And this is why the current 5 second penalty is useless

  • Thread starter Voodoovaj
  • 49 comments
  • 4,451 views
Voodoovaj

Voodoovaj

3,768
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
The system seems fine at detecting things and fault much of the time. I am ok with the occasional errant 2-3, even 4 second penalty because the system has obviously detected that you are not completely at fault.

However, the 5 second penalty is the most useless P.O.S out there. If you have done something to garner a 5 second penalty, then you have done enough to get more. The system was doling out penalties by impact before, so it CAN give more penalty time for more aggressive contact.

Here is the kind of behaviour the current penalty is allowing. I will give you the background. This unnamed player was called out by another player who is friends with me within the context of the game. Friendly enough for a "Good to see you again". This friend's entry message states that the dirty player in this video is, indeed, dirty. He pulled a dirty move on me twice last week, and I let him know my feelings in the post race chat. So, here he is, a week later, giving me a little "how do you like me now?"

I am in the Alfa, he is in the Nissan. No attempt at braking what so ever. What did he get? Some type of penalty. I don't know what it was because he managed to burn it off on his way to finishing in the top 5. Meanwhile, I am dropped to the back of the field and did all I could to get back to 13th. Also, he maintains his SR S status (in red). Also, he BENEFITS by finishing in the top 5 still.



Now, dirty player or not, the POINT of this post is that kind of dirty driving that we ALL hate and all feel needs to be done away with is met with an ineffectual penalty. There is no real deterrent to this player for his actions. Meanwhile, I have to bust my butt to recover whatever DR points I lost for finishing so far down the order, never mind the disruption. Yes, I reported him, but that's still not the point. This WOULD NOT HAPPEN if the penalty were 10 seconds, 20 seconds, or preferably more for this kind of impact and an SR reset to E.

People need to be afraid of the consequences of this kind of behaviour, but, as of right now, there is no real deterrent to it.

There is no reason why the penalty time cannot be exponential and attached to impact force. The amount of times a person will accidentally receive a complete reset pales in comparison to how often people intentionally drive dirty now.
 
In my entire GT Sport career I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve been punted like this. So it doesn’t make sense to me, for the other 99% of the time, to constantly be worried of a flawed penalty system giving me a 10, 15, or 20 second penalty for something that might not even be my fault. I don’t have that much trust in any AI based Penalty System.

Sometimes you need to just take it on the chin and realize that online competitive racing games will always be dirty to some degree. And the only solution to this would be damage, or real-life stewards like they use at the World Finals. Both of which will never come to Sport Mode. If you want racing like that, I suggest you join an online league.
 
ARTAsean
Sometimes you need to just take it on the chin and realize that online competitive racing games will always be dirty to some degree. And the only solution to this would be damage, or real-life stewards like they use at the World Finals. Both of which will never come to Sport Mode. If you want racing like that, I suggest you join an online league.
Click to expand...

I disagree, first off, leagues don't support the system which is what keeps me playing. Secondly, I don't have time to dedicate to a league and league schedules. Sport Mode provides enough structure, known times, and fine competition.

However, as of right now, the ineffectual penalties are making situations like this more common.

ARTAsean
In my entire GT Sport career I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve been punted like this. So it doesn’t make sense to me, for the other 99% of the time, to constantly be worried of a flawed penalty system giving me a 10, 15, or 20 second penalty for something that might not even be my fault. I don’t have that much trust in any AI based Penalty System.
Click to expand...

As I stated, the system was, at one time, giving out penalty based on impact force. How often have you plowed into someone FULL FORCE hitting them hard enough to, not only send them off track, but have the force be so great that it causes the car to bounce off the wall and across the track?

How can that "not even be" your fault if it were to happen.

Right now, we can all get the minor penalties for things that aren't our fault. No big deal. But at the top of the penalty scale, the punishment must be greater.
 
Last edited:
ARTAsean
In my entire GT Sport career I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve been punted like this. So it doesn’t make sense to me, for the other 99% of the time, to constantly be worried of a flawed penalty system giving me a 10, 15, or 20 second penalty for something that might not even be my fault. I don’t have that much trust in any AI based Penalty System.

Sometimes you need to just take it on the chin and realize that online competitive racing games will always be dirty to some degree. And the only solution to this would be damage, or real-life stewards like they use at the World Finals. Both of which will never come to Sport Mode. If you want racing like that, I suggest you join an online league.
Click to expand...

Well can I have your ps account as in the last 4 races tonight I've race, I've been shunted up the arse tapped while over taking and spun around and gone to over take in the inside while the other driver goes wide, all of which I got a 3 sec pen, and the other guys nothing, I don't consider myself dirty at all I always pull out to sacrifice position & I still can't avoid these petty penaltys.

The penalty system is definitely flawed and if you can avoid all these bugs you must me superman.
 
kilesa4568
Brutal punt...

I'm well out of the loop as I haven't done a sport race since November. How bad is the dirty driving actually getting?
Click to expand...

Draggon
I have done one sport race since last September, so I'm curious too.
Click to expand...

Minor infractions are no big deal. Someone rubs you, or you somewhat bump them off track, or light taps, etc., Most of that goes off without a penalty. Most of the time it's just an SR down.

There is plenty of 3-4 second penalties happening. Last week was rife with them!! But, I am OK with that. Little taps are racing. Stuff happens. However, I often see big punts and retaliations occurring and it's still only getting you 5 seconds. I see people putting their cars into positions that could be either be a 3-4 second penalty or a full 5. Why shouldn't they make that risky move? 1 second isn't even a second of real time.

As a comparison, I got a 3.2 second penalty for cutting the dipper too close. I didn't gain 3 seconds on that lap!

This is why I am saying that the top infraction needs to be MUCH larger. If you go deep into the braking zone on someone, you had better be confident that any contact that may occur will only result in a minor penalty. If your mistake results in major infraction of 10-20 seconds and TRUE SR hit, people will think twice.

Why is PD allowing truly dirty and/or truly reckless moves go essentially unpunished when there is enough sophistication in this system to stop this?

Don't think a full SR reset will work? Consider this, your SR limits your DR and people are working hard to maintain their DR.

Imagine for a moment, that you are a speeder. You are about 1 hour into a 2 hour trip. You get pulled over. Now, most people get a fine, correct? Imagine if the penalty was that you had to return to your point of departure and being your trip over again? How many people would speed if they knew the risk was that, instead of getting to where they are going sooner, they would be delayed by hours? Not many I reckon.
 
Voodoovaj
Don't think a full SR reset will work?
Click to expand...

I think that's the crux of it. Easily obtained SR and a cushion to get robust in a couple of races before losing it becomes an issue.

Racing around people and especially going wheel to wheel is (virtually) dangerous and SR should reflect that. Instead of a full point, make each clean sector equal .5 or even lower for an SR point. They're too easy to accumulate and fall back on if you want to get a bit naughty.

High G punts like yours should be easily spotted by an algorithm and would warrant 10 seconds and an instant slowdown. Those instant slowdowns worked pretty well in quick matches. Not perfect but they at least put some distance between each driver.
 
ARTAsean
I don’t have that much trust in any AI based Penalty System.
Click to expand...
Is there any chance we can stop calling it an "AI based penalty system", because its not AI based. Its nothing more than an "If this, then that" system (if [contact] then [penalty]). There's nothing intelligent about it.
 
DJShadesUK
Is there any chance we can stop calling it an "AI based penalty system", because its not AI based. Its nothing more than an "If this, then that" system (if [contact] then [penalty]). There's nothing intelligent about it.
Click to expand...

What you describe is a rudimentary AI system. I know a few people who actually run their real lives in such a fashion :)

But seriously, plenty of AI systems are decisions trees. If "this" then "check", if true go to this, if false go to that. Etc, etc. You can throw various algorithms into the checks, but decision trees are a common form of AI. See more on the topic here --> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00116251

None the less, what difference does it make? Call it "cake" if it makes you happy.


I am here to present exhibit B. This time, I am the unlucky person in the wrong place at the wrong time where this fellow scores a 2-4-1. FYI, Again, 5 seconds. Burns it off no problem. Goes on to finish 2nd. SR S maintained. Meanwhile, I finished almost dead last. I won't even bother showing the atrocities along the way.



He should have gotten at least 10 seconds and a DR E for each contact.
 
Last edited:
Voodoovaj
What you describe is a rudimentary AI system. I know a few people who actually run their real lives in such a fashion :)

But seriously, plenty of AI systems are decisions trees. If "this" then "check", if true go to this, if false go to that. Etc, etc. You can throw various algorithms into the checks, but decision trees are a common form of AI. See more on the topic here --> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00116251

None the less, what difference does it make? Call it "cake" if it makes you happy.


I am here to present exhibit B. This time, I am the unlucky person in the wrong place at the wrong time where this fellow scores a 2-4-1. FYI, Again, 5 seconds. Burns it off no problem. Goes on to finish 2nd. SR S maintained. Meanwhile, I finished almost dead last. I won't even bother showing the atrocities along the way.



He should have gotten at least 10 seconds and a DR E for each contact.
Click to expand...


Anyone who thinks that this penalty system is not flawed is off their rocker. Not only does the punter not receive adequate penalty time he may not even get a penalty at all and the puntee may end up with an SR down for the honor of getting hit. Today in race A I got knocked off at T1 by someone who either forgot to brake or was way late braking for T1. For my efforts I went from 2nd to last, the punter entered the corner in 5th, and knocked 3rd and 2nd off the track and was awarded no penalty.
 
I agree that bringing back longer penalties based on impact should be brought back for sure. They need to penalize rear ending and rear quarter panel or door or any hit from behind to a much higher degree. Im personally not to worried about players trying to play the system by brake checking but Im sure PD can gauge it based on the proximity to an accepted braking zone. If someone is just slow or you are simply racing too close then it just is what it is.
If you got much more impactful penalties for hitting from behind and had to serve that penalty right away at a deignated pit lane speed in real time once your car gets down to that speed. It would seperate conflicting players and give instant punishment. I think the only way to make that choice of barge passing or "out braking" 3 cars at once in traffic or straight up punting someone off track, something worth thinking twice about.10 seconds should be a minimum for putting someone off track or ruining their race.
Also bigger sr hits for big hits and maybe a little less for tiny minor bumps if it doesnt cause the car in front to lose traction or control.
 
NosOsH
... Im personally not to worried about players trying to play the system by brake checking but Im sure PD can gauge it based on the proximity to an accepted braking zone....
Click to expand...

They don't even have to do that. If the top level penalties are increased, and penalties are given based on impact force (again) then a brake check would still be a minor infraction as best.

If someone brake checks you to the point of being punted off course, that's a pretty risky move on their part. This person would be a pretty vindictive jerk, and you could still report them. It likely won't happen as often as the unpleasantness were see now.

In any event, the game already knows if you are someplace where you should be slowing because that's how it knows to show you the suggested gear.
 
Sven Jurgens
The easiest solution is ghosting. The game should ghost these punters, then slap them with a penalty for the emergency ghosting while resetting their car back to before the corner.
Click to expand...
I’ve said this so many times that GT5 had it right. Moderate contact was okay but if somebody tried to torpedo you at a crazy speed, they’d very likely ghost right through you.

I cannot remember the last time I did a Daily Race because GT Sport just feels like an accident waiting to happen. No it doesn’t happen very frequently at SR 99 but the problem is that it can happen and it’s a terrible thing to live in fear.
 
Sander 001
I cannot remember the last time I did a Daily Race because GT Sport just feels like an accident waiting to happen. No it doesn’t happen very frequently at SR 99 but the problem is that it can happen and it’s a terrible thing to live in fear.
Click to expand...

(For the sake of having this statement standout for the benefit of anyone reading this post, I have set the statement below to bold)

The videos I have posted are from races with players ranging from DR S to DR B (as in the entire field). The people in the video are DR B (first one) and the second was a DR A IIRC (could have also been a B, but could have been an A+). I was at SR 99 for both of these races.

There might have been a C player somewhere in the back that I didn't notice, but these occurred at prime times.

That this would occur at SR B or lower would not surprise me. That this is occurring in a room that should have been proper racing is why I am sounding the alarm.

There is a growing sentiment of "get out of my way" and a general irreverence for others on the track. People at all levels are starting to play Sport Mode as if it were a single player game.
 
Last edited:
I just dont get how getting hit from behind 95% is penalized at all, let alone in my experience >50% at a higher degree than the rear ender.
If you are chasing somebody and they are "slowing" you down, it does not give license to touch them let alone push/barge/smash them out of the way. Getting past them in a gentlemanly manner ' IS RACING' and if you cant pass them without touching them then accept it and wait till a fair opportunity to or be penalized.
I dont care about PD's lack of communication when it comes to updates for new content, but I really wish they would acknowledge the penalty system is broken and has never really worked and hopefully that they are working on it. I love this game but it could be soooo good if it were fixed.
 
I am in total agreement with the OP here regarding the current state of the penalty system.

I took a week off and thought to myself I would have some Race C since I like the Mountain and I thought had a decent time for starting up
front.

The first race I was wrecked in less than a lap and I saw myself disappear to the depths of DR point 1 with many five second penalties for wall
collisions as people were colliding everywhere and I almost lost my SR S at one point.

I decided to myself enough and went to Race A/B the rest of the week and got most of my lost points back again but something needs to happen
with the penalty system, I am not looking forward to this week's racing in Grp 2 but I am not one to "hide" so I'll see how it goes later on.
 
Yeah, I don't get why the game can't decide why a sudden impact at 20 30 40 50 mph more impact then the average joe can not be calculated into bigger penalties, its clear that a 60mph corner should be taken at 60 mph so at 70 80 or 90 would clearly give that person a bigger penalty. The game does not need to know the exact value of the speed for each corner just set a buffer margin, it will be far better than trying to judge each collision on the angle, track position, acceleration peddle position and brake peddle position.

I know they are trying to base the game on the professional level, where the margins are much less and the players can follow heel to toe and not collide and as they are going so fast and the slightest touch is enough to send them off, meaning the penalty system don't need to feel the abrupt collisions we are getting in our "lower skilled" games as the players are more efficient at controlling there cars. But we are all trying to play the same game here and I just feel the game dynamic bias is not adjusted enough for the lower leagues to have a go at racing, its more a game of avoiding the idiots or petty crimes.
 
And I present evidence that the system, aside from being too lenient, is currently buggy and in need of attention.

This received no penalty.



Now, on Monday night, I watched a Subaru dive bomb me at the hairpin. I moved out of the way, and he rammed the car in front of me in the left side. There was enough force to push that lambo ALMOST off track. Also, no penalty received.

Armed with all this knowledge, I felt this bold move would go unpunished, but no. 2 seconds penalty for me.



Bold move, yes, but as you can see in the slow mo, I almost pulled it off without contact. Yes, almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, but doesn't this all seem like the system needs some attention right now?

My current longest clean race streak is 6 races. The rear end SR down is killing me. However, do you know when I hit that streak? When the penalty system was at its most harsh. Right now, I need to lead from pole and not see anyone if I have a HOPE of getting a clean race bonus. Even then, somehow I get robbed. I should not have to be on track all alone to be hoping for a clean race bonus.
 
If you're the Lambo in No Penalty Pt.2, then the 2 second penalty is more than likely for cutting that corner, and not for contact.

The corner regularly gives out a 2 second penalty; I got a 1.92 there this lunchtime.
 
GTP_TO Blue
If you're the Lambo in No Penalty Pt.2, then the 2 second penalty is more than likely for cutting that corner, and not for contact.

The corner regularly gives out a 2 second penalty; I got a 1.92 there this lunchtime.
Click to expand...

I doubt it. When I cut a corner I usually get something with decimal places, like a 1.342 or a 2.342, something along those lines. Since it was 2.000, it was a contact penalty. Not that it shouldn't be. I'm fine with the penalty. I simply think that it should be more consistent. If that other guy would have stayed on track, I would likely have gotten nothing. And, in the case where I was run off, since I was run off into an asphalt run off zone, it was not penalized.

If you are run off track, it should always be a penalty. If you hit someone hard enough to knock them off line, it should be a penalty.
 
I bring you yet another installment in the "5 second penalties are useless" anthology. Notice how I have no issue stopping close to the car ahead of me without hitting them? There's no excuse for this other than careless driving.



So, 5 second penalty (because I saw it pop up) and he STILL won the race. SR S in red. How is it EVEN A PENALTY if there is no repercussion? He ruined the race of TWO players and he potentially wouldn't even have been on podium if it weren't for the carnage created. Why wasn't it 10 seconds? The system obviously knew he was at fault. The system knew that I didn't cause the player ahead of me to go off because I didn't even get an SR down! The system KNOWS what happened.

It's the penalty value itself that is wholly inadequate. This player should be busted back down to SR E until he learns how to race among other people! How can you be an SR S if you don't know enough to stop for a corner??!!
 
They could fix this with a better damage model, where if you do something like that, your car becomes inoperable. That's what would happen in real life. Why not reflect this in the game?

They also have the makings of a better tiered system, with the SR rating. They just need to prevent different rating players from participating in the same race.

The problem is that they have the two types of players (arcade, sim) racing in the same race. Just keep them separate.
 
My biggest issue is that when I’m following someone I lift off early on braking zones to avoid ramming them, I go ahead and pass them, only for them to dive bomb me in the next turn and throw me off the racing line and I somehow get an SR down... what do I have to do? It feels like trying to be patient and respectful is playing with a handicap, while aggressiveness is rewarded.
 
snakeismycat
They could fix this with a better damage model, where if you do something like that, your car becomes inoperable. That's what would happen in real life. Why not reflect this in the game?

They also have the makings of a better tiered system, with the SR rating. They just need to prevent different rating players from participating in the same race.

The problem is that they have the two types of players (arcade, sim) racing in the same race. Just keep them separate.
Click to expand...

I am approaching this in a realistic fashion. Aside from the fact that massive damage doesn't exist, it also doesn't prevent anything. In real life, it's not necessarily damage to the car people try to avoid as much as it's the potential for death. So, in keeping with that, massive slip ups like this should result in what is the closest thing to a player death in this game, which is a FULL reset of DR and SR. It's harsh, but it should be reserved for the most egregious infractions.

The infractions in this thread are definitely worth of an SR drop and immediate DR drop to correspond. If this player, or any of those in these videos, were dropped to DR D and SR B, they would likely either stop playing (problem solved) or they would be more careful next time (problem solved).

VrapPlus
My biggest issue is that when I’m following someone I lift off early on braking zones to avoid ramming them, I go ahead and pass them, only for them to dive bomb me in the next turn and throw me off the racing line and I somehow get an SR down... what do I have to do? It feels like trying to be patient and respectful is playing with a handicap, while aggressiveness is rewarded.
Click to expand...

Yes. Now, if you watch the F1 docu-series on Netflix (the name escapes me at the moment) you'll see all drivers call other drivers dirty, even in F1. Aggression IS how you get through. That said, there has to be some degree of care taken, because as I mention above, the risk of death isn't present, so we need the next best thing.
 

Similar threads

W
Penalty System Fix
Replies
3
Views
945
fisheye
fisheye
I
Penalty problems
Replies
3
Views
666
ZEE
ZEE
MFiregone
GTS Penalty System
Replies
2
Views
924
Sven Jurgens
Sven Jurgens
V
Getting annoyed with the penalty system
Replies
4
Views
984
Vipernut
V
CnPx
Ideas for improving the penalty system
Replies
21
Views
2K
NikNakTobasco
NikNakTobasco

Latest Posts

Back