Analysing Setups

[powell145]

Where did you get your information that decreasing rear rebound will induce more oversteer?

Everything I've read says the opposite in regards to damper tuning, plus, my real-life auto-x & track experience backs this in my STi. Stiffer rear rebound = a looser back-end; also backed this opinion by a National Champion in Auto-x.

"Entry Understeer - Increase the rebound of rear shocks. Decrease the bump of front shocks."

Stiffer rear rebound = stiffer rear end = more prone to oversteer; not understeer. How is stiffer rebound not tightening the rear end?

 

[st1sj]

q: how do you prevent brake oversteer (a la formula GT)? lower rear brake bias to 1? increase stiffness front and rear to prevent weight transfer?

 

[TakahashiRyoske]

Stiffer rear rebound = a looser back-end

Stiffer rear rebound = stiffer rear end = more prone to oversteer; not understeer.

Would you say, then, that to help correct oversteer during entry (braking), one should decrease rear extension dampers, not increase?

 

[blaktek]

Good tips. I hope they'll be able to get through that numb skull of mine.

 

[Will27]

Where did you get your information that decreasing rear rebound will induce more oversteer?

Everything I've read says the opposite in regards to damper tuning, plus, my real-life auto-x & track experience backs this in my STi. Stiffer rear rebound = a looser back-end; also backed this opinion by a National Champion in Auto-x.

"Entry Understeer - Increase the rebound of rear shocks. Decrease the bump of front shocks."

Stiffer rear rebound = stiffer rear end = more prone to oversteer; not understeer. How is stiffer rebound not tightening the rear end?

By setting a stiffer rear extension, the rear shock will resist extending meaning the back of the car wont lift up as much when decelerating. Keeps more weight at the back of the car, reducing oversteer. Well thats the theory. Seems to work in GT

EDIT: Just thought more about what you said. If the Rear rebound is stiff and the front springs/swaybar/compression is too soft, depending on the rear springs/swaybars, the car will try to lift the inside rear wheel off the ground. That gives the oversteer you described

 

[powell145]

Would you say, then, that to help correct oversteer during entry (braking), one should decrease rear extension dampers, not increase?

Yes, I would.

By setting a stiffer rear extension, the rear shock will resist extending meaning the back of the car wont lift up as much when decelerating. Keeps more weight at the back of the car, reducing oversteer. Well thats the theory. Seems to work in GT

Yes, I can see that if you trail brake into the corner and turn in while the car is still in dynamic motion from braking. Softer rear rebound, would allow the rear tires to unload easier under heavy braking and turn in - in theory.

Now most of us (I hope) don't go plowing into a corner too fast, trail brake too much, and get the rear loose by quickly unloading the read with the brakes and very soft rebound.

Most complete most of the braking before you turn in, all the dynamic shock motion front/rear has occured at the moment you got on the brakes hard - only your springs matter after that point. Now you turn-in, the only dynamic motion for the shocks to handle is now left to right. A stiffer rear rebound now acts similar to a sway bar, resisting this side-to-side motion - therefore stiffening rear-rebound increases rear-roll resistance and more oversteer as a side-effect.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here - but in all my experience with damper tuning, one group says one thing about setup and another says the exact opposite when it come to this. I'm just trying to sort out if there is a definative theory and it sounds like, just as is the case with all other car setups, it just depends on what you are doing......

 

[powell145]

EDIT: Just thought more about what you said. If the Rear rebound is stiff and the front springs/swaybar/compression is too soft, depending on the rear springs/swaybars, the car will try to lift the inside rear wheel off the ground. That gives the oversteer you described

Ahh - yes, that common misconception; that's not always true either. I myself was battling dog-legging in my STi (3 wheeling, lifting the inside rear under HARD corners) - not my video game STi, my real one. EVERYONE, including reputable tuners, kept telling me my rebound is too stiff, or front was too soft. That's funny because my front wasn't too soft and I had dialed out all the rebound (full soft) and the problem just got worse.

So I did the opposite of what everyone told me to do and maxed rebound. Guess what, the rear stopped lifting, and less understeer insued (I figured fronts were waaayyy overloaded because of the lack of rebound - all my weight up front when I turned in, tires couldn't handle the load). Glad I didn't listen to everyone or I would have ruined my rear diff & they wanted me to try another setup.

 

[Will27]

Ahh - yes, that common misconception; that's not always true either. I myself was battling dog-legging in my STi (3 wheeling, lifting the inside rear under HARD corners) - not my video game STi, my real one. EVERYONE, including reputable tuners, kept telling me my rebound is too stiff, or front was too soft. That's funny because my front wasn't too soft and I had dialed out all the rebound (full soft) and the problem just got worse.

So I did the opposite of what everyone told me to do and maxed rebound. Guess what, the rear stopped lifting, and less understeer insued (I figured fronts were waaayyy overloaded because of the lack of rebound - all my weight up front when I turned in, tires couldn't handle the load). Glad I didn't listen to everyone or I would have ruined my rear diff & they wanted me to try another setup.

This is what I felt(you and your STi will prob. laugh at this) with my rc car. I was told to reduce oversteer to lay down my rear shocks(more horizontal position) or go to a thinner rear sway bar(or none). This made it worse! Did the opposite and it worked.

My guess is that because I have a front spool that stiffening the rear pressed both front wheels down, and since they are locked at the same speed, induced understeer and calmed the rear of the car.

A similar thing could be happening to your car? Could be something to do with the front diff? Just guessing anyway. I have no experience setting up a full size car.

 

[GT5SER]

Very helpful advice indeed, especially to those of us that are less than novice tuners. I tend to apply others' tunes without a great deal of thought on what I'm doing.

I have a question concerning fixing understeer in 4WD drivetrain cars. Is the OP's advice just as valid for 4WD? I have recently applied some others' setups to my ZZII and my Impreza WRX RM and they don't turn as well as they did before I applied these set-ups. How best to start tweaking them?

I have a ZZII that I've been tuning on for awhile and feel that it handles a lot better now. Add me and we can compare & tune on the "Ring". ID is in my sig.

Also, great help man, I vote for a sticky!

I've been hearing about spring rates and no one has said how to set them. Now I know and will get on it tonight after the kids go to bed.

- Jeramy

 

[GT5SER]

Bump for great info!


- Jeramy

 

[Calabolg]

Thanks for these tips.

 

[GT5SER]

Last bump!

 

[powerdrome]

Nice summary. Clever division for turn-in, mid, exit
I'd like to ask someone to specify which setting ( spring, ride height, bound, rebound, arb) influece MORE
turn-in, mid, exit

 

[Izzyracer97]

great tips even makes the Caterham 7 Fireblade a lot more stable

UPDATE: I use this for all my tuning it works great just wish you would have included toe and its effects on braking and handling. Here's what I've found the greater the difference between front and rear toe decreases braking power and visa versa. also the more negative toe in the front increases understeer and visa versa.

 

[Izzyracer97]

this should be moved to the gt6 tuning thread

 

[davidguire]

im a 22 year old professional tuner... i found (not stumbled on actually created and found a rl adapation for this 100% fully universal tune) a tune thats so versatile it works across all gran tourismo's and forza 3

ride height stock to as low as -20 below stock. suspension stiffness leave it stock to just slightly softer in the rear, dampener compression 0 resistance front and rear. dampener extention 50% (5) front and rear, anti roll bar 50% (4) front and rear, camber 1.0-1.5 front 0.5-1.0 rear, toe -0.10 front +0.20 rear (helps turn in speed and straight line stability), limited slip differential 100% (60) torque and acceleration sensitivity, 30% (20) braking/coasting sensetivity. weight redux max, power doesnt matter, downforce is optional, body kits optional, transmission is comex but will b posted later

 

[davidguire]

ok here is the transmission settings (please note all setting are started on final gear settings 4.222) (also please note all ratios with a / in between them is determined by both wanted effect and driving style) 1- 3.15 / 3.36, 2- 2.05 / 2.15 / 2.45, 3- 1.31 / 1.45, 4- 1.000, 5- 0.89 / 0.79/ 0.67, 6- 0.79 / 0.67 / 0.54, 7- 0.67 / 0.54 / 0.48, 8- 0.54 / 0.48... be warned if you dont use shorter ratio final gears with anything longer then 0.67 you are wasting acceleration.

 

[davidguire]

please note if i didnt mention the part its prolly good stock unless the car is really bad ( 4wd needs 35-40 power to front, front diff is usually 10 torque, 40 accel, 20 brake) *rarely needs adjusted unless modifing for specific needs and proformance.

 

[Izzyracer97]

Have u even played gt6 because if u have u would know that most of the cars run better with high ride heights also u would know that camber in gt6 is messed up because it only causes grip reduction when ever set to anything above 0 plus if u were really a professional tuner u would know there isn't any one setup that works for everyone. I'm a race car driver in real life and I setup my own cars so I know a little more than the average gamer

 

[davidguire]

Have u even played gt6 because if u have u would know that most of the cars run better with high ride heights also u would know that camber in gt6 is messed up because it only causes grip reduction when ever set to anything above 0 plus if u were really a professional tuner u would know there isn't any one setup that works for everyone. I'm a race car driver in real life and I setup my own cars so I know a little more than the average gamer

to answer your question i do play gt6 and yes i tune in real life... the tunes i start my base setup at is fully universal , ive tested it across many games and many people from personal family members on my account to close friends on my account and even had a few online friends test them, the obly cars i need to refine tunes for are fwd pieces of crud, and this setup works perfect on the pontiac sunfire and every rwd 4wd and mr ive put it on

 

[davidguire]

oh and in case you didnt read through my first post... i test all of my tunes in real life against real cars, i dont care about how fast my opponent is or what car it is, i havnt lost a race yet. and they fixed the camber glitch in gt6, ive got so much traction if i dont slow down even my vette c7 (940hp fully tuned and built, and adjusted for max traction) flipps over

 

[davidguire]

as well as most of my superlightweights, if i touch the traction bars with more then 50% throttle or extreme high speeds and slightly miss my drive line.

 

[davidguire]

btw i forgot to mention... 9/10 cars with this tune MUST be manual otherwise it doesnt respond well unless youre a master at throttle control.

 

[Ronald6]

Double posting is a no no.
Quad posting is... baaaaaad.
Edit your previous post if you need to add anything. Do not post twice in a row or more.

Thanks.

 

[davidguire]

Double posting is a no no.
Quad posting is... baaaaaad.
Edit your previous post if you need to add anything. Do not post twice in a row or more.

Thanks.

im posting from a phone... my phone wont leyt me edit my posts

 

[Izzyracer97]

@davidguire u say u have never lost a race with your tune. Honestly I can't believe that unless u are racing against amateurs. but, if you care to put your money where your mouth is the new senna lotus that will be coming this month is a perfect proving ground I bet you I can beat u in a race with it if we both have 2 weeks to set it up.

oh and in case you didnt read through my first post... i test all of my tunes in real life against real cars, i dont care about how fast my opponent is or what car it is, i havnt lost a race yet. and they fixed the camber glitch in gt6, ive got so much traction if i dont slow down even my vette c7 (940hp fully tuned and built, and adjusted for max traction) flipps over

I read your first post and if you didn't read my reply all the way through I setup my own real life racecar and have taken $10,000 classes on how to setup a racecar. being a driver also helps me apply what I know and be able to adjust the car accordingly. The Gran turismo games have a simple setup menu so that it is easy for everyone to set there cars up the way they like it. Speaking from experience I have never driven a car that you can adjust dampers on as everything I've ever run has coilover suspension so you adjust the handling of the car by moving the track bar or taking a round in/out on the shocks which makes it much harder IMO. Plus there are no tire pressure adjustments in the games so we don't have that setup perameter that can greatly effect the handling of the cars. Plus, if your vette flips over it means your running offline which is alot different from racing online because you can't actually flip totally over online and the grip level is a whole lot less. judging by your other posts I'd say its pretty safe to assume you only have ever raced against the AI and everyone knows that the AI in the newer GT games are garbage and easy to beat. its no wonder you have never lost a race you have never raced anyone!

 

[davidguire]

@davidguire u say u have never lost a race with your tune. Honestly I can't believe that unless u are racing against amateurs. but, if you care to put your money where your mouth is the new senna lotus that will be coming this month is a perfect proving ground I bet you I can beat u in a race with it if we both have 2 weeks to set it up.




I read your first post and if you didn't read my reply all the way through I setup my own real life racecar and have taken $10,000 classes on how to setup a racecar. being a driver also helps me apply what I know and be able to adjust the car accordingly. The Gran turismo games have a simple setup menu so that it is easy for everyone to set there cars up the way they like it. Speaking from experience I have never driven a car that you can adjust dampers on as everything I've ever run has coilover suspension so you adjust the handling of the car by moving the track bar or taking a round in/out on the shocks which makes it much harder IMO. Plus there are no tire pressure adjustments in the games so we don't have that setup perameter that can greatly effect the handling of the cars. Plus, if your vette flips over it means your running offline which is alot different from racing online because you can't actually flip totally over online and the grip level is a whole lot less. judging by your other posts I'd say its pretty safe to assume you only have ever raced against the AI and everyone knows that the AI in the newer GT games are garbage and easy to beat. its no wonder you have never lost a race you have never raced anyone!

if i had internet on my ps3 now i would put you to the test on that... i took $50,000 classes how to build tune and fix any/all cars... my daily driver was a '99 cavalier rally sport 2door with 210 hp 400 ftlbs torque no turbo or supercharger, my secret was my chevy s10 4cyclinder modified for transaxel use and extreme simplification, below 40 i had full tcs engaged, at100+ full power with rpm cap at 6k rpm... topped out at 197, then burned my limited slip differential. i sould nuts or bsing you but it was drivibg denver colorado for a while,.

 

[Izzyracer97]

you wouldn't win anyway david I've been racing Ferrari F1's online in GT5 for 4 years now and I am one of the fastest in the game, just check my rank in the latest seasonal event for the Ferrari Formula cars my PSN is no_bull_racing97 I did my lap with an f10 which is harder to setup than the 07 is and if you take all the people with 07's away I would be in the top 5. I'm not your average idiot challenging you to a race because I think I'm the best driver in the world. I'm not the best but I'm pretty close to the top.