America - The Official Thread

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I have lived in Texas/Oklahoma practically my entire life. So, tornadoes are common occurrence, earthquakes... Never.

I was in 29 Palms for some training and got to experience a "baby" earthquake while I was in a hotel. Those things are crazy!
 
FoolKiller
I bet money Romney only mentions the birther stuff when directly questioned, and will keep his answer neutral.

Anyone who seriously asked that question since 2008 is an Afterbirther.
 
What's with these news stories about 4.5 earthquakes "shaking" Los Angeles? First of all, they get 4.5 mag quakes every week. Second of all, a 4.5 couldn't shake a cup of Jello much less a whole city.

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A couple of weeks ago when I was on holiday to new york we visited the Federal Reserve. Our guide there was explaining how the federal reserve basicly controls interest and employment by adjusting the market themselves. My dad mentioned to him how this seemed abit strange when america oftenly says that they support free market, yet were described by him that the markets were adjusted by the Government (federal reserve is technically seperate however they still are connected.) The guy had no real answer and just said, well the federal reserve is working for the best for America.

What are your opinions on this, how free market is america, is at as free as is made out??
 
^ It's something that makes conspiracy theorists crazy. The Zeitgeist project talk a lot about it. How the Rockafellers own it and use it to control the world etc.
 
A couple of weeks ago when I was on holiday to new york we visited the Federal Reserve. Our guide there was explaining how the federal reserve basicly controls interest and employment by adjusting the market themselves. My dad mentioned to him how this seemed abit strange when america oftenly says that they support free market, yet were described by him that the markets were adjusted by the Government (federal reserve is technically seperate however they still are connected.) The guy had no real answer and just said, well the federal reserve is working for the best for America.

What are your opinions on this, how free market is america, is at as free as is made out??

Your dad is right. America is not nearly as free as even Americans seem to think.
 
ExigeEvan
No, he got jailed for re-directing waterways. Something that can have major implications down stream.

Runoff counts as waterways? I know he basically dug three huge ponds on his property, so we aren't just talking rain barrels (although the way the law is worded and the charge he was given those could be technically in violation of the law), but he is capturing rainwater that fell on his land. I also know that local officials claim he is redirecting streams, but no one has yet to show a picture of these streams they speak of and he denies redirecting. Just pictures of the ponds strategically placed along a wood line, [url="http://www.kezi.com/man-arrested-for-harvesting-rain-water/]in a way local fire officials support.[/url] Unless his land is a primary source of water for that river it is absurd that he is serving jail time for this. Especially since some reports say he has had them there for years.

If I want to build a pond on my land for irrigation, animal herds, or wildfire prevention it is my land. And I'm not speaking from a lack of knowledge here. I live on a hillside next to a stream that feeds into a major river. My rain barrel prevents water from getting to that river. Am I a bad person, doing something that should be criminal? No. I am circumventing the watering bans that have been put in place in order to continue watering my vegetable plants without receiving warnings for using water I am paying per gallon for. And I get to keep eating fresh vegetables for free.

Look out! I'm redirecting waterways in order to circumvent the law, avoid paying for water, and reduce my grocery trips. I'm risking the environment, flipping off the local government, and causing a negative impact on local commerce. Lock me up.
 
I had a 1/2 arsed interest in that story when I saw it here. I googled a bit but did not find what I would consider a full story. Having said that...

I figured he placed the ponds to catch seasonal creeks or some sort(big deal). He did get permits for the ponds some years ago and then they yanked them. The most interesting thing I did find was the State law in question, it's worth a read f/k.
 
arora
The most interesting thing I did find was the State law in question, it's worth a read f/k.
The one that says all water is public water and so you have to have a permit to do anything with it?

That's what I'm referring to when I say my rain barrel would be illegal.
 
Runoff counts as waterways? I know he basically dug three huge ponds on his property, so we aren't just talking rain barrels (although the way the law is worded and the charge he was given those could be technically in violation of the law), but he is capturing rainwater that fell on his land. I also know that local officials claim he is redirecting streams, but no one has yet to show a picture of these streams they speak of and he denies redirecting. Just pictures of the ponds strategically placed along a wood line, [url="http://www.kezi.com/man-arrested-for-harvesting-rain-water/]in a way local fire officials support.[/url] Unless his land is a primary source of water for that river it is absurd that he is serving jail time for this. Especially since some reports say he has had them there for years.

If I want to build a pond on my land for irrigation, animal herds, or wildfire prevention it is my land. And I'm not speaking from a lack of knowledge here. I live on a hillside next to a stream that feeds into a major river. My rain barrel prevents water from getting to that river. Am I a bad person, doing something that should be criminal? No. I am circumventing the watering bans that have been put in place in order to continue watering my vegetable plants without receiving warnings for using water I am paying per gallon for. And I get to keep eating fresh vegetables for free.

Look out! I'm redirecting waterways in order to circumvent the law, avoid paying for water, and reduce my grocery trips. I'm risking the environment, flipping off the local government, and causing a negative impact on local commerce. Lock me up.
As far as the (albeit brief) article states:
“diverting water from streams”
Of which a 'stream' would be defined as a permanent flow of water unaffected by short term weather conditions and with no major tributaries. This doesn't refer to flows that exist seasonally or after adverse weather conditions.

Water that flows from outside your land should be allowed free passage through unless you have a permit to redirect it or it is a threat to your property (flooding).Water that precipitates onto your land is yours to do with as you please.

Why is this important? If everyone decides they want a bit of that waterflow as it makes it's way then eventually there'll be none left in the flow. This isn't just an environmental issue, but a massive economical issue as well for industries that rely on the water flow (shipping, fishing, power plants, leisure etc).

Now I this is reference to UK law and this is the America thread, but it would appear they're not too far apart.
 
ExigeEvan
As far as the (albeit brief) article states:

Of which a 'stream' would be defined as a permanent flow of water unaffected by short term weather conditions and with no major tributaries. This doesn't refer to flows that exist seasonally or after adverse weather conditions.
A point that is at the heart of the disagreement as he claims he is not damming the streams themselves but runoff that would otherwise run into those streams. At which point do we determine it is diverting water from the stream(s)?

Water that flows from outside your land should be allowed free passage through unless you have a permit to redirect it or it is a threat to your property (flooding).Water that precipitates onto your land is yours to do with as you please.
When did we go from a time when you purchased land with a stream because it was a useful resource to that stream being public jurisdiction? I don't know about your country but around here you can tour old settlements where someone would have local streams diverted for farming, mining, or even running a water mill. Seeing that we went from a time when owning property meant something to this kind of government bullying and you have to beg and pay money to do anything, and maybe be told you can't, on your own property is sad and depressing. This is just more of the kind of thing where I can't add on to my home without spending thousands in inspections just to get a 50/50 chance of being allowed to. It is ridiculous and is the complete opposite of the hope and vision that led to people spreading out west.

Why is this important? If everyone decides they want a bit of that waterflow as it makes it's way then eventually there'll be none left in the flow. This isn't just an environmental issue, but a massive economical issue as well for industries that rely on the water flow (shipping, fishing, power plants, leisure etc).
I grew up in an area where nearly everyone has an old well on their property, meaning there was a time when everyone diverted that water, and it was at a time when businesses literally relied on the water to power their equipment, like an old mill. Sorry, but I don't buy the community needing it excuse.

Furthermore, the reservoirs were as much as 37 years old and he was granted permits, after the Oregon law was pointed out to him, in 2003. If this was such an issue why was it ignored longer than I've been alive? I personally believe it shows the kind of change we have had in this country where we have gone from minimal government intrusion and a respect for personal property and privacy. What was once seen as perfectly acceptable is now a crime.

How do we not commit criminal acts when the government suddenly deems your daily activity a crime? It is suspicious that government only maintains power when stopping crime and continues to turn more of us into criminals by changing the laws.
 
The thing about it to me is that today they put this man in jail for "diverting streams" or whatever you want to call it. Then tomorrow, these government agencies, which are unconstitutional to begin with, start making up new laws. Such as, you forget to turn your car wash bucket upside down after using it, an official sees it collecting "public rainwater," and you receive a fine for not obtaining a permit to collect the water and/or getting the bucket inspected to make sure it is a suitable rain collecting device.

The example I gave may seem pretty extreme, but I honestly believe this is the path our government is headed down unless major change occurs.
 
Well,

It's far too easy to obtain a gun in this country, regardless of whether or not you ever plan to massacre people with it at a movie theater, temple, or High School.

The overwhelming majority or people using the largest % of government resources and money provide, on average, little to society and rarely give a &$?%.

Generally speaking - Parenting skills are in a significant and constant decline in this country and have been for some time now. Those who are raising good kids are setting those children up for a golden future, where they will be the bosses of those other kids, generally speaking.

People who choose to send their children to private or parochial schools (grade school/high school) and pay tuition, should have their tax liabiltiy adjusted down to match the amount currently taken from them and used for public schools that no one in their household attends. Everyone should pay for police, roads, health department, etc of course.

The gap is widenimg between those with solid careers that include growth opportunities (often but not always those who own businesses and or have college degrees) and those who will be stuck (usually by choice although they will scream otherwise) in low to medium paying hourly jobs. Increased college costs are furthering his wide chasm. The world needs people to clean restrooms too though.

Generally speaking, most Labor Unions are an absolute joke. A Gorcery Store Hourly workers Union in one company but not needed or given a moments thought by the other four stores in town? Beyond ridiculous. Unions are very very good at helping poor workers keep pretty good jobs, however. Yea for them. How Union officials sleep at night is hard to understand.

If every sentence for every future crime committed were doubled tomorrow, America would be better off for it. Building new prisons would be required, but doing so without comforts beyond what many people have at home would be a good choice. Prison should automatically incur a lifestyle equal to that of minimum wage. Nothing more Roof over your head, food, some clothes, an occassional treat but not many of them.

Something is wrong with a market (Auto Repair) that has developed a culture and prices such $75 hour or more for labor. Five people working on five vehicles EACH customer paying $75+ per hour? wtf? Why is every customer paying the hourly rate of multiple (even all) employees at the same time when only 1 or 2 will touch his car?

The legalize marijuana movement is double face palm bad.

Inflation is real, and clearly constant. Plan for it, adjust to it, and get over it please.

The number of countries with better health care systems than the USA is EMBARRASSINGLY high.

The Olympics kick all kinds of azz.
 
BJBEOSmitty
A Gorcery Store Hourly workers Union in one company but not needed or given a moments thought by the other four stores in town?
Hence the term right-to-work. You can't force a union where it is not wanted.

If every sentence for every future crime committed were doubled tomorrow, America would be better off for it.
I can't agree when life sentences and death penalties don't prevent those crimes and I think a large number of crimes shouldn't be crimes.

Something is wrong with a market (Auto Repair) that has developed a culture and prices such $75 hour or more for labor. Five people working on five vehicles EACH customer paying $75+ per hour? wtf? Why is every customer paying the hourly rate of multiple (even all) employees at the same time when only 1 or 2 will touch his car?
Because to the customer, it is worth it. It's all about individual value.

The legalize marijuana movement is double face palm bad.
While alcohol kills thousands every year...

The number of countries with better health care systems than the USA is EMBARRASSINGLY high.
Define better.
 
The example I gave may seem pretty extreme, but I honestly believe this is the path our government is headed down unless major change occurs.

It's not extreme, in fact I'll see your tinfoil and raise you. we are on the path to regulate everything you eat and drink in the name of health care, seat belts and helmets anyone? Have you seen the intrusive thermostat plan? The list goes on and on. You will be considered a paranoid wacko until it is too late, if it's not already. I'm waiting for the day someone tells me how many squares I can use to wipe.

The water deal has a sliver of merit, I live in the desert where it's precious. I think considering neighbors is in order, we had a huge go around with Texas not that many years ago about the rio grande and how we where damming it. But if that guy was impeding seasonal paths with a permit and now is in jail? Gooby plz.

Everyone loves regulation until the one thing they love is regulated. BTW I don't think major change will occur until the economy crashes. Sure, I'm a grumpy old man :D
 
Something is wrong with a market (Auto Repair) that has developed a culture and prices such $75 hour or more for labor. Five people working on five vehicles EACH customer paying $75+ per hour? wtf? Why is every customer paying the hourly rate of multiple (even all) employees at the same time when only 1 or 2 will touch his car?
Not really on topic, but just so people don't misunderstand: Hourly labor you are paying is a repair fee per-car, and does not begin to translate to technician's hourly wages. I won't derail the thread with the details, but like with any business, overhead is unbelievable, and I believe that's where your concern should be.
 
Hence the term right-to-work. You can't force a union where it is not wanted.


I can't agree when life sentences and death penalties don't prevent those crimes


While alcohol kills thousands every year.

1. Not all states have right to work, but they should
2. Ridiculous... You are claiming to know when and why crimes are committed (or even NOT committed) and what was going through the person's mind? Stiffer penalties will never eliminate all crimes. Not a problem though.
3. No it doesn't. Everyone I know who has ever had a drink has never killed anyone in 20 years. It's not the alcohol killing anyone, it's stupid people who killed someone. Double their sentences too, lock them up.
 
A point that is at the heart of the disagreement as he claims he is not damming the streams themselves but runoff that would otherwise run into those streams. At which point do we determine it is diverting water from the stream(s)?
Again, provided the flow entering his land and exiting is unimpeded he can do what he wishes with the water that precipitates onto his property. If he's diverting run-off that originally fell on his property away form the stream I see no problem with that.

When did we go from a time when you purchased land with a stream because it was a useful resource to that stream being public jurisdiction? I don't know about your country but around here you can tour old settlements where someone would have local streams diverted for farming, mining, or even running a water mill. Seeing that we went from a time when owning property meant something to this kind of government bullying and you have to beg and pay money to do anything, and maybe be told you can't, on your own property is sad and depressing. This is just more of the kind of thing where I can't add on to my home without spending thousands in inspections just to get a 50/50 chance of being allowed to. It is ridiculous and is the complete opposite of the hope and vision that led to people spreading out west.
Because it's part of what makes a community exist, certain freedoms have to be lost to allow a community to function without conflict. One of those is certain limitation as to what you can do on your land. What you do to the stream can have massive affect on those downstream of you.

If you can withhold water from those down stream why can't you withhold light by building a large tower? Or withhold access by building a wall?

If you can't accept the pressures of a community then the solution is not to be in one, though that becomes harder and harder as even the most rural areas will now argue over a farmer introducing wind turbines that may spoil a view.

I grew up in an area where nearly everyone has an old well on their property, meaning there was a time when everyone diverted that water, and it was at a time when businesses literally relied on the water to power their equipment, like an old mill. Sorry, but I don't buy the community needing it excuse.
Wells are often fed by aquifers which are either very, very old or fed by local water sources. What limited domestic users might take from an aquifier is often negligible. But introduce a large industry or an increase in small users (as we see in the UK to circumnavigate house pipe bans) and you'll soon see the affect. In the UK atleast I believe the law will change on domestic wells (currently anything less than 4,000 gallons a day doesn't require a license).

If a farmer decides to sink a large or series of bore holes to water his crops and this lowers the water table to below the local domestic systems, is there not a need from the community?

Furthermore, the reservoirs were as much as 37 years old and he was granted permits, after the Oregon law was pointed out to him, in 2003. If this was such an issue why was it ignored longer than I've been alive? I personally believe it shows the kind of change we have had in this country where we have gone from minimal government intrusion and a respect for personal property and privacy. What was once seen as perfectly acceptable is now a crime.
However, having read that extended article (thanks for the link) it very clearly states the Oregon law, and I whole heartedly disagree with it.

So in the circumstances of this man and Oregon law he is morally in the right and shouldn't be facing prosecution.

[EDIT]
3. No it doesn't. Everyone I know who has ever had a drink has never killed anyone in 20 years. It's not the alcohol killing anyone, it's stupid people who killed someone. Double their sentences too, lock them up.
And alcohol in terms of the damage to personal health?

I would argue neither are healthy for you, but why is one legal, and taxed and standardised, and the other not?
Something is wrong with a market (Auto Repair) that has developed a culture and prices such $75 hour or more for labor. Five people working on five vehicles EACH customer paying $75+ per hour? wtf? Why is every customer paying the hourly rate of multiple (even all) employees at the same time when only 1 or 2 will touch his car?
Then buy the tools and get the education and do it yourself. You have that option.
 
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Then buy the tools and get the education and do it yourself. You have that option.

I've changed oil, brakes, struts and suspension work, and a few other things. I make more money with the education I did receive and have a better future in the business I'm currently in... and I'm fully aware I'm allowed to become a mechanic.

I'll politely say no $&/$?!%# way would I make that a career, thank you. If someone mentions to you that popcorn and soda at the movies has a 8,000% mark up do you tell them to open their own theater? :)
 
I'll politely say no $&/$?!%# way would I make that a career, thank you. If someone mentions to you that popcorn and soda at the movies has a 8,000% mark up do you tell them to open their own theater? :)
Yes. But it'd be far cheaper to eat before or take your own.
 
BJBEOSmitty
1. Not all states have right to work, but they should

2. Ridiculous... You are claiming to know when and why crimes are committed (or even NOT committed) and what was going through the person's mind? Stiffer penalties will never eliminate all crimes. Not a problem though.
You are the one claiming increasing penalties will improve this country. I merely pointed out why I don't think the logic works. How are you not claiming to know the when and why by saying tougher penalties will make it better?

3. No it doesn't. Everyone I know who has ever had a drink has never killed anyone in 20 years. It's not the alcohol killing anyone, it's stupid people who killed someone. Double their sentences too, lock them up.
So, it's not the drug but the users. I agree. Why is wanting to legalize marijuana a double-face palm then? I'm just pointing out that use of one is no worse than the use of another.

ExigeEvan
Because it's part of what makes a community exist, certain freedoms have to be lost to allow a community to function without conflict.
Why do I mainly hear this from Europeans? If the freedoms weren't there at first the community wouldn't exist at all. Every community began by people finding a new place to call their own, then more and more joining them. If everyone behaved as they did originally the community could still exist.

One of those is certain limitation as to what you can do on your land. What you do to the stream can have massive affect on those downstream of you.
Can we go back to where I pointed out that unless it is the primary source of water it should not be an issue? What he is doing is not having a massive affect on anyone.

If you can withhold water from those down stream why can't you withhold light by building a large tower?
OK Mr. Burns. My dad dealt with something similar when he cut down a bunch of trees to build a small orchard. The neighbor was upset because it hid my dad's property from her view. My Dad's response: "Sorry, but too bad."

Or withhold access by building a wall?
We call them privacy fences and they are practically a necessity if you build a pool, because if a neighbor drowns in it you are at fault.

If you can't accept the pressures of a community then the solution is not to be in one, though that becomes harder and harder as even the most rural areas will now argue over a farmer introducing wind turbines that may spoil a view.
I will never own property in an urban area for this reason. And when people move next to a farm and then start complaining because the chickens wake them or they smell manure I wish someone would put them in their gorram place. This world has to many real world issues to have to hope not to set off sniveling little whiny cry babies every step of the way.

If a farmer decides to sink a large or series of bore holes to water his crops and this lowers the water table to below the local domestic systems, is there not a need from the community?
If the farmer needs that water he would just by it from the city anyway, or be ruined. So where is the solution? A community let a family lose their source of food, water, shelter, and income or the local water company learns to build a proper reservoir?
BJBEOSmitty
I'll politely say no $&/$?!%# way would I make that a career, thank you.
So, for those who say that about doing it at all it is worth $75/hour.

ExigeEvan
Yes. But it'd be far cheaper to eat before or take your own.
BJBEOSmitty
Are you sure? (rolls eyes)
Having worked at a theater, it depends on your local prices and how many are in your group. If you have kids then it is always cheaper to eat before.
 
"worth" $75 an hour? No... But it is what owners charge, most more than that. A three car garage close to me charges $92 per hour on all labor. Sometimes there are 3 total people working at the shop, including the boss.

If the boss makes $65,000 a year (questionable) and two mechanics make $46,000 per year, (very questionable) the shop still earns $10+ per hour hour from all customers during labor. Not a bad rate to cover supplies and overhead, insurance, etc. As well as the 40 magazine subscriptions in the waiting area by the crappy coffee.
 
It is worth whatever the customer is willing to pay, it's really that simple. Back in the mid 90's I managed an environmental control company in Phoenix, I charged $75.00 an hour labor for myself whenever a customer wanted me to trouble shoot their building systems. I had more work then I knew what to do with. I never considered myself greedy as I had specialized knowledge, a hard work ethic, and apparently people liked me :D

When running up take offs for new construction I'd base my bids on a very high labor rate, I wonder if you have any idea how much it costs to run a business.
 
The business I'm running right now does more than $25,000,000 annually and is very profitable despite enormous overhead, led by Associate Costs of course. With special experience on the Operations side of things, I'm quite knowledgeable thank you. No way for you to know that, admittedly.

Whatever the customer is willing to pay is indeed part of setting prices on any goods or services.
 
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