Analog or Digital. Which do you prefer?

[Roo]

For me, analog. My budget for cars is usually about £500 - if it costs that much in parts and servicing because a manufacturer-specific computer needs to be plugged in to tell the car that everything's now fine then I can't afford to drive. My opinion might change if I earned enough to be able to afford a new car, but for now if I can't fix it myself it's no use to me.

(I must admit that I'm thoroughly enjoying the base model Micra I bought recently - the only creature-comfort electrics are the radio, lights, clock and cigerette lighter. Everything feels so simple. It's wonderful.)

For the general public, a mix of the two. I expect people who don't care about cars or driving won't care what's making it go either, so having the electronic nannys there just in case is a good thing.

Shyeah, because mechanical bits never go wrong! Pretty sure nearly every expensive bill I've had with a car has been because of oily bits!!

In a car with no computers, mechanical bits can be fixed relatively cheaply. Factor in the cost of having a dealer do the work not because the job requires it but because the computer says so and the price sky rockets.

But the real reason I posted is to ask a question.

Are people that insecure they need to make crap like this into yet another thing to feed their need to feel superior over others? (although I don't see this getting anywhere near as bad as the manual/auto crap)

I can't see any evidence of that in this thread so far, but I'm with you on the gearbox thing.

 

[MatskiMonk]

In a car with no computers, mechanical bits can be fixed relatively cheaply.

I take your point about computers, if a diagnosis is required in this fashion... But in general it's easier to replace electronic components than mechanical ones, at least in my experience with 30 odd years worth of BMWs burning holes in my wallet!

 

[Danoff]

I don't really see anything wrong with the OP's question either, nor how he posed it.

I think this was directed at me.

The reason I say it's too vague is because the definition of what constitutes analog vs. digital and whether we're talking about implementation or user-facing components is left to the reader. As a result, I've seen about a dozen responses that talk all around each other, not at all on the same page as far as verbiage. It's a very confused read.

Perhaps the very reason an argument hasn't erupted is because nobody knows whether they disagree with any of the posts.

Is an analog control with a digital implementation digital or analog?

That's a photo of an analog control with digital implementation which many reviewers attest to offering a better analog feel than many analog controls with analog implementation. What category does it belong in?

 

[Wolfe]

^ Yeah I'm not really sure what we should be talking about.

Shyeah, because mechanical bits never go wrong! Pretty sure nearly every expensive bill I've had with a car has been because of oily bits!!

Sometimes electric/mechanical doesn't make much difference, and sometimes it does -- an oil level sensor is a rather silly and vulnerable stand-in for a dipstick. It's a pain when something designed for convenience that isn't strictly necessary becomes an inconvenience simply because its electrics have failed -- like a central locking system gone haywire, randomly locking/unlocking your doors.

Convenience is nice, but I like simplicity better.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I take it as whether the "linkage" between component and driver is separated or interfered with by electronics, since this will have a bearing on the control/feedback - this might be a speedo, it might be the steering.

 

[Joey D]

Convenience is nice, but I like simplicity better.

Most new car buyers though want convenience in their vehicles, that's why there's such a big push towards it. Also you have to remember a majority of the car buying public knows nothing about how a car works, so something like a oil level sensor is good for someone who doesn't know what a dipstick is.

 

[Northstar]

Unless one or two unnamed members appear in this thread and start misrepresenting their opinions as facts, I see no reason this thread can't continue to be as civil as it has been so far.

And I hope it does remain this civil, my comment was aimed more at the subject matter than any actual posts.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I think this was directed at me.

The reason I say it's too vague is because the definition of what constitutes analog vs. digital and whether we're talking about implementation or user-facing components is left to the reader. As a result, I've seen about a dozen responses that talk all around each other, not at all on the same page as far as verbiage. It's a very confused read.

Perhaps the very reason an argument hasn't erupted is because nobody knows whether they disagree with any of the posts.

Is an analog control with a digital implementation digital or analog?

That's a photo of an analog control with digital implementation which many reviewers attest to offering a better analog feel than many analog controls with analog implementation. What category does it belong in?

I meant the discussion to be vague. Another way to describe my initial post is 'provoking open ended discussion.' That's why I said 'and why'

It's clearly not a black and white sort of topic. For instance, the Subaru BR-Z/FR-S uses many elements that I would classify as 'digital' (electric steering, drive by wire) but it uses these elements to infer a very 'analogue' driving experience. So I would hate the discussion to be bogged down to a only per-device type of line items, but these things are definitely on the table.

As I said before, I dislike the level to which some cars have been engineered to smooth things out. My Mazda2, for me, has a very slushly and elastic feeling throttle pedal, due to the DBW's initial preset. It feels digital in the way that it decides what throttle position it should be, depending generally on the driver's input. This is the kind of bad digital interference. It's all the more apparent in a chassis that feels very old school. I'd like to think the 2 isn't far off a first gen VW GTi or Pug 205 GTi, but the throttle feels to artificial.

 

[niky]

Edit: and I darn sure don't want analogue audio in a car !

I'd argue an 8-track is a far more enticing proposition than a CD-player. (Then again, those are analogue signals translated through a digital piece of equipment!) But a media player with solid state storage is infinitely more convenient and reliable than either.

Of course... you know you want this...

Sometimes electric/mechanical doesn't make much difference, and sometimes it does -- an oil level sensor is a rather silly and vulnerable stand-in for a dipstick. It's a pain when something designed for convenience that isn't strictly necessary becomes an inconvenience simply because its electrics have failed -- like a central locking system gone haywire, randomly locking/unlocking your doors.

There are several "analogue" items I would rather not see return:

1. Carburetors - A simple pull-through venturi is a perfectly simple and foolproof way to feed fuel to an engine. But a carburetor that needs to work in all kinds of weather, in all kinds of driving situations and with varying levels of gasoline quality is anything but simple. Fuel injection is simpler, with less moving parts, and fewer points of failure.

2. Distributors - Too many moving parts. Too complex. Electronic ignition is much simpler and much more robust. Sure, there are sensors, but replacing a distributor cap with an integrated cam position sensor is a whole lot more involved than popping off a cam position sensor screwed to the side of the head and screwing a new one in.

3. IACV - One happy side effect of electronic throttles? No need for finicky vacuum-controlled idle air control valves, blow-off valves and a million miles of vacuum tubing.

On the fence:

1. Hydraulic power steering - Pump surge due to changing rpm. Pump overheating and cavitation. Over-pressure conditions leading to failure. While most hydraulic racks "feel" better, that's more a condition of how the electric system is applied than anything else. Rack-mounted motors are great (MINI), as well as electro-hydraulic systems, which give you the same "feel" as pure hydraulic, but eliminate that annoying pulse when you've got some steering angle dialled in and the car is idling.

2. Cable / E-Throttle - But this is all about programming. The lag you get in e-throttles is entirely due to emissions requirements. Sudden changes of throttle position cause transient rich and lean conditions which increase emissions. If you're willing to sacrifice a little cleanliness, e-throttles can be made more responsive than cable-throttles. And they don't get stuck. Unless you're CBS news and trying to prove a point by faking a stuck throttle...

 

[Badasp5.0]

2. Distributors - Too many moving parts. Too complex. Electronic ignition is much simpler and much more robust. Sure, there are sensors, but replacing a distributor cap with an integrated cam position sensor is a whole lot more involved than popping off a cam position sensor screwed to the side of the head and screwing a new one in.

Unless you are a hot rodder and you want to adjust the engines base timing. Doing via a distributor is cake with a timing light vs having to make adjustments to the cars ECU. (Some American cars had both, really the best of both worlds IMHO) And some times cam positions sensors are in horrible hard to get to places the Jeep 4.0 I6 comes to mind.

 

[niky]

Electronic ignition is basically self-adjusting.

But you can buy a few tools to do it yourself on all-electronic engines. Admittedly, you'll spend (guilty), but adjusting timing via a 2D/3D table is much more precise than doing it by distributor. And knock sensors act as a sort of safety net if you go a bit too far.

If automakers desired, they could build in "tune-up" functionality into their cars, allowing you to adjust them via bluetooth... but they don't care much about guys like us...

 

[kikie]

Shyeah, because mechanical bits never go wrong! Pretty sure nearly every expensive bill I've had with a car has been because of oily bits!!

Older cars with no electronics have less problems than new cars with a lot of electronics. Take good care of an older analog car and it will keep on going. Take good care of a new digital car and you don't know if you're going to have problems or not.

 

[homeforsummer]

On the fence:

1. Hydraulic power steering

2. Cable / E-Throttle

I'm with you on those. I've driven a few modern cars where you really wouldn't know it had EPAS rather than hydraulic, or an electronic throttle rather than a cable.

I suppose the good thing about electronic throttle/steering is that you can adjust it pretty easily if you wish. Not necessarily as a bloke in a garage, but because manufacturers often give you the option of adjusting assistance/feedback and response.

True enough, I'd prefer one setting that just worked well in the first place, but that setting wouldn't necessarily be best for the emissions stuff, which is a necessity of news cars these days.

Older cars with no electronics have less problems than new cars with a lot of electronics. Take good care of an older analog car and it will keep on going. Take good care of a new digital car and you don't know if you're going to have problems or not.

While I don't disagree that the right older car will go on forever if looked after, you've made a huge generalisation there. By and large newer cars are hugely more reliable and less problematic than older ones, even with the reams of electronics you get these days. The bad ones are pretty poor obviously, but then the bad older cars have either rusted away, been scrapped, or blown their engines or transmissions by now so whatever is left tends to be pretty good.

I'm old enough to remember the days when a parent's car simply wouldn't start in the morning, for a reason of its choosing. And half a dozen of my friends would have had the same thing with their parents' cars before school.

New cars have essentially get so good that we take them for granted a lot more now. The reason the Japanese car industry grew as big as it has is because their cars weren't crocks of crap and they actually started on cold, damp mornings, and didn't have hissy fits if somebody farted three counties over. And everyone had to catch up, and now everything is pretty good.

Incidentally, a newer car, if looked after, will be as reliable as an older car if looked after. While you can't discount random failures, cars are just as appreciative of good maintenance and good driving as they ever were. And they do much higher mileages as a rule, too.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'm old enough to remember the days when a parent's car simply wouldn't start in the morning, for a reason of its choosing. And half a dozen of my friends would have had the same thing with their parents' cars before school.

IIRC correctly there's virtually no problem on a Rover 200 that couldn't be fixed with this magical can!

 

[homeforsummer]

IIRC correctly there's virtually no problem on a Rover 200 that couldn't be fixed with this magical can!

You mean apart from it being a Rover 200?

I bet it would have struggled with our Citroen Visa too. Used to do all sorts of fun things like suddenly decide it didn't like electricity or randomly flood for no good reason. Had the best interior ever though, so I'll forgive it.

 

[MatskiMonk]

You mean apart from it being a Rover 200?

Well yes, to be fair it didn't fix the head gasket either of the times is went, or prevent the sub frames from turning to purest iron oxide... but these things didn't stop the car from getting me to school so often.

However, a little more on topic, it was the 2nd generation Rover 200 I had (Dad worked for Rover, the family got through a lot of them over the years), that was the last car I had that didn't have power assisted steering, and I always missed that.

 

[homeforsummer]

My Fiesta and Beetle didn't, the MX5, Panda and Rover did. I also kinda miss cars without power steering though, even if it's sometimes a pain in the butt when you're parking. Bit of a lottery whether my next car has it, given the wide range of things I'm looking at. I'd be happy either way, really.

 

[motortrend]

Most new car buyers though want convenience in their vehicles, that's why there's such a big push towards it. Also you have to remember a majority of the car buying public knows nothing about how a car works, so something like a oil level sensor is good for someone who doesn't know what a dipstick is.

I disagree with the dipstick part until I find a car with a decent sensor. I absolutely hate the one in the E9x M3 and it will make it a bit annoying whenever I do an oil change myself since it takes a while for it to show the level and it's not very accurate. I get that it's easier for people, but first of all it doesn't get much simpler than a stick with a couple of lines and secondly you can still have a dipstick if you have the digital sensor.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

2. Cable / E-Throttle - But this is all about programming. The lag you get in e-throttles is entirely due to emissions requirements. Sudden changes of throttle position cause transient rich and lean conditions which increase emissions. If you're willing to sacrifice a little cleanliness, e-throttles can be made more responsive than cable-throttles. And they don't get stuck. Unless you're CBS news and trying to prove a point by faking a stuck throttle...

I don't understand how an E-throttle can be more responsive than a direct connection. While an e-throttle can infinitely approach the response time of a direct connection, I can't see how it could ever 100% match or exceed a cable/linkage throttle. If properly setup, the cable is in a direct 1:1 relationship to your foot.

I have to say, I do like electronics controlling the engine for street use. There is a certain amount of interference you can detect, but the benefit is generally worth it for reasons above. But a perfectly-tuned carb on a well built engine is a spectacular thing. It makes the car feel so alive. I've never driven a car with an ITB setup, so I'm curious to see how close it feels. I think that will be my next project for the RX-7. Peripheral port with EFI and a fat dual 51mm IDA-style throttle body. 11,000+ rpm here we come. Mmmmm

 

[MatskiMonk]

I don't understand how an E-throttle can be more responsive than a direct connection. While an e-throttle can infinitely approach the response time of a direct connection, I can't see how it could ever 100% match or exceed a cable/linkage throttle. If properly setup, the cable is in a direct 1:1 relationship to your foot.

I don't think I've had a car where the entire cable has had zero play or extension in it, some have been more accurate than others, but still I can easily imagine a fly-by-wire system being able to match the response time in the real world, and easily better the actuation time of going from fully closed to fully open (should you so need it for any reason) either way, the type of socks & foot-wear you have on is likely to absorb those tiny differences more than the linkage type (subject to e-throttles not being programmed with any delay) IMHO.

 

[eight6er]

I was just thinking things like steering, throttle and brakes when I replied. There are many other things mentioned here I did not take into consideration. Like I would never choose a carburetor over a good fuel injection, as every vehicle with a carb I owned gave trouble and needed attention. I never had any problem with any fuel injection system in a car I owned.

 

[niky]

...and easily better the actuation time of going from fully closed to fully open...

This is basically it. Even better, you can program it for non-linear response... which gives you similar benefits to electronic ignition control. Instead of a simple linear relationship, you can have a throttle that allows more precise "feathering", while being extremely responsive when you goose the pedal.

Perhaps when the emissions bugbears caused by transient rich and lean conditions when going from full throttle to closed and vice versa are eliminated, people will start to appreciate the system.

On EVs, of course, throttle response is not a problem. And that's purely digital.

 

[Liquid]

I thought this thread was about gauges. Incredibly disappointed.

So this, and so analogue gauges.

As for the actual thread, I've not driven enough cars to pass fair comment. But in my opinion? Analogue. I would try and come up with my own reasoning if I wasn't so lazy, so I'll go for the stock answer and say it's all about the 'feel' of the thing.

Trying to not sit on the fence, because I don't actually care that much. Either, really.

 

[Crash]

I don't really care.

...

In the end, again, I don't really care what's underneath the hood.

As long as the car makes me happy, it'll make me happy, whatever the motivation or interface. And it won't be too long before they cross the uncanny valley, and become good enough that they'll make even the luddites happy, too.

I agree with niky, and I think he put it way better than I can ever express it.

I don't understand how an E-throttle can be more responsive than a direct connection. While an e-throttle can infinitely approach the response time of a direct connection, I can't see how it could ever 100% match or exceed a cable/linkage throttle. If properly setup, the cable is in a direct 1:1 relationship to your foot.

Cables tend to stretch and have slack in them over time. Also, since the cable is physically attached to the throttle body, the speed of which the valve on the body opens to let air in will be fixed to the speed at which you press down on the pedal. A drive-by-wire system has no cable slack and can be programmed such that the motor that opens the throttle valve opens as fast or slow, or as much or as little as the programmer desired, giving a sensation of better throttle response.

This is basically it. Even better, you can program it for non-linear response... which gives you similar benefits to electronic ignition control. Instead of a simple linear relationship, you can have a throttle that allows more precise "feathering", while being extremely responsive when you goose the pedal.

Specifically, cable throttles only open linearly in angular direction. However, the volume of air that enters through the throttle is generally not linear due to the shape of the valve and the sweep that it makes when opening, so throttle response is... not really linear at all.