

In short if you want more weight at the front, soften the front springs or use harder rear springs. or do a little of both.

To get less weight at the front use harder front springs or soften the rear springs, or do a little of both.

That is how soft and hard springs cause understeer/oversteer and how they control the weight shift.

Understand now?

 

[DolHaus]

man i'm not trolling or something
i simply dont understand how stiff springs slow the weight transfer
when the stiffer they are the more understeer or oversteer you get.

One more time then.

A soft spring is easy to compress
A stiff spring is hard to compress

How a car handles depends on how it manages weight transfer to the outside wheels. When weight moves from one side of the car to the other (weight transfer) it is opposed by the springs/dampers. The weight transfer must be fast enough to allow for direction change but controlled enough to reduce body roll and instability.
If the springs are soft then they can react quickly because they resist change less, this means that the weight can be transferred from side to side easily facilitating quick direction change. As a downside, this allows body roll in fast corners that pulls the car outwards during fast, high load corners.
If the springs are stiff they resist change more and only react under extremely high loads, this prevents proper weight shift and therefore quick direction changes are impossible. Body roll is reduced so the car pulls outwards less during hard cornering.


Imagine yourself on a playground spring horse:

You are rocking back and forth and the spring is resisting your weight transfer. The harder you rock, the closer to the ground you will get. Lets say if you put your full weight on a forward/backward lean you will just about touch the ground before the spring recoils. This represents the ideal spring rate, it is responsive enough to do what you want but you are not hitting the ground.

Now we have replaced the spring with a stiffer one, is it now easier or harder to go forward and backwards? Much harder, try as you might, you will not be able to get the same range of motion unless you take a run up and jump on it. This represents a setup that is too stiff, it is resistant to change and prevents a full range of motion but on the plus side you will never hit the ground.

If we replaced the spring with a much softer one we would face the opposite problem. It would be much easier to go back and forward but you would be risking hitting the ground every time. This represents a setup that is too soft, weight transfer is fast and easy but slightly out of control and frequently requires more travel than the ride height can provide.

 

[Thorin Cain]

Imagine yourself on a playground spring horse:

You are rocking back and forth and the spring is resisting your weight transfer. The harder you rock, the closer to the ground you will get. Lets say if you put your full weight on a forward/backward lean you will just about touch the ground before the spring recoils. This represents the ideal spring rate, it is responsive enough to do what you want but you are not hitting the ground.

Now we have replaced the spring with a stiffer one, is it now easier or harder to go forward and backwards? Much harder, try as you might, you will not be able to get the same range of motion unless you take a run up and jump on it. This represents a setup that is too stiff, it is resistant to change and prevents a full range of motion but on the plus side you will never hit the ground.

If we replaced the spring with a much softer one we would face the opposite problem. It would be much easier to go back and forward but you would be risking hitting the ground every time. This represents a setup that is too soft, weight transfer is fast and easy but slightly out of control and frequently requires more travel than the ride height can provide.

Nice analogy, not seen that one before.👍

Been saving it for a special occasion?

 

[DolHaus]

Nice analogy, not seen that one before.👍

Been saving it for a special occasion?

It was the simplest way I could think of describing it without resorting to crayons

 

[Ceolix]

Oh i think i got it.
so softer springs will let the weight transfer travel easier.
if i put soft springs on front wheels and stiff on rear
when the car brakes the weight will go to the front faster
causing understeer when braking and causing oversteer when accelerate
because the weight will go all of a sudden to the rear wheels.

if the rear springs were very soft, it would oversteer when accelerate and also
if turning hard. and if stiff springs on front it would be bouncy and understeer.

is it this?

anyway on gt6 description they say the stiffer the rear springs are the more oversteer i will get

 

[Ceolix]

Stiffer springs = slower weight transfer + more high speed stability
Softer springs = faster weight transfer + reduced stability

Low ride height = more stability + reduced suspension travel
High ride height = less stable + increased suspension travel

Tight corners need faster weight transfer (soft). Stiff springs will cause understeer.
High speed corners need better controlled weight transfer (stiff). Soft springs will cause body roll and lose speed.

Springs control weight transfer
Dampers control how fast the springs can react

you said softer springs will compress faster
well, i made my.car springs soft on rear and it didnt
oversteer, it only did.oversteer when i made the springs stiff

 

[jblackrevo9]

MR car are a but tricky. Usually the weight is bias and stays in the back of the vehicle period.you want the front springs more tighter,slightly than the rear but not too much to cause under steer. When you go around a curve with a mr drivetrain,the weight in the is the reason why it becomes unstable.the culprit is the loss of contact of tire and the absence of center of gravity. Dampers (extension) needs to be more stiff since they control the actual weight of the car. Also putting weight in from of the car helps reduce the tendency of over steering. Positive toe provides stability with the add on of under steer. Also sway bars need to be stiff to control the erratic body roll these drivetrain have around corners. mr are going to oversteer no matter what but you can limit the behavior. Also you can manipulate the weight distribution to suit you driving habits. Limit your acceleration sensitivity and raise brake sensitivity. Torque help control car from rogue suspension movement such as braking and the car moves to the left without human error

 

[jblackrevo9]

FYI ver 1.09 update has fixed the suspension problem and feel more realistic. You can apply real life physics to game somewhat .