America - The Official Thread

[prisonermonkeys]

Thousands of people die every year from Asthma related causes and many more are hospitalized. It's far, far more likely to lead to death in the Western world than say not getting vaccinated.

That doesn't address my point. squadops would have us believe that there was a genuine chance that the girl could have died from a severe, sudden-onset asthma attack despite having no medical history of asthma.

Once the bureaucrats write the rules we must all follow them right?

Who says that they were written by bureaucrats in an office on the far side of the country? Most schools get to set their own individual policies.

It amounts to a kind who exercised his own judgment when everyone else was standing around with their thumb up their behinds and he may have saved her life.

You have no evidence of "everyone standing around with their thumb up their behinds" except for a school policy that you dislike without even fully understanding since you only have the kid's side of the story.

Like I said, your attitude is pretty insulting since you're assuming that the staff were unprofessional and unconcerned with the welfare of their students.

 

[FoolKiller]

That doesn't address my point. squadops would have us believe that there was a genuine chance that the girl could have died from a severe, sudden-onset asthma attack despite having no medical history of asthma.

I've avoided this conversation because general standards give a lot of leeway in policy recommendations. The "best" way is still debatable.

That said, this part right here bothers me. A lack of previous medical history of a condition has little bearing on if a medical situation is deadly. In fact, someone with no asthma history that appears to be having an asthma attack would worry me more. That could be anaphylaxis.

To brush aside the notion of being life threatening due to a lack of medical history of the condition is like saying the school shouldn't have an AED because no students have a medical history of heart disease.

Further, as you or the teacher are not doctors you cannot make the sweeping assumption that 1) you know exactly what is happening, especially if there is no history with which to base your assumption, and 2) that a lack of history of the condition means it isn't life threatening. A medical emergency is a medical emergency. Emergency being the key word. Treat it as such, no matter what you think you know, and follow appropriate procedure.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That doesn't address my point. squadops would have us believe that there was a genuine chance that the girl could have died from a severe, sudden-onset asthma attack despite having no medical history of asthma.

Thousands of people die from Asthma related causes every year, I linked the stats already.

Who says that they were written by bureaucrats in an office on the far side of the country? Most schools get to set their own individual policies.

Why are you directly quoting me and then attributing remarks to me that I never made

You have no evidence of "everyone standing around with their thumb up their behinds" except for a school policy that you dislike without even fully understanding since you only have the kid's side of the story.

3 minutes is an awful long time when someone is having an asthma attack so severe they fall off their chair onto the floor. Sending an email IMO is a ridiculous way to approach this serious medical issue.

Like I said, your attitude is pretty insulting since you're assuming that the staff were unprofessional and unconcerned with the welfare of their students.

Nope, your assumption not mine. The staff is doing what they are told to do by the big foreheads that make the rules. They can't break the rules because they know if they do they won't have the protection of the rules in case something goes wrong. So they fall in line just like everyone else. Except the kid who potentially saved her life and then got suspended of course.

 

[TenEightyOne]

3 minutes is an awful long time when someone is having an asthma attack so severe they fall off their chair onto the floor.

You've never taught a class with mass behavioural issues, have you?

Sending an email IMO is a ridiculous way to approach this serious medical issue.

You seem very concerned about that part of a workflow. It works and is used, so there you go. Voice calls go to a single person in a single place (with the exception of tannoy-style calls), emails can be collected from the same box in the same instant by many staff if required.

Except the kid who potentially saved her life

And potentially put her in harm's way, if we're speculating on fictitious outcomes.

 

[FoolKiller]

As important as a school's individual asthma procedure is to this great nation, I'm finding this more disturbing.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/mitch-mcconnell-war-authorization-isis_us_56a115eae4b0404eb8f083d0

Mitch McConnell has a proposal for increased war powers for the president ready to go to a vote in the Senate. It declares war on ISIS and gives the president permission to use pretty much any means to fight ISIS anywhere.

I'm already uncomfortable with how Obama has interpreted the 2001 war powers given after 9/11. Imagine any of our current candidates with this power a year from now.

 

[ECGadget]

Regarding the school girl. Given that the school was special behaviour (which I did not know) I can understand somewhat the action plan they had. On the other hand, suspending a student for doing his best to potentially save the life of another is still absurd. Yes, on the same token he could have endangered her life too, but that was not his intention. I have asthma, and if I had an attack in a classroom I most certainly would not want an email sent, that is for sure. And I also do call into question the effectiveness of email in emergencies. A beeper or a phone call, or even a student legging it down to the nurses office could be a lot faster.
I still hold that the students suspension was unwarranted and wholly inappropriate, and the teacher who authorised it should be given a dressing down at the very least.

 

[FoolKiller]

Schools should have Good Samaritan policies, much like there are Good Samaritan laws that prevent people from prosecution for attempting to help some they perceive to be in need.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Thousands of people die from Asthma related causes every year, I linked the stats already.

Again, that does not answer my question. How many of those deaths were a result of severe, sudden-onset asthma in patients with no medical history of asthma? The hypothetical situation that was presented as a possible outcome hinged on this.

The staff is doing what they are told to do by the big foreheads that make the rules.

Do you know who usually writes these policies? The schools themselves. And they are usually written with the needs of the school in mind, especially in special needs schools like this one.

 

[squadops]

How can you have any meat if you don't eat your pudding?



Seriously though, shouldn't education be founded on parents paying for a service that is beneficial(if they choose) instead of a mandatory state institution run by bureaucrats?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

shouldn't education be founded on parents paying for a service that is beneficial

And it is.

instead of a mandatory state institution run by bureaucrats?

What would you do about curriculum, then? How would you ensure students meet their outcomes?

 

[squadops]

No it is not.

Ensure students meet what outcomes?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ensure students meet what outcomes?

In other words; how do you know that the school has educated your child to a standard that is considered to be satisfactory?

 

[squadops]

The same way you would conduct any other type of business.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

No it is not.

I have been in schools where parents don't simply pay for their childrens' education, but they have a significant role in running the school, right down to the hiring policy. And they're terrible because it stops being about the educational experience and is more about hiring people who share the same values as the parents, even if that means hiring staff who are not very good at their jobs.

Ensure students meet what outcomes?

Academic outcomes. Whether or not students are achieving the learning objectives that all students of their age group are expected to be able to achieve.

For example, I teach English, and one of the outcomes that we have might be along the lines of "a student responds critically to a range of increasingly sophisticated texts". What this means is that when a student completes the course, they will be able to look at a wide variety of texts and text types and build an argument that demonstrates their understanding of the key ideas within those texts. Every subject has outcomes, and they're not necessarily tied to the student marks.

The same way you would conduct any other type of business.

And how do you do that in this case?

 

[squadops]

I have been in schools where parents don't simply pay for their childrens' education, but they have a significant role in running the school, right down to the hiring policy. And they're terrible because it stops being about the educational experience and is more about hiring people who share the same values as the parents, even if that means hiring staff who are not very good at their jobs.

So what?

Academic outcomes. Whether or not students are achieving the learning objectives that all students of their age group are expected to be able to achieve.

For example, I teach English, and one of the outcomes that we have might be along the lines of "a student responds critically to a range of increasingly sophisticated texts". What this means is that when a student completes the course, they will be able to look at a wide variety of texts and text types and build an argument that demonstrates their understanding of the key ideas within those texts. Every subject has outcomes, and they're not necessarily tied to the student marks.


And how do you do that in this case?

Like any other business.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Like any other business.

Which is how...?

 

[squadops]

Where do you take your car for service, and why do you take it there?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Where do you take your car for service, and why do you take it there?

I don't know, it's my first car. How should I know where to choose? What if it turns out that the garages have a catchment system and I simply have to take it to the one that's closest? How will people make sure that all garages perform to a satisfactory standard? Perhaps instead of your cryptic answers you could provide a proper explanation of your thoughts?

 

[squadops]

There is nothing cryptic about it, you are being silly.

If you don't know how to conduct business you probably should not have the responsibility of kids anyway

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So what?

You're trying to suggest that there is a viable mainstream alternative to education that is organised by the state. I'm telling you that there are alternatives out there, but they're not very good. In my home town, there was a school like one I described. Its average ATAR - our equivalent of the SATs - was fifteen points lower than the state schools, which is pretty significant given that ATAR is measured out of 100.

If you don't know how to conduct business you probably should not have the responsibility of kids anyway

Im addition to teaching English, I'm also certified to teach Economics, Business Studies and Commerce ... and I have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you suggesting that parents should have the ability to shop around for the best school? Why not take it further and let them shop around for the best individual teachers? That would cause chaos - I have taught the top senior English classes at my school for the padt four years, so parents are going to want their kids in my class, even when they should be in a class in keeping with their ability; I already have to fend off at least one request for private tutoring a week.

 

[squadops]

Private schools work just fine here in the U.S., you only need to look at their graduation rate, going onto college rate, graduating college rate, real world success from their alumni rate 👍

Why people feel the need for government thumbs in every pie is beyond me tbh.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Because private schools are ridiculously expensive, and quality education shouldn't be the exclusive right of people with the good fortune to have money. Even then, private schools are still obligated to teach a curriculum set forward by the state.

I happen to work in a comprehensive government school and we consistently out-perform all of the private schools on the area. Most of our students will go on to tertiary education and graduate. And it doesn't cost the parents anything except covering the costs of school uniforms and a small fee for things like the book pack that we provide. It's usually no more than $250 a year - a fraction of the cost of private education.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Private schools work just fine here in the U.S., you only need to look at their graduation rate, going onto college rate, graduating college rate, real world success from their alumni rate 👍

Why people feel the need for government thumbs in every pie is beyond me tbh.

I'm pretty sure private schools still have to meet certain government standards.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm pretty sure private schools still have to meet certain government standards.

They're state-governed rather than federally governed, but yes, in effect they do.

 

[squadops]

Aha, damn those state's rights

 

[TenEightyOne]

Aha, damn those state's rights

They have the right to claim federal funding for private schools and their students in certain cases, and indeed they do. They also provide a state-level framework for education that must be adhered to. Hardly the free-for-all you were hoping to prove, I think.

 

[squadops]

I know all about it seeing as I put two kids through it, I even remember the big voucher push.

 

[FoolKiller]

What would you do about curriculum, then? How would you ensure students meet their outcomes?

Let me ask the principal at my daughter's 100% privately funded school. I am Vice President of the PTO and a non-voting member of the school council.

Oh, wait I am actively ensuring that my daughter is meeting her outcomes. Well, technically she is meeting some of the outcomes of public school students that are two years older than her.

Because private schools are ridiculously expensive,

According to my state's Department of Education, a student in public schools cost $9,246 in 2011, which is the most up-to-date data they have. My daughter's school costs me $6,749 this year. Total cost, after the church puts in some, is about $8,500.

Sure, $6,750 sounds high, but that's because I am also forced to subsidize that $9,246 per student at schools that I don't use.

Even then, private schools are still obligated to teach a curriculum set forward by the state.

They're state-governed rather than federally governed, but yes, in effect they do.

My state only regulates attendance (our policy is extremely strict), number of days (which we exceed), a six hour day minimum (we do 7), and that subjects taught include reading, writing, spelling, grammar, history, mathematics, and civics (which we do by lunch, dedicating after lunch to art, science, music, foreign language, and gym). We exceed the required minimums and our curriculum runs in advance of current Common Core expectations.

The point is that education is not some mystical thing that only government has the magical ability to perform.

I happen to work in a comprehensive government school and we consistently out-perform all of the private schools on the area. Most of our students will go on to tertiary education and graduate. And it doesn't cost the parents anything except covering the costs of school uniforms and a small fee for things like the book pack that we provide. It's usually no more than $250 a year - a fraction of the cost of private education.

You don't have taxes? It costs nothing?Wow. It is wonderful that you volunteer all your time for free to these students. If only we had more philanthropists like you in the world.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Again, that does not answer my question. How many of those deaths were a result of severe, sudden-onset asthma in patients with no medical history of asthma? The hypothetical situation that was presented as a possible outcome hinged on this.

I don't know. What does the number have to be in order for it to change your mind?

Do you know who usually writes these policies? The schools themselves. And they are usually written with the needs of the school in mind, especially in special needs schools like this one.

What do you think of the policy at Ryan Gibbon's school, that prevented him from carrying an inhaler because some big forehead decided it was best to keep all the inhalers in the office? Ryan is dead by the way. Do you think that was a good policy? Should it be changed in light of his death?

I happen to work in a comprehensive government school and we consistently out-perform all of the private schools on the area. Most of our students will go on to tertiary education and graduate. And it doesn't cost the parents anything except covering the costs of school uniforms and a small fee for things like the book pack that we provide. It's usually no more than $250 a year - a fraction of the cost of private education.

This isn't the first time you've mentioned this. I'd like to see some sources backing up these claims.

And are you telling me that my government has been lying to me about paying elementary and secondary school teachers $94,000 a year and that they actually work for next to nothing? Where the hell are all those tax remittances I make going?

 

[Sanji Himura]

Ethan Couch drops his deportation case and is en route to Texas from Mexico as of post time:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/28/americas/texas-mexico-affluenza-ethan-couch/index.html