America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

This is why Bernie also would have won in 2016 and 2020, because the amount of people who would have voted for Bernie in a general election, but instead either voted for Trump, or didn't vote at all, would vastly outnumber the amount of Democrats who would refuse to vote for Bernie because he's too far left or whatever.

I'm so sick of the counterfactuals with regard to Trump. You cannot say that Bernie would have won. Anyone but Hillary would have won... anyone but Biden could win... anyone but Hillary, Biden, and Harris could win. I don't know how it fails to sink in, but it's still failing to sink in, and I don't mean this specifically at you, but in general to many democrats.

You still think the democrat platform is popular despite losing absolutely everything that democrats wanted to not lose. Not just the house, the senate, the executive, the supreme court, but issues that actually matter to democrats like democracy, human rights, and rule of law. As a group, democrats have lost everything, and you're still out here saying that the problem is messaging instead of realizing that the message is not popular.

The US WANTS!! this. I don't know how much more clear it can be. The defeat can hardly be more thorough. Trump even won the popular vote. After staging a coup and messing up a pandemic, he did BETTER in the election.

You must first and foremost reckon with this fact. The United States of America wants a more authoritarian government. Period. Full stop. You have to deal with this fact, and the only way to really change this, is for them to get a taste and spit it out. They're not going to suddenly come back to democracy just because someone told them to.

... which is? A general strike, or violent revolution? Not surprised you don't specify. I've noticed that since the election, you've made a lot of cryptic and curtly worded posts as to why nothing matters anymore, and you've given up on substantiating counterarguments. It's as if because you've been a more prolific member of the subforum with more life experience than most, your points should just be assumed as true and we should all just read your mind.

No, it's that it doesn't matter anymore. I don't care if you (or anyone else reading this) read my mind, or know what I'm getting at. Because it makes no difference if you get it or not. I'm not trying to persuade you because it doesn't matter.

I've walked through the scenario we should take before. I don't think the US should remain intact as a result of this election. There are two wildly incompatible visions of governance within this country, and I don't think they belong together.

I just don't know why you're so hell-bent on swatting off any criticism towards the Democrats. I know you don't agree with the Dems on much outside of supporting democracy and egalitarianism, but come on. As wonderful as it would be, the millions of swing and apathetic voters who could've been won over by the Dems in 2024 are not going to wake up one day and unify, putting aside their own wants and vision for the country just to vote Dem because they aren't the fascists, all on their own. I'd love for this to happen, but it's not going to. There needs to be a mechanism in place (again, look toward Bernie Sanders style of campaigning) to mobilize these people.

It doesn't matter. I don't like the criticism because I think you genuinely saw who your candidates were and are on the democrat side for the most part, and they ran into a religion that was not going to be undone by any of the remedies you suggest. The only way for this religion to be undone is for them to lose faith. Democrats can scream as loudly as they want, but it's not going to break the faith. Egg prices are more likely.

 

[McLaren]

And the orange one had a bat**** moment overnight (again)

Spoiler: Language warning

Transgenders good now?

 

[GranTurNismo]

You still think the democrat platform is popular despite losing absolutely everything that democrats wanted to not lose. Not just the house, the senate, the executive, the supreme court, but issues that actually matter to democrats like democracy, human rights, and rule of law. As a group, democrats have lost everything, and you're still out here saying that the problem is messaging instead of realizing that the message is not popular.

Yes. Even as Trump did win the popular vote, almost the entire Democratic platform is decisively more popular than the Republican platform. People want healthcare. People want a functioning government. People want abortion rights. People even want LGBT rights. People want to tax the ultra-rich. People want more housing. People want Israel to stop genocid-ing Gaza. People believe in climate change. Yes, people want pretty much everything that's considered WOKE by the GOP, by and large. I could go on forever. All of this is borne out not only from opinion polling but actual voting- in red states like Florida, Missouri, Ohio, South Dakota, etc, people voted for "left" policies like a $15 minimum wage, legalizing weed, and overturning abortion bans.

It's a massive failure that the party that's correct on the issues- not only from a moral/ethical standpoint, but from a popularity standpoint, keeps losing elections. So yes, this is why I blame a lack of consistent and effective messaging and narrativizing. We know having popular policies is not enough. The Dems either don't know how to, or simply would rather not, effectively mobilize voters and create a brand.

You must first and foremost reckon with this fact. The United States of America wants a more authoritarian government. Period. Full stop. You have to deal with this fact, and the only way to really change this, is for them to get a taste and spit it out.

No disagreement whatsoever. But to say that there's nothing the Dems could have done (and I don't mean just 2024, but much longer ago) to prevent this from happening, is flat out insane. It's like saying that the invisible hand controls our entire economy.

The rest of your post I have no issues with.

 

[Exorcet]

The US WANTS!! this. I don't know how much more clear it can be. The defeat can hardly be more thorough. Trump even won the popular vote. After staging a coup and messing up a pandemic, he did BETTER in the election.

The US wanted this enough to get Trump elected but I do still think it's worth noting that it's not a unanimous vote at all. The election shows some terrible things about the US but I don't think the only option we have is to sit back and let it unfold. Pushing back is going to trigger a zealot response and that's very likely going to make the correction process long and drawn out, but there is too much risk in letting the course run naturally. Maybe people will learn their lesson, but there is no way of knowing. I also think that at that point they'll probably have the least opportunity to revert things.

In the near term Trump needs to opposed until he is just out of the game for one reason or another. What happens next depends on if he was truly unique in being able to rally supporters or if others can take over. If we're lucky it's just him and the organization of the side supporting him falls apart.

 

[CTznOfTime]

What do you think about this ?

 

[Danoff]

Yes. Even as Trump did win the popular vote, almost the entire Democratic platform is decisively more popular than the Republican platform. People want healthcare. People want a functioning government. People want abortion rights. People even want LGBT rights. People want to tax the ultra-rich. People want more housing. People want Israel to stop genocid-ing Gaza. People believe in climate change. Yes, people want pretty much everything that's considered WOKE by the GOP, by and large. I could go on forever. All of this is borne out not only from opinion polling but actual voting- in red states like Florida, Missouri, Ohio, South Dakota, etc, people voted for "left" policies like a $15 minimum wage, legalizing weed, and overturning abortion bans.

People want their handouts, but they want their handouts from a strongman who can dictate rather than from democracy, because they have no belief in the US system of government. And that's not going to change because some democrats want it to. They'll keep voting authoritarian until they learn not to.

The US wanted this enough to get Trump elected but I do still think it's worth noting that it's not a unanimous vote at all. The election shows some terrible things about the US but I don't think the only option we have is to sit back and let it unfold. Pushing back is going to trigger a zealot response and that's very likely going to make the correction process long and drawn out, but there is too much risk in letting the course run naturally. Maybe people will learn their lesson, but there is no way of knowing. I also think that at that point they'll probably have the least opportunity to revert things.

You're talking about trying to fight internally, but the fight is lost. Every facet of the government has been lost, and is being erased. I agree that there is too much risk in sitting back and hoping people change their mind and have the power left to do something about it. But I don't agree that the answer is to try to keep playing this stupid game.

In the near term Trump needs to opposed until he is just out of the game for one reason or another. What happens next depends on if he was truly unique in being able to rally supporters or if others can take over. If we're lucky it's just him and the organization of the side supporting him falls apart.

In the near term, we should not sit by. We should act immediately and with all available resources. We should have done it in November.

 

[McLaren]

What do you think about this ?

Sounds like a way for a bunch of foreigners to come in and engorge themselves on our resources for cheap.


But, it's ok because they're rich & conservatives still believe their money will "trickle down".

 

[Danoff]

What do you think about this ?

Quite a few countries have options like this. I don't have specific qualms over the US having these except that it's insane to have an option like this while deporting other people here. If we're going to support immigration, I detest the idea of supporting immigration for the rich only.

 

[Scaff]

What do you think about this ?

Fingers crossed it will help stop them 'investing' in London.

 

[TexRex]

There isn't a worthless Trumper (but I repeat myself) that isn't desperate to drop and give the bitch a sucky. Not a single one.

Donald Trump to be put on $250 bill under Republican proposal

Under the legislation, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing would be ordered to design a $250 bill bearing President Trump's face.

www.newsweek.com

Modern American conservatism is mental illness.

 

[Jezza819]

There isn't a worthless Trumper (but I repeat myself) that isn't desperate to drop and give the bitch a sucky. Not a single one.

Donald Trump to be put on $250 bill under Republican proposal

Under the legislation, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing would be ordered to design a $250 bill bearing President Trump's face.

www.newsweek.com

Modern American conservatism is mental illness.

I was almost certain there was going to be a resolution from Congress to rename President's Day to President Donald Trump Day or to make his birthday a legal holiday.

 

[TexRex]

I was almost certain there was going to be a resolution from Congress to rename President's Day to President Donald Trump Day or to make his birthday a legal holiday.

Republican proposes making Trump’s birthday a public holiday

Claudia Tenney’s bill combining Flag Day with Trump’s birthday could face steep odds of success in Congress

www.theguardian.com

 

[Joey D]

As someone who gets federal holidays off, I'm not opposed to Donald Trump Day, especially because it's June 14th. I'll take another summer holiday and because it's close to Juneteenth meaning I can have a nice little vacation right there. Silver linings and everything.

 

[Exorcet]

You're talking about trying to fight internally, but the fight is lost. Every facet of the government has been lost, and is being erased. I agree that there is too much risk in sitting back and hoping people change their mind and have the power left to do something about it. But I don't agree that the answer is to try to keep playing this stupid game.

It's not clear to me that there is nothing left to fight on that front. The state of the US government is appalling right now but it hasn't been completely dismantled. Trump and Elon shouldn't get compliance. I'm also hoping that resistance will appeal at some level to anyone that might be open to turning away from the side trying to destroy the country. By itself it might not do much, but it could raise the threshold at which people are willing to turn away from other factors like a failing economy.

In the near term, we should not sit by. We should act immediately and with all available resources. We should have done it in November.

No argument here. Unfortunately there has been a consistent pattern and not acting and letting things get worse. We should have never arrived at this point, but there is no undoing what was done.