America - The Official Thread

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I don't disagree with you about the socioeconomic playing a huge part in all of that, but why does it need to be equal? Life isn't fair and there's always going to be the "haves" and the "have nots", it's something that we should accept. People who grow up in inner city areas that are typically poorer do have less opportunities over someone who was born into wealth, but that doesn't mean they can't succeed. It will take more way work to achieve that goal and the chance of success is lower, but I don't think it's impossible.

Why does it need to be equal? It doesn't need to be equal, but it seems like reasonable goal to help all children to reach their full potential regardless of the circumstances they were born into. Society as a whole will benefit from that too. Danoff may be fine with sticking with (his) morality over performance, it seems pretty clear that that is not a point of view shared by the vast majority of Americans.
 
So why is it OK for you to say horrible things but other people not to respond? That seems like a very unbalanced situation. Whoever gets in first is somehow automatically in the right.

No, other people would be allowed to respond. What you wouldn't be allowed to do is to penalise someone for speaking, for instance by firing them from their job. And in an absolute freedom of speech you wouldn't want to either, because you can't have absolute freedom of speech unless people agree with the fundamental principles of it, and that is what requires a great deal of tolerance.
 
Hey if it was up to me, if the kid knows what they want to do in life let them have specialised education in that feild right away, and only add things that allow them to function in society on top, you would very easily find a significantly more skilled workforce this way compared to how it is now when 80% of their education experince is wasted knowledge after school.
 
According to the law I quoted, the question is "Whenever the President finds". You and I, or the courts for that matter, aren't privy to the intelligence information that the President is. The law clearly says it is up to him.

So what other things can he do unilaterally? I thought that the US had specifically designed it's government so that no one person had enough power to control policy. That's the idea of the checks and balances that are such a major concept.

It's not clear to me that this law that you're quoting overrules other pieces of law that would seem to contradict in this particular situation. I guess that's why there's such robust debate around the subject. Just because one law would seem to render something legal, doesn't mean that there aren't other parts that might limit that action further.

This law was written by one of the three branches of our government, the Legislature. It was signed into law by The executive branch (the President), second of our three branches of government. Now comes the 9th Circuit, a tiny part of the third branch, the judiciary, and they think they trump the other two branches?

They interpret law. That is their job. If they find that the other branches of government have acted unlawfully, then yes, I think they do. Isn't that the point of them?

Particularly the higher courts, I would have thought. Lower courts tend to just apply already well established legal principles, whereas the higher courts exist where the interaction between several laws or laws and rights is unclear. In such cases they indeed tend to make decisions about how those situations will be handled, which I suppose gives them a certain amount of power over the other branches.

Immigration in the US is controlled by the Legislature. For whatever reason, the Legislature decided to give this control to the President. And for whatever reason the President found the need to ban travel from some countries.

Sure. And he should have to disclose the reasoning behind the need to ban travel, which he has done. What then if the reasoning is faulty? What if it clashes with some other piece of law? What if the president is banning people from the country to further his own personal interests?

There is such a thing as the spirit of the law. Legally it doesn't mean much, except that if someone like the President can use the specific wording to violate it then that wording will probably be changed. And most governments have no problem finding people guilty of crimes after the fact.

Fortunately, the US has a written constitution that fairly clearly spells out the spirit of the laws of the land, and any that are assessed to be in conflict with the constitution are deemed unconstitutional and struck down. One cannot have a law in the US that conflicts with the constitution.

At best, the executive order requires expert analysis from the courts as to it's legality, which it will receive in due course. It's by no means a slam dunk, and I don't think in a case like this it should be.

No, other people would be allowed to respond. What you wouldn't be allowed to do is to penalise someone for speaking, for instance by firing them from their job.

Why not? If someone calls his boss an [insert many very rude swear words here] I think it's totally reasonable that they'd be fired for that. It's even in most contracts that the business can terminate you for just about any reason they feel like, especially low level contracts.

So why is it that this behaviour should not be allowed? What advantage is there to restricting people like business owners from using their property as they see fit?

And in an absolute freedom of speech you wouldn't want to either, because you can't have absolute freedom of speech unless people agree with the fundamental principles of it, and that is what requires a great deal of tolerance.

You keep saying these words. I don't think you understand that they have a very specific meaning that is not entirely congruous with the literal meaning of the words.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

You have the right to hold any opinion you like, and to express that if you wish. It says nothing about being immune from consequence, nor does it say anything about censoring other people's otherwise legal speech and actions simply because they happen to be in opposition to yours. That would be the ultimate in Special Snowflake Syndrome, expecting your rights and freedom of expression to be upheld at the expense of others.

Because that's what you're asking for. Other people's rights to be violated so that you aren't required to face consequences of poor decisions that you've made.
 
Let me answer part of your questions first. I am not a multi-quote kind of guy.

So what other things can he do unilaterally?
He can start a war. Reagan invaded Granada in the middle of the night

I guess that's why there's such robust debate around the subject.

The robust debate, is the media raising questions, instead of reporting the truth.

If they find that the other branches of government have acted unlawfully, then yes, I think they do. Isn't that the point of them?

The President was following the law as written. If they think the law is unconstitutional, then they should challenge that.

Edit, I read the rest of your post and don't feel the need to comment.
 
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Hey if it was up to me, if the kid knows what they want to do in life let them have specialised education in that feild right away, and only add things that allow them to function in society on top, you would very easily find a significantly more skilled workforce this way compared to how it is now when 80% of their education experince is wasted knowledge after school.

Yes but most kids don't know what they want to do and even graduating high school many are undecided. So realistically as nice as it sounds in a realistic world it's not that simple. Two who would pay for so many specialized schools that basically would end up being what parent's want their kids to be not the way you've spelled it out. If parent's as danoff said really care that much then they will find a way to send their kids to such a place. However, this silly camp fire notion that we're all going to get equal education one day is just that.
 
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Why not? If someone calls his boss an [insert many very rude swear words here] I think it's totally reasonable that they'd be fired for that.

Yes, and I agree with you. Totally reasonable. And that is why we don't have absolute freedom of speech, because most people agree that it would be a bad idea.

So why is it that this behaviour should not be allowed? What advantage is there to restricting people like business owners from using their property as they see fit?

I never said that it shouldn't be allowed. I said that such behavior constitutes a limit to the freedom of speech. If you want absolute freedom of speech, you can't allow someone to be fired because of something they said. And yes, it would conflict with other rights.


Which does not describe absolute freedom of speech. It says that you cannot use your rights to cause harm to others, which means that your rights are limited and not absolute.

You have the right to hold any opinion you like, and to express that if you wish. It says nothing about being immune from consequence, nor does it say anything about censoring other people's otherwise legal speech and actions simply because they happen to be in opposition to yours. That would be the ultimate in Special Snowflake Syndrome, expecting your rights and freedom of expression to be upheld at the expense of others.

Because that's what you're asking for. Other people's rights to be violated so that you aren't required to face consequences of poor decisions that you've made.

Good luck finding me asking for absolute freedom of speech anywhere in this thread. You think that I'm promoting absolute freedom of speech, when it's in fact the other way around. I said from the start: Words can cause harm, there needs to be limits, absolute freedom of speech is not a good thing. The problem we have to deal with is picking a good balance between freedom of speech and to protect others from harm.
 
He can start a war. Reagan invaded Granada in the middle of the night

Which was considered to be a violation of international law, and even within the US I believe there was some question as to whether the invasion was appropriate or necessary.

So basically, exactly what's happening now except that it's much easier to put a hold on an order restricting immigration while analysis happens than it is to pull an entire military force out of a foreign country.

And I would expect the President's decision to be scrutinised and questioned whenever a military force is sent out, especially when it's not a clear-cut case of protecting American people or interests. These decisions should never be simply accepted at face value, even if you feel that the ends that they accomplish suit you.

The robust debate, is the media raising questions, instead of reporting the truth.

Many people are saying that, on both sides of the argument. It all seems very self-serving to me, which is why we have courts of the land to serve as impartial third parties with only the best interests of the country at heart.

The President was following the law as written. If they think the law is unconstitutional, then they should challenge that.

Maybe so.

Then again, it's entirely possible that two laws can interact to be more restrictive than a single law would appear to be on it's face. It's entirely possible that a law and the constitution can interact to be more restrictive than the single law would appear to be on it's face. A law is not unconstitutional simply because the constitution restricts some of the actions that it would otherwise allow. People are arguing that this EO goes beyond a single law.

The President is bound by all the laws of the US, not just one at a time. Or at least as far as I'm aware. If people think that there are other interactions to be debated, then what's wrong with that? The US has had zero deaths from terrorists of these countries so far, the likelihood of there being a fatal attack in the few weeks while the EO is critically examined seems pretty low. So why the hurry? Is the President immune from having his decisions questioned?

Which does not describe absolute freedom of speech. It says that you cannot use your rights to cause harm to others, which means that your rights are limited and not absolute.

I see. You don't understand what the phrase "freedom of speech" means, so you're making up your own strawman to attack. Somehow you've managed to justify to yourself that it means "able to say anything I want without any consequences", when I've just provided you with a source saying that it doesn't mean that. You can look up Wikipedia and see the same, or any of the many analyses of the First Amendment written by literate, experienced and educated people who know far more than this about you or I.

Or you can persist in telling people that what they said doesn't mean what they meant it to say. Good luck with that.

Maybe come back when you understand that phrases can have meanings beyond the simple words that they contain. Freedom of speech does not and never has meant what you say it does. You are wrong.

You also apparently don't understand rights. Which is no surprise. The right to freedom of speech and the right to life, liberty and security do not conflict.

I said from the start: Words can cause harm, there needs to be limits, absolute freedom of speech is not a good thing.

But we have freedom of speech. The only problem is that that phrase doesn't mean what you think it means. There doesn't need to be limits on freedom of speech, because it works just fine without them. It fulfils it's intended purpose and is essentially self-policing.

The problem we have to deal with is picking a good balance between freedom of speech and to protect others from harm.

The problem we have is getting you to understand English. Seriously, give it a go. Look up what "freedom of speech" or "freedom of expression" actually means in the context of the constitution, and try taking it on board.
 
You can look up Wikipedia.

Yes, let's look at Wikipedia:

"Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction."

"Freedom of speech and expression are not absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury."

"Legal systems sometimes recognize certain limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other rights and freedoms, such as in the cases of libel, slander, pornography, obscenity, fighting words, and intellectual property. Justifications for limitations to freedom of speech often reference the "harm principle" or the "offense principle". Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction or social disapprobation, or both.[26] Certain public institutions may also enact policies restricting the freedom of speech, for example speech codes at state schools."

"In On Liberty (1859), John Stuart Mill argued that "...there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it may be considered."[26] Mill argues that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. However, Mill also introduced what is known as the harm principle, in placing the following limitation on free expression: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[26]"


Societal sanction: check.
Freedom of speech is not absolute: check.
Limitation to freedom of speech: check.
Freedom of speech sometimes conflicts with other rights and freedoms: check.
Limitations may occur through social disapprobation: check.
 
Yes, let's look at Wikipedia:

"Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction."

"Freedom of speech and expression are not absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury."

"Legal systems sometimes recognize certain limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other rights and freedoms, such as in the cases of libel, slander, pornography, obscenity, fighting words, and intellectual property. Justifications for limitations to freedom of speech often reference the "harm principle" or the "offense principle". Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction or social disapprobation, or both.[26] Certain public institutions may also enact policies restricting the freedom of speech, for example speech codes at state schools."

"In On Liberty (1859), John Stuart Mill argued that "...there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it may be considered."[26] Mill argues that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. However, Mill also introduced what is known as the harm principle, in placing the following limitation on free expression: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[26]"


Societal sanction: check.
Freedom of speech is not absolute: check.
Limitation to freedom of speech: check.
Freedom of speech sometimes conflicts with other rights and freedoms: check.
Limitations may occur through social disapprobation: check.

I take it you didn't read the first sentence. You don't face sanction from society. You face personal sanction from the people that you offended.

As far as the examples of limited speech, those are actions by which you cause demonstrable harm by your speech. Freedom of speech is not freedom to harm others, because then that would conflict with the right to life, liberty and security.

If you think that it's a limitation because free speech doesn't override every other right and give you free rein to ruin other people's lives, then yes, I suppose there are limitations. But most people don't look at it that way, because the usual assumption is that people aren't willingly violating the Golden Rule. If you're actually concerned about rights and freedoms then it's kind of a given that you're not violating the other basic rights.

I guess unless your name is @eran0004.

I'm pretty sure you don't get to claim freedom of speech while stomping someone's head in, which is the problem that many people had with the rioters at Berkeley.
 
As far as the examples of limited speech, those are actions by which you cause demonstrable harm by your speech.

Yes. And they are also limitations, which shows that the Freedom of Speech is not absolute, but limited. I don't see what makes that so hard to understand.

You even say it yourself: The freedom of speech is limited, you are not allowed to cause harm to others.

So what exactly is the problem?
 
I can't believe he's still on this tack of "freedom of [x] is the total lack of consequence from exercising [x]".

In this universe, all actions have consequence. There is no action that has no consequence - even inaction has consequence (though you should not be held responsible for it, which doesn't stop people passing laws to make you responsible for it). From moving the molecules in the air to moving someone's eardrum and entering their head, speaking has consequence. Nothing you say is free of consequence for having said it.

Someone agreeing with you is a consequence of exercising freedom of speech. Someone changing their mind is a consequence of exercising freedom of speech. The argument that you don't have absolute freedom of speech until there is zero consequence of exercising it is so unbelievably bogus it doesn't even merit a moment's thought because it cannot happen in this universe.

You could, perhaps, enact laws to make it illegal for anyone to change their mind, agree or disagree with anything anyone says, but then you'd have a considerably less free society and absolutely zero advancement due to the exchange of ideas no longer having any productive result... Way to go, people who ignore physics.


Freedom of [x] is the freedom from government persecution for exercising [x]. That is all it can be.
 
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So much for no voter fraud. The first conviction.

Rosa Maria Ortega, 37, was found guilty on two counts of illegal voting after she falsely claimed to be a United States citizen and voted at least five times between 2012 and 2014.
For those who can't see FB posts...



Also Almost 200 illegal immigrants have been arrested. Say what you want but he's getting stuff done.
 
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Not quite the voter fraud that Trump's been talking about.
As if that would stop Sean Spicer triumphantly bleating about it in his next press conference. :rolleyes:
 
I believe the POTENTIAL exists for extensive voter fraud. For instance, in California I think you can register to vote on the strength of a driver's license, yet not have to show citizenship to obtain the driver's license.
 
I believe the POTENTIAL exists for extensive voter fraud. For instance, in California I think you can register to vote on the strength of a driver's license, yet not have to show citizenship to obtain the driver's license.

Certainly it's technically possible. It even happens in the odd case here and there. I don't think many people actually dispute this.

On the other hand, widespread and organised voter fraud is incredibly difficult to make happen and keep under wraps. It might be able to be done from within the system, but at which point the whole election is a joke anyway and you might as well be in North Korea.

Actually doing it with real people who are really registered in multiple states and who voted multiple times seems hard, and 3 million of them seems...Trumpian. And stuff like non-citizens voting with drivers licenses is trivial to detect, simply compare the voter list to the citizens list. I'm yet to hear of a way that significant voter fraud could be pulled off and yet not be detected, because it's not like they haven't been looking.
 
Did anyone mention that she was a registered Republican, and didn't vote in the 2016 election? That seems important.

Yep, the whole case stinks, particularly when you look at the sentence that was handed down. Educationally sub-normal with many of the "normal" rights of citizenship, it would have been fascinating to hear her testimony. Not going to happen, unfortunately.
 
Mr. Birdsall said Mr. Paxton’s office had been prepared to dismiss all charges against Ms. Ortega if she agreed to testify on voting procedures before the Texas Legislature. But the Tarrant County criminal district attorney, Sharen Wilson, vetoed that deal, he said, insisting on a trial that would showcase her office’s efforts to crack down on election fraud.


This Punishment doesn't fit the crime, it's just using someone to score political points.
 
All fine, in theory. In practice, leaving education as the responsibility of individual parents will result in a widening gap between the haves & have-nots & the US will slip further behind other nations that more aggressively promote quality education for all their children. The idea that growing inequality (in education, as well as wealth) doesn't matter is naive. People get pissed off & react ... as can be seen in the last presidential election.

Does promoting education equate to government run/funded?

you'll be able to happily stick with the superiority of your moral principles as other, more "utilitarian" nations overhaul & leave the US behind in educational outcomes, business opportunities & prosperity.
Would it be the end of the world? It's not like you can't have a good life unless you live in the country with the absolute best X.

@huskeR32, why would a retail clerk, an accountant, an entertainer, a fiction writer, an artist, a professional athlete need to know anything about the scientific method? Why should they even care if it exists or not?

It's not needed at all, but it could be very helpful. Anyone in any of those occupations could run into a situation where they might want to improve performance. Being able to properly pull out meaningful data and avoiding confirmation bias would surely help achieve that goal. It may not come up everyday, but it can separate someone stagnating in a position to someone who has the drive and ability to climb the ranks.
 
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