America - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter ///M-Spec
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Look, you're conflating multiple issues that have come up in this thread recently, and I think you're doing it on purpose.
Issue #1) Lobbying results from big government.

This issue has essentially be conceded every time it comes up, and it was basically conceded here again as well.

Issue #2) Taxation is theft



The inability to achieve perfection right now should not stop you from pursuing it.

Issue #3) Charity should be voluntary

This is also not particularly related to the above two issues. You keep saying that people cannot rely on charity of others, and I keep reminding you that that is all they have. Even within government systems that steal and redistribute, they still rely on the charity of others to use their guns to steal property for them. It's still charity, just charity of a different sort. Charity should always be voluntary, not stolen from those who are not willing to give. If the amount of charity is insufficient, then people will suffer and charity will increase in response to the suffering.

Not on purpose at all.
1) I already adressed that "lobbying" with corporations (that take over certain government roles) would result in the same issues returning.
2) Black and white, I already agreed. However the law and many ethical questions are not black and white.
3) Charity is by default voluntary. Social assistance is not charity and therefore is not voluntary. Like parents are responsible for their children, a government is responsible for their citizens.
 
1) I already adressed that "lobbying" with corporations (that take over certain government roles) would result in the same issues returning.

As I explained, it's not the same. Corporations need to lobby to be able to use force. They can't get it any other way than through the government (if government is doing its job). Lobbying is a unique opportunity.

2) Black and white, I already agreed. However the law and many ethical questions are not black and white.

It's basically the definition of theft.

3) Charity is by default voluntary. Social assistance is not charity and therefore is not voluntary. Like parents are responsible for their children, a government is responsible for their citizens.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.
 
As I explained, it's not the same. Corporations need to lobby to be able to use force. They can't get it any other way than through the government (if government is doing its job). Lobbying is a unique opportunity.



It's basically the definition of theft.



I have no idea what you're talking about here.

True but the endresult is the same. Corporations taking advantage within the coonfounds of the law.

Yes, but should each situation of theft be judged the same?

Which part exactly? Charity is voluntary by default. Forcing someone to be charitable is not charity anymore. My point is that there is no such thing as forced charity. In my language it roughly translates as "act of love". There is no such thing as forced love.

What Robin hood (I know he is fiction) did was not charity. He was a thief, but a hero for many. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor.
 
True but the endresult is the same. Corporations taking advantage within the coonfounds of the law.

No it's not the same, because in one case you have corporations using force (big government + lobbying) and in the other case you do not.

Yes, but should each situation of theft be judged the same?

Obviously not.

Which part exactly?

The part where you were analogizing the government to parents?

Charity is voluntary by default. Forcing someone to be charitable is not charity anymore. My point is that there is no such thing as forced charity. In my language it roughly translates as "act of love". There is no such thing as forced love.

What Robin hood (I know he is fiction) did was not charity. He was a thief, but a hero for many. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor.

What Robin hood (the fox obviously) did was charity. He used his services to benefit those in need. It was his charity, not the charity of lion (the small phony lion (Prince John), not the bigger trustworthy one (King Richard)). Robbin Hood (in that cartoon) uses force against his victims (the lion, and the... what was that a rat? the taxman). His use of force is not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of others (the dog with the cast on his leg).

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His charitable donation is his ability to fight. And he uses it to provide for the poor. The question, in all cases, is whether the people that force is used against are innocent people, or have stolen their property to begin with.
 
What Robin hood (the fox obviously) did was charity. He used his services to benefit those in need. It was his charity, not the charity of lion (the small phony lion (Prince John), not the bigger trustworthy one (King Richard)). Robbin Hood (in that cartoon) uses force against his victims (the lion, and the... what was that a rat? the taxman). His use of force is not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of others (the dog with the cast on his leg).



His charitable donation is his ability to fight. And he uses it to provide for the poor. The question, in all cases, is whether the people that force is used against are innocent people, or have stolen their property to begin with.

To summarize my criticism about less government is that it would not solve the issue of lobbying, but result in more exploitation. For example big Pharma has had little oversight too long, with a lot of victims as a result. A result of lobbying, but would less government have resulted in big pharma selfoverseeing have had less victims?

You answered my criticism on your suggestion there is such a thing as "forced charity". Robin Hood used his ability to fight voluntary (charity). Again theft is black and white in your statement tax=theft. What does it matter if the people had property stolen from them? Are people innocent from stealing, when people use public roads or other facilities without paying taxes? The government provides corporations and its citizens safety, public facilities and services etc, how would you propose to let people pay, instead of tax?
 
To summarize my criticism about less government is that it would not solve the issue of lobbying, but result in more exploitation. For example big Pharma has had little oversight too long, with a lot of victims as a result. A result of lobbying, but would less government have resulted in big pharma selfoverseeing have had less victims?

Possibly out of necessity, if you define victim in a particular way.

You answered my criticism on your suggestion there is such a thing as "forced charity". Robin Hood used his ability to fight voluntary (charity). Again theft is black and white in your statement tax=theft. What does it matter if the people had property stolen from them? Are people innocent from stealing, when people use public roads or other facilities without paying taxes? The government provides corporations and its citizens safety, public facilities and services etc, how would you propose to let people pay, instead of tax?

I've been explaining to you the nature of human rights for years now, how do you not know how I answer this? It matters if people stole their "property" because rights are reciprocal. If they stole it they have no right to it.
 
I've been explaining to you the nature of human rights for years now, how do you not know how I answer this? It matters if people stole their "property" because rights are reciprocal. If they stole it they have no right to it.

In reality...I'm not sure. At some point, its merely a matter if somebody can stop them...and that seems more natural to me than abiding by a completely philosophically constructed no-take policy. It's good that there are laws for the whole taking thing, generally. Otherwise people would take all the time. Its probably a lot more difficult to "enforce" a non-binding moral code (which is kind of a paradox in itself) than it is to enforce laws.

As far as taxes...I see it as a tacit contract with the government to provide me with a non-hellscape existence. I don't want to pay them, obviously. But I don't think I would like the Kowloon Walled City meets Houston, Texas dystopia I fear would emerge in the absense of bureaucratic administration and, like regulation and zoning. Man, I shudder to think of what kind of awful drosscapes would get created without building code, environmental regulation, and zoning. And that's just three things the government controls! I'll take the taxes.
 
In reality...I'm not sure. At some point, its merely a matter if somebody can stop them...and that seems more natural to me than abiding by a completely philosophically constructed no-take policy. It's good that there are laws for the whole taking thing, generally. Otherwise people would take all the time. Its probably a lot more difficult to "enforce" a non-binding moral code (which is kind of a paradox in itself) than it is to enforce laws.

The are (at least) two self-consistent logical frameworks for human behavior. One is might makes right (what you describe above), and the other is reciprocity. Reciprocity results in personal ownership. Might makes right does not. Reciprocity is what human rights are founded upon. To argue against property rights is to argue against adhering to human rights as a whole, it is to argue for might makes right - which is a "hellscape existence", ironically.

You can certainly adopt might makes right, but you need to understand the consequences of doing so, which is that there is no morality, there are no rights, and your life is predicated on your ability to preserve it.

Edit: The above phrase can be easily misinterpreted, so let me try (probably unsuccessfully) to head that one off before someone (with pocket in their screen name) jumps in.

I do not mean that when you adopt might makes right you must defend your life and that when you adopt human rights you need not. I do not mean that you change the universe with this choice. I mean that these results logically follow from your choices. Human rights exist, but you have logically opted out of them. You've waived your rights before the world when you adopt might makes right. Whether that matters to anyone else depends on them.

As far as taxes...I see it as a tacit contract with the government to provide me with a non-hellscape existence.

It's not a contract, you don't have the ability to refuse to sign.

Man, I shudder to think of what kind of awful drosscapes would get created without building code, environmental regulation, and zoning. And that's just three things the government controls! I'll take the taxes.

Building codes are a huge pain in the ass... it's the reason that I have to have absolutely nonsensical outlets in my house. Building codes can be voluntarily subscribed to. Zoning is basically a contractual obligation on sale. It's something that can be put in place by the seller, or even negotiated for a price by a group of interested people. Environmental regulation is a human rights issue, pollution is an actual modification and harm to your property which is created by others. They're responsible for that.
 
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The are (at least) two self-consistent logical frameworks for human behavior. One is might makes right (what you describe above), and the other is reciprocity. Reciprocity results in personal ownership. Might makes right does not.

Does it not? I would have thought that might makes right means that you own whatever you can personally defend. If you can't stop someone else taking it, then you don't own it.

Don't get me wrong, that's a pretty brutal sort of system and not something that I'd want to try and build a co-operative and free society around. But I think such a system would in the long term have a meaningful definition of personal ownership, even if it was quite distinct from what might exist under a reciprocal society.
 
I've been explaining to you the nature of human rights for years now, how do you not know how I answer this? It matters if people stole their "property" because rights are reciprocal. If they stole it they have no right to it.

And I keep saying that human rights are not objective. Property is only defined by mutual consensus and trust.
 
I could almost have posted this in Funny/Strange News: Donald Trump Jr. recalls how a visit to Arlington Cemetery put in him mind of his own family's incredible monetary sacrifices. Imagine being able to be more crass than Donald Trump Sr.

BBC.
"As we drove past the rows of white grave markers, in the gravity of the moment, I had a deep sense of the importance of the presidency and a love of our country, " wrote Mr Trump Jr, 41.

"In that moment, I also thought of all the attacks we'd already suffered as a family, and about all the sacrifices we'd have to make to help my father succeed - voluntarily giving up a huge chunk of our business and all international deals to avoid the appearance that we were 'profiting off of the office.'"

He later adds: "Frankly, it was a big sacrifice, costing us millions and millions of dollars annually. Of course, we didn't get any credit whatsoever from the mainstream media, which now does not surprise me at all."

Yet somehow that appearance has not been avoided...hmm

The 2nd and 3rd paragraph appear in bad taste after what was written in the 1st.
 
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Building codes are a huge pain in the ass... it's the reason that I have to have absolutely nonsensical outlets in my house. Building codes can be voluntarily subscribed to.


They are huge pain in the ass, I am intimately familiar. Do you think public buildings (I'm personally fine with people doing whatever they want with their own property, provided they disclose it when they sell/transfer) would be more or less safe if building codes did not exist? Aside from that, if building codes did exist and were voluntary, do you believe developers of public buildings would follow them?

Zoning is basically a contractual obligation on sale. It's something that can be put in place by the seller, or even negotiated for a price by a group of interested people.

I'm not sure I understand you here. I'm referring to, basically, urban planning.

Environmental regulation is a human rights issue, pollution is an actual modification and harm to your property which is created by others. They're responsible for that.

Well, at least we agree on this. I see the other two as very similar to this. Poorly built buildings can cause you bodily harm, and they are created by others. Bad/non-existent zoning can very easily lead to sprawl (that's not to say zoning prevents sprawl, but careful urban planning can help) and sprawl definitely leads to environmental degradation.

How do you feel about the Americans with Disabilities Act? I'm just curious.
 
Aside from that, if building codes did exist and were voluntary, do you believe developers of public buildings would follow them?

Honestly, no. But, this is where the consumer comes in. Currently we do a very piss poor job of actually holding companies accountable for how they go about doing business. If people actually spoke with their wallets as well as social media, companies like Amazon and Walmart might actually treat their employees decently. The same applies to developers, the money has to come from somewhere and if that source isn't demanding the builder meet certain standards the builder will cut every corner they can.
 
Unfortunately the Consumers in most cases will just go for best value rather then what's best for them.

The Media doesn't help on that side either(think of their terrible pro MIC arguments about how a Loss of jobs would happen if they lost their power so we should keep status quo, they also think state governments giving tax breaks to companies like Amazon is a good idea just to have them in their state, creating in unfair playing field for potential competition and gifting them Welfare at the expense of the public dollar).
 
They are huge pain in the ass, I am intimately familiar. Do you think public buildings (I'm personally fine with people doing whatever they want with their own property, provided they disclose it when they sell/transfer) would be more or less safe if building codes did not exist? Aside from that, if building codes did exist and were voluntary, do you believe developers of public buildings would follow them?

I can tell by the way you phrased this that you're thinking about this fairly narrowly. You're perhaps thinking "If GFI circuits were not required, we would not have them, and therefore buildings would be less safe". So in your mind (perhaps), it is a classic money vs. safety question, and I think you tend to land toward the "safety at any cost" end of the spectrum.

It's an impossible question to answer, here's why.

First, you and I have no idea what kinds of innovations these codes prevent. Creating a new system to implement in a house requires getting it tested and registered as compliant with building code. We have no idea, and no way of knowing, what has been abandoned in the face of that hurdle. Likewise completely unclear is what costs are added to housing to maintain compliance with code. Certainly we know that there are construction delays for inspections. And code includes things that are not safety related - like requiring outlets every 3 inches along the wall, leading to roughly 6000 outlets in each room. So we're adding cost to construction projects for non-safety items and safety items alike due to building codes. What is the financial AND safety cost associated with increased housing prices? But we have to keep in mind as well that the price increase is only for new construction and remodels.

Another wrinkle here is that codes are grandfathered. In my house in California I was not required to have smoke detectors in every room because the house was built in the 1960s. Changing code has zero impact on that existing structure. When I moved in, the house had one smoke detector. When I moved out, the house had smoke detectors in every room and CO detectors as well. Not because code required it, but because I wanted it.

Likewise I caught a bunch of construction problems that city inspectors didn't when buying a new construction house.

Code is also a downward pressure on remodeling. "Well, if you update this kitchen, remove that Asbestos, and fix that spaghetti wiring in your attic, you'll have to run a ton of new GFI and arc fault circuits to your breaker, and we have to add 16,000 outlets, and they all have to be child protection outlets". And suddenly you're not updating that kitchen because of the added cost.

And of course the child protection outlets are hazards for adults as well. While they might prevent kid deaths, they increase risk to the kids' parents, because the outlets promote a more invasive grab of the plug so that you can force it into the outlet, leading to an increased risk of electric shock. But of course when you have 6000 outlets per inch, you end up needing them to be very safe because they're every direction your baby carries his fork. Likewise I need that GFI circuit because my outlets are required to be essentially under running water, because what if someone wanted to plug something in next to the sink faucet.

So it's a mixed bag. I imagine that the answer to your question is "yes and no".

I'm not sure I understand you here. I'm referring to, basically, urban planning.

You can buy a contract on a group of homes. You just offer people money, and get them to sign away some of the rights on their property in exchange for money. What the city does with zoning is essentially eminent domain. And zoning gets changed more for how much money the buyer is willing to bring in to the city than it is for any other reason. Right now there is a zoning debate near me where a multi-national company wants to build a campus that is beyond the zoning for the land, and with the number of jobs and cash they're willing to bring to the city, the zoning change sailed through. That's basically lobbying at a local level. The zoning derestriction goes to the company willing to pay for it. I would rather that the property owner was the one being bribed.

How do you feel about the Americans with Disabilities Act? I'm just curious.

Same way I feel about zoning, building codes, and taxes.


Edit:

When you ask yourself, does Danoff want government to do this, just remember that Danoff is asking himself "would I point a gun at someone and make them do this".
 
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When you ask yourself, does Danoff want government to do this, just remember that Danoff is asking himself "would I point a gun at someone and make them do this".

I'm just going to do myself a favor and always go back to this before replying. :lol:

In other news:
Groyfers are now a thing, I guess. I really don't understand where people find the time to get sucked so far down these conspiracy rabbit holes. It's like they've made it their full time job to be raging, dumb, a-holes all of the time. Can someone explain to me why reasonably normal white Americans could hate Jews so much? Its one thing to shout into the clouds about George Soros and ambiguously antisemitic tropes like "Globalism", but to be so broadly & conspicuously anti-Semite...I don't understand it. Especially as I feel like most of these people come from the more rural parts of the country...where there just aren't very many Jewish people. How can you hate something you don't even understand/know?

I always feared that the 4chan containment would break and that type of reckless, frothing nihilism would spill into the real world. Too late I guess.
 
So it looks like America may have it's hands on another potential CIA backed Coup in Bolivia, and there is strong reason to because they have the 2nd largest reserves of lithium in the world and where refusing to sell it to the rest of the world.

The Reasons given for voter fraud in the elections where very questionable given under the Bolivian constitution no rules where broken, OAS(organisation of american States) where the first to call election fraud when in the quick vote count Morales went from 7% infront to just over 10% in front with a 10% larger count saying that increase was too high, despite his support being mostly from Rural people who where counted last, and the fact the quick vote count isn't even official, until the final count is done.

Kevin Cashman explains in Detail(just click on the Arrow at the bottom pointing left) how this looks like a coup plain and simple:
 
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So it looks like America may have it's hands on another potential CIA backed Coup in Bolivia, and there is strong reason to because they have the 2nd largest reserves of lithium in the world and where refusing to sell it to the rest of the world.
Yes, that is a strong reason as you suggest. Very strong. I believe there is some sort of doctrine the US holds to that says resources which are in your country must be made available to the market, i.e., strategic minerals cannot be withheld from the market, no matter their location or country of origin.
 
I think that there isn't a person alive today who would be surprised that the CIA are still meddling in other country's politics.
 
I think that there isn't a person alive today who would be surprised that the CIA are still meddling in other country's politics.
Yes, that's their assigned job, meddling in elections, overthrowing democracies and installing dictators. But they are not supposed to meddle in internal US politics. But now they do that too. Whoopsie.
 
Bolivia's Evo Morales is not only a "leftie" but also a coca farmer and advocate, which really goes against US interests in the supposed War On Drugs. No surprise at all that a coup d'etat has taken place. In fact, considering he has been President since 2005 I am only surprised that it hasn't happened sooner.
 
I believe there is some sort of doctrine the US holds to that says resources which are in your country must be made available to the market

I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't underlie US foreign policy decisions at times, but for "market" should we read "the USA"? :D
 
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