America: are we too arrogant?
- Thread starter Jetboy.
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When the bashing commences, I suspect America will do fine, but you might wanna duck!
Replete with faults though America may be, Americans will rightly. and vehemently, reject the notion that any of the 9/11 victims deserved what happened to them that day. Is America, as a nation, too arrogant in it's conduct in the world? Absolutely. Was 9/11 an appropriate response? No.
I think tying the question to the September 11 atrocity has completely and unfairly tainted the question.
I have some serious issues with how the US conducts its affairs both internally and externally, and arrogance, particularly with the current administration, is one of them (please note that this is directed at the US Government politically, and not any of you individually).
...but no-one deserved what happened on September 11.
I have some serious issues with how the US conducts its affairs both internally and externally, and arrogance, particularly with the current administration, is one of them (please note that this is directed at the US Government politically, and not any of you individually).
...but no-one deserved what happened on September 11.
Joey D
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- 47,571
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
Yes sure as America we tend to go to far on a lot of different things. But we are brought up to be constantly told we are the best and know one can touch us.
Did we need a waker up call? yes. Was 9/11 the right kinda? By all means no!
Did we need a waker up call? yes. Was 9/11 the right kinda? By all means no!
- 267
I believe the US, needs new government. I say we at GTP run the country, no one would whine about gas because it would be 1.25 (2.00 in Ohio), we would all be doing100+ down the highway and disreguarding traffic laws, gives a whole new meaning to racing to work, and I think the "Eye for an Eye" works here for everything else? I say can I get an Amen!?
- 1,262
^I agree, but I think most not all americans are arrogant but its not there fault people are being filled propaganda and are being manipulated to think that way
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
Oh, and the Canadian government isn't blinding their own citizens with propaganda?
Americans, pre-9/11 were, for the most part not very educated about world events or even cared about them. But, post-9/11, I think more Americans do care what goes on in the world around them.
Americans, pre-9/11 were, for the most part not very educated about world events or even cared about them. But, post-9/11, I think more Americans do care what goes on in the world around them.
- 12,993
- USA! USA!
I don't think you can be arrogant enough.
And by you, I mean anyone in general.
And by you, I mean anyone in general.
- 267
Seriously, I think if the people of the US were not slammed in the face with arrogance as soon as their umbellical cord was cut than our country would be off much better. You know we are the richest country, the "land of the free", and a place of oppertunities. Well maybe we should start working on those qualities and aiding countries that need help and not butting in and creating a war in itself.
Danoff
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- Mile High City
Americans, like almost any country on the planet, have a strong sense of nationality. I don't think its fair to criticize us considering that everyone is guilty of the same crime.
What we're not guilty of, what is not a crime, is believing that we have the formula for success. That can be supported objectively. What is terrible is people who believe that their country is great simply because they live in it, and there is some of that here too.
Anyway, don't point fingers. Pot - kettle - black... that kind of thing.
At the same time, our government structure (or at least, our original government structure) is objectively a model for the world. I know most of you are going to think that this is an example of arrogance, but think for a moment about who is the sole superpower left in the world. Think about how long we've had to get to that point, and think about the policies that drive our economy and how they point to success. It's easy to confuse that with arrogance.
What we're not guilty of, what is not a crime, is believing that we have the formula for success. That can be supported objectively. What is terrible is people who believe that their country is great simply because they live in it, and there is some of that here too.
Anyway, don't point fingers. Pot - kettle - black... that kind of thing.
At the same time, our government structure (or at least, our original government structure) is objectively a model for the world. I know most of you are going to think that this is an example of arrogance, but think for a moment about who is the sole superpower left in the world. Think about how long we've had to get to that point, and think about the policies that drive our economy and how they point to success. It's easy to confuse that with arrogance.
- 2,767
That's very unfortunate, and the level of ignorance and indifference shown by the vast majority of the population really is a plague in current democraties. The world most powerful and influent country's government is chosen by a group of people that, as you said, don't have a clue or just don't care about what the repercussions of this government actions and policies will be, except for what is directly affecting them in the short term. They often vote for the ones that gives the best "show" in their electoral campaign. This show is financed by wealthy corporations who knows they'll have way more gratitude than the ones who actually bought the show.
Yes, 9-11 was a totally inappropriate reaction to anything that could happen in the past. But it's very sad that it took an event as this to "wake up" not only America, but the rest of the world. and I write "wake up" because the only reaction that came in the mind of a lot of people is retaliation, instead of actually questionning themselves about the events that led to these acts of terrorism. I guess the sleep is a very deep one, on both "evil" sides... and i'm quite certain that wasn't the last nightmare of the night.
Danoff
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- Mile High City
No I totally see what that is seen as arrogant and shortsighted. It's seen as arrogant and shortsighted by people who can't see past their own nationalism far enough to view the facts objectively.
If you look at government structure from the point of view of the tendancies of our species, the original US government structure is the right way to do business (or at least as close as humans have come in history). But that requires some degree of objectivity to see and I understand why lots of people can't manage that.
- 2,767
Yes you could. Go on the street and just ask people about some random political or international issues, and ask their opinions about it. Your mileage may vary depending on the location of the experiment (I bet there is quite a difference between the Harvard campus and some poor suburbs), but the average Joe usually don't have a clue, or a very shallow picture of the situation. And some people even vote because a candidate is good looking or because their family always voted on that side, and I've seen a lot of this.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
Actually, danoff, I'm going with JP on that one. YOU may be aware of what's going on in the world, but you are probably in the 10-15% of the population that does. Look at any major survey that follows this type of stuff; when questioned about current events and issues, a majority Americans are pathetically uninformed.
I should also point out that many Europeans and Australians do not perform too hot either (UK, this is you). But Americans do take the cake for being clueless about what goes on in the world.
C'mon almost half of us can't be bothered enough with our government to even vote. America isn't arrogant. Its just bored with itself.
BTW, this topic is completely lame. Arrogant people deserve to die? WTF?
M
Danoff
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- Mile High City
///M
The statement I was disagreeing with was:
I asked him to back it up and thought it was off base.
The reason I think its off base is that I think that Americans, for the most part, are moderately educated about world events and care about them a fair amount.
What does "moderate", "fair", and "not very" mean in this context? It's hard to define. He might be able to back up the claim in the first half of the statement, but the second half is tough.
But if you take the second part of that statement and rephrase it, it says.. "most americans don't care about world events at all."
Do you agree with that? I don't. I would argue that most Americans watch the news or read the paper. That means they care. To what degree is open for argument.
The statement I was disagreeing with was:
I asked him to back it up and thought it was off base.
The reason I think its off base is that I think that Americans, for the most part, are moderately educated about world events and care about them a fair amount.
What does "moderate", "fair", and "not very" mean in this context? It's hard to define. He might be able to back up the claim in the first half of the statement, but the second half is tough.
But if you take the second part of that statement and rephrase it, it says.. "most americans don't care about world events at all."
Do you agree with that? I don't. I would argue that most Americans watch the news or read the paper. That means they care. To what degree is open for argument.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
But it is the One True Key to Success - though I doubt that you are seeing it the way that I mean it.
The original, fundamental system of the US Constitutional government is the best form of government to date. It allows for a huge amount of self-determination on the part of individuals, within a framework that is designed to protect those individuals from coersion. There has been no system before or since that has come close.
What other people see as "arrogance" comes from their inability to see past the surface of the US into the true meaning. They are not alone in this - many Americans, in fact most of our governmental officials, are equally blind to it. That is a flaw in the viewer, and does not prove a flaw in the subject viewed.
This is not unique to Americans. We are not the geopolitical scholars of the world, true. But we are not global village idiots, either. I'm sure you can walk through London, Paris, or Oslo and pick up a large sample of people who are just as clueless.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
Sorry, but if you take it as a stand-alone statement, I do. Used as part of character indicment argument against the United States on the whole, I do not.
These are just two surveys that popped up on a google search.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/highlights.html
Particularly, it appears our young people are mostly clueless about anything outside their daily lives. Most of them don't know where Iraq is. I don't have any links handy right now, but I've seen a few surveys of the same sort which show appalling ignorance of world affairs from people in the US, Mexico, Canada and many EU countries (yes, you again UK).
But you want to position this information as part of some indictment of America or the western world in general, it losses strength very quickly.
Statements like "America needed a wake up call" pisses me off. As I'm sure it'd piss off anyone who has a functioning brain and moral system.
M
///M-Spec
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JP, I want to focus on this statement you made.
What exactly should people be questioning? What events are you talking about? Are you suggesting that there is a causal relationship between the general American public's understanding of world events and what happened on 9/11?
M
- 9,589
- GTP_DelphicR
- Esoterik1
Great answer...... I'm with vat_man.....
The US government, and the current presidential occupation angers me to no end. War profitering, misuse of US funds, puting our country so far in debt we may never get out of it, etc... etc....
I could go on for days, but I don't want to rant too much, at this time.......
- 2,767
The perception on my own country doesn't have anything to do with my views on America. If you wish to start a thread on what's wrong with Canada or Quebec, go ahead, and I'll be glad to point out stupid acts of my government when they are, and that's quite easy to do.
agreed
I've found an essai on the main reasons and sources of hatred towards America worldwide, with some facts and explanations of what led to this resentment and to acts of terrorism. I don't agree with some points in it, but it does a good job telling why Americans are seen as arrogant by the outside world. I'm quite sure I'll get a few posts with words such as biaised, inane, ignorant, crap, anti-american or terrorism... in reply. Even if you deny all of what's in there, I don't think we're going to make people change their minds about it with any kind of warfare.
Why do people hate America?
- Please note how the british author mentions many times how others country are also to blame, or have done far worst.
-If you stop before the end, at least take the time to read its conclusion.
Also, I'd like to restate that in no way that any of these arguments are valid to justify terrorists actions. But I think our understanding of those are a better step to to avoid future events such as 9/11 than any preemptive war we could launch.
- 3,425
If we kill all the terrorist then they can't attack us . So I can see how that would work better than me trying to understand them. Premtive works very well thank you ..a dead terrorist is a good start ..etc. etc. while we sit around discussing how arrogant we are they are sitting around figuring out how they can create a new world order of talibans and strapping on the dynamite belts.
More bullets less bullpoopy !
gotta go wash my truck and feed the hogs..
while we sit around discussing how arrogant we are they are sitting around figuring out how they can create a new world order of talibans and strapping on the dynamite belts.More bullets less bullpoopy !
gotta go wash my truck and feed the hogs..
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
I read this last night at work while waiting for some servers to reboot. Credit to the author who explains his neutrality at the beginning of the essay, but most of what follows is a cockamamie bunch of shallow and empty reasons to hate an entire nation of people.
Obesity? Rampant consumerism? Patriotism? HA! There are one, perhaps two legit reasons in the entire list, but the rest is either wholly debatable or dismisable junk.
I don't have time to get into each line item today, being light on sleep and busy at work. I am certain danoff, neon_duke or milefile (if he ever gets off the dole and gets back to goofing off at work like the rest of us
) can do a equally or better job at de-bunking this list than I.danoff, I haven't forgotten about the other line of argument in this thread, I just don't have time to find the reference material right now.
M
- 2,767
I believe too that some arguments in this essai should have been moved to its "invalid critics of America" section, like the ones you stated (obesity being the most absurd of all), but the others are still very debatable as you said. And there is a difference between criticism of a government's actions and hatred towards the people of a nation, and we have to keep people from crossing the line between those.
The points that would be most relevant in this case would be the reasons he cited that even moderated muslims were agreeing with, reasons that may turn many of them on the wrong side in the future.
But as ledhed said, we could just kill them all before they do.
The points that would be most relevant in this case would be the reasons he cited that even moderated muslims were agreeing with, reasons that may turn many of them on the wrong side in the future.
But as ledhed said, we could just kill them all before they do.
