Another Hands on. But these guys seem to know their GT.

[Devedander]

Have YOU ever seen a race where another racer LET a car that went off track back onto the course IN FRONT OF THEM?! Because I know I haven't. In real racing, I have seen bumps, bump drafts, door to door, paint exchanges. Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because I have seen it.

Actually I have. I am not talking about a yellow flag kind of thing, but I have seen plenty of cars go off track into the gravel and then work their way back on with traffic. It's not like someone 3 turns back just stands on the brakes to yield or something, but they do realize that guy is coming back on track and if they don't drive smart there will be a collision which will be WORSE for them than slowing or altering the line a bit.

Now watch this video around the 4 min mark to 4:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPM2g-UsCM&eurl=http://www.gtplanet.net/&feature=player_embedded

and YOU tell ME if you have ever seen any cars act that way during a pileup? Even more so have you ever seen someone do what that red car does at the end?

YOU tell ME if on a closed road course where you can't get off the track, if it's ok to just peg the sideways instead of going around or even coming to a dead stop?

That's immediate black flag there.

The only way one could do that would be to be asleep at the wheel or be trying to pick up the taco you just dropped on the floor...

INTELLIGENT drivers would rather come to a complete stop rather than have a collision. Blind, drive the line at all costs drivers just plow through you and if they hit something, they just give it more gas.

This is a huge flaw in GT becuase of exactly this. It's normal fair in racing for a guy to go off track and have to weasel his way back in to stand a chance of placing. If you just sit and let the pack go by, you stand very little chance of getting back in the race. If you are forced to do let the whole pack go by becuase the alternative is worse (just get hammered over and over) then it ruins the whole "racing" part of the game... you know what the game is about?

It is NOT intelligent for the other cars to just keep bashing you over and over as they pass instead of avoiding a collision. Again, everying from 4:00 to 4:20 in that video screams blind stupid AI.

 

[sumbrownkid]

^I won't mind playing bumper cars with the AI on La Sarthe. Who survives? Who knows...

 

[RedSuinit]

Actually I have. I am not talking about a yellow flag kind of thing, but I have seen plenty of cars go off track into the gravel and then work their way back on with traffic. It's not like someone 3 turns back just stands on the brakes to yield or something, but they do realize that guy is coming back on track and if they don't drive smart there will be a collision which will be WORSE for them than slowing or altering the line a bit.

Now watch this video around the 4 min mark to 4:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPM2g-UsCM&eurl=http://www.gtplanet.net/&feature=player_embedded

and YOU tell ME if you have ever seen any cars act that way during a pileup? Even more so have you ever seen someone do what that red car does at the end?

YOU tell ME if on a closed road course where you can't get off the track, if it's ok to just peg the sideways instead of going around or even coming to a dead stop?

That's immediate black flag there.

The only way one could do that would be to be asleep at the wheel or be trying to pick up the taco you just dropped on the floor...

INTELLIGENT drivers would rather come to a complete stop rather than have a collision. Blind, drive the line at all costs drivers just plow through you and if they hit something, they just give it more gas.

This is a huge flaw in GT becuase of exactly this. It's normal fair in racing for a guy to go off track and have to weasel his way back in to stand a chance of placing. If you just sit and let the pack go by, you stand very little chance of getting back in the race. If you are forced to do let the whole pack go by becuase the alternative is worse (just get hammered over and over) then it ruins the whole "racing" part of the game... you know what the game is about?

It is NOT intelligent for the other cars to just keep bashing you over and over as they pass instead of avoiding a collision. Again, everying from 4:00 to 4:20 in that video screams blind stupid AI.

Actually it screams ****** driver... With the exception of the red EVO. The Subaru comes around the last turn and attempts to take out the other Rally car, 350 Z hit the Rally car. Subaru backs up, 350 Z goes past, RX7, there is NOTHING in his way, then the Subaru gasses into him, and the car behind the RX-7 doesn't have time to do anything, then yes the red EVO does a blind AI move and crashes into both of them, I will say that...

 

[Devedander]

Actually it screams ****** driver... With the exception of the red EVO. The Subaru comes around the last turn and attempts to take out the other Rally car, 350 Z hit the Rally car. Subaru backs up, 350 Z goes past, RX7, there is NOTHING in his way, then the Subaru gasses into him, and the car behind the RX-7 doesn't have time to do anything, then yes the red EVO does a blind AI move and crashes into both of them, I will say that...

Ummm... that's not how I saw it..

Initial crash is indeed due to human racer, but then yellow car, after PITing the sub (which shouldn't have happened anyway... a PIT in that circumstance says the yellow car turned into the back end of the sub which it did not need to nor should have done - watching earlier in the video during the actual race you can see the human driver does not turn towards the wall causing his own PIT so it's the AI car instigating the PIT - again I venture this is not out of retribution since it makes the situatino worse for BOTH of them but rather the yellow car blindly trying to drive the line) then once the sub is sideways and stuck the yellow car keeps trying to drive through him making it impossible to get straigthened out.

Then as it's driving through it gets hit from behind by the silver car (this can be seen more clearly if you watch earlier when the in car view shows a second dramatic impact after the yellow car is already driving into him at a dead stop - which is plenty of space for the silver car to have slowed and avoided as the silver car was on the straight before the sub got sideways).

As the yellow car clears out you can see the silver car again driving through the sub (wheels are spinning under throttle while the cars are touching noses) this only servers to slow down any recovery and is not what a real driver would do at all).

The car behind the silver car then rear ends the silver car as it exits (in this situation that car should have slowed considerably as the sub might have pulled forward to try and turn back on course which would have caused an accident and at least slowed enough to not run into the back of the silver car - really best move would have been to swerve right and drive around the whole pileup, but that would involve giving up the line which the AI doesn't do despite the fact that at these speeds the line means nothing).

Then the blue car tbones the sub and of course the finally is the red car just blasting right through the whole pack.

The red car being the key because if you watch the line it drives, it is pretty much the exact line every other car drives unless it's involved in an accident at the time. This is indeed the best line at that section of the track and at high speeds and in the clear that's where you would want to be... however here rather than give the line up, the red car just blindly plows into an accident.

Then when you look back and watch the unatural and stupid manuevers by the other cars, you can see they are all blindly trying to get back on that line by muscling along. This screams "blind stupid AI driving the line at all costs".

Almost nothing in that said "intelligent" driving on it.

 

[Exorcet]

If someone goes off course, too bad for them, they need to wait it out. I'd prefer that the AI not come to a screeching halt just to let me back on. However, they should not plow you once you begin coming on the track.

For example, if you are way off in the dirt and a dense line of cars is driving by, they shouldn't stop for you at all. When they pass by and there is a gap in traffic, then you move on the course. If more cars come up after that, then they should take evasive action.

Likewise, if you crash on track, cars should avoid you.

That's pretty much how it is online (at least how I do it and how I expect it to be done) and how it is in most racing series.

 

[Devedander]

If someone goes off course, too bad for them, they need to wait it out. I'd prefer that the AI not come to a screeching halt just to let me back on. However, they should not plow you once you begin coming on the track.

For example, if you are way off in the dirt and a dense line of cars is driving by, they shouldn't stop for you at all. When they pass by and there is a gap in traffic, then you move on the course. If more cars come up after that, then they should take evasive action.

Likewise, if you crash on track, cars should avoid you.

That's pretty much how it is online (at least how I do it and how I expect it to be done) and how it is in most racing series.

Yes of course a pack of fast moving cars shouldn't do something stupid to let you back on track, but when it's a car or two reasonably far back, it's expected the off course driver will make an attempt to get back on course and the on track drivers should spot the potential danger of a driver who (for whatever) reason tries to get back on track at a bad time.

Generally anything is better than a crash. Even giving up a position to a stupid driver getting back on course is better as a crash will probably slow you BOTH down much more.

Basically watch that video, look how the AI reacts and see if you think it was intelligently driving or whether it was just blindly driving it's line at the expense of a decent racing experience.

 

[kikie]

Being aware of your opponent's position will be much more crucial in this game, so using the D-Pad to look around will become quite important, if you wish to remain on the track.

I prefer the PSEye to look around.

AFASK, it's a demo and everytime you download a demo, it always says;

This is just an example.




So isn't it possible that the final build (GT5 not GRID) will be better in some ereas?

AI, damage, physics tec... .

 

[reece22345]

the AI isn't intelligently being aggresive, it's being the stupid blind AI that it has been throughout GT's history and being taken out again and again after getting sideways is NOT what I would call intelligent or improved.

It sounds like exactly what we had before and just as dumb as ever.

But then again, if AI is supposed to simulate human actions and stuff....there are still some pretty idiotic people that behave just like the AI your are complaining about.

*Sensitive Footage*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ykMNm13SI

So yeah, most drivers would try and avoid car crashes like this, come to a stop, try and avoid etc. Some just can't, some don't for whatever reason.

Sure the AI can be refined but there is a point where you just have to drive against real people to experience the real thing.

Looking forward to it no matter what happens anyway.

 

[Devedander]

I prefer the PSEye to look around.

AFASK, it's a demo and everytime you download a demo, it always says;

This is just an example.




So isn't it possible that the final build (GT5 not GRID) will be better in some ereas?

AI, damage, physics tec... .

They always say not indicitave of final build, but when you play them, then play the final build, it's almost always actually the same. It's a COA thing most often. It's certainly possible GT5 will be better final, but I honestly don't recall the last time a demo came out that didn't feel pretty much exactly like the game sans maybe some extra FPS in the final.

 

[Devedander]

But then again, if AI is supposed to simulate human actions and stuff....there are still some pretty idiotic people that behave just like the AI your are complaining about.

*Sensitive Footage*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ykMNm13SI

So yeah, most drivers would try and avoid car crashes like this, come to a stop, try and avoid etc. Some just can't, some don't for whatever reason.

Sure the AI can be refined but there is a point where you just have to drive against real people to experience the real thing.

Looking forward to it no matter what happens anyway.

Sure their are people who might do anything, I mean the AI could do donuts on the starting line and you could say someone might do that... I think it's pretty fair to say the expectation when playing SP is that you will be up against decent and fair challenges, not online nooblets who think using you for a cushion at every corner is ok or that it's fun to pit you just becuase they can't win.

You can make an excuse for almost any bad programing, but in this case, when you look back at GT and see that the AI has had a similar problem since pretty much the beginning, it's pretty obvious it's just an unsolved issue, not some advanced programming to represent a rare real world occurance.

You are supposed to be racing against professional drivers who have passed their licensing tests and are trying to win races and prizes here...

BTW the crash in your video I believe was after a sharp, high speed blind turn on a very highspeed course. When it's something like lemans cars blowing down the road at 250mph, sure there is not much you can do to adjust sometimes, and that stock car video is one of those times where you are already pushing your car to the limits, making a major adjustment is understandbly impossible to pull off sometimes.

In the video the cars ALL acted stupidly in many ways, the red car smashing into the pile (not at drastically high speed and with plenty of time to slow and avoid) was just the icing on the cake.

Basically there are times when it's unavoidable and expected to pile up, the gt5 video shows a situation where that is not true though.

 

[Earth]

In the video the cars ALL acted stupidly in many ways, the red car smashing into the pile (not at drastically high speed and with plenty of time to slow and avoid) was just the icing on the cake.

Basically there are times when it's unavoidable and expected to pile up, the gt5 video shows a situation where that is not true though.

Any reason to expect that can't be fixed before launch or with a patch at some time? Your acting like this behavior from the AI is something new. GT has had AI like that since the beginning. I know your response, it should have been fixed by now. Well, it hasn't been. But the good part is that it's not a major flaw in the code or anything. It's something simple.

Let me know when GT has a real problem, like bad framerate or bad physics simulation.

 

[the_fatadder]

Any reason to expect that can't be fixed before launch or with a patch at some time? Your acting like this behavior from the AI is something new. GT has had AI like that since the beginning. I know your response, it should have been fixed by now. Well, it hasn't been. But the good part is that it's not a major flaw in the code or anything. It's something simple.

Let me know when GT has a real problem, like bad framerate or bad physics simulation.

Sorry to say I dont think I have ever played a game (on the PC or the PS) which has started off with **** AI and later been improved via a patch. Often I have had patches which have said "fixing xyz in the AI" but its barely a noticeable change.
For me (given that I'm not a huge online player) the AI is hugely important, every bit as much as the physics etc. And just as complicated for pd to fix.....

 

[Earth]

Sorry to say I dont think I have ever played a game (on the PC or the PS) which has started off with **** AI and later been improved via a patch. Often I have had patches which have said "fixing xyz in the AI" but its barely a noticeable change.
For me (given that I'm not a huge online player) the AI is hugely important, every bit as much as the physics etc. And just as complicated for pd to fix.....

rFactor's AI has been steadily improved with many patches along the way, so it can and has been done.

 

[Nomino]

sounds good, but they're wrong about damage since it will be more complex in the final game and dents/scratches are already visible

Wrong eh? Have you got a statement from anybody at PD or SONY confirming that the damage model shown was only "so many percent" of the model used in the final game? Ummmm, no, so you just keep on dreaming kid.

I love how some peopl get really defensive on behalf of developers. Sure, I'm hoping it's as good as most people are hoping to will be, but facts are facts - the franchise is getting old, and now it doesn't have the outright graphical flair that it used to have. GT5 has plenty of fierce competition.

 

[Slurm]

Yeah, honestly, to say that what we've seen is non-reflective of what we'll see in GT5 - "we will get something different to this, it will be better", is a bigger assumption than saying "what we see is what we will get." It is only a demo but it's all we have to go by. I think there's a good chance that there is more to the damage, but I also think it's fair game to critique what's been shown.

 

[Nomino]

"in terms of a sheer racing simulation, it's hard to find a product with more detail"

all that matters. 👍

Yep, all it takes is a positive review to make you happy. See, that's why it's pointless taking notice. If you read a good review, you agree and are happy because that's what you wanted to hear. If you read a bad review, you disagree and are not happy because that's now what you wanted to hear. So, you agree with the good and ignore the bad, despite the bad being just as relevant. Get a grip.

See, I read that and think it's actually quite a negative review. Nothing particularly glowing about it. AI to put off the mainstream... Damage model, as we all know, is crap... Interface not changed much from Prologue.... So it's GT with hi-res graphics and more cars on track. I've yet to see or hear anything that warrants the 6 years or so of development that has gone into this game. Seriously though, six year? I think not. These guys started developing GT5 properly when we first got GT5 Prologue, hence why we are mostly underwhelmed.

 

[the_fatadder]

rFactor's AI has been steadily improved with many patches along the way, so it can and has been done.

Never played rFactor, but would be interested to know if they were starting off from a good AI and building upon it. Or if it was a case of patching a poor AI into something good.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Never played rFactor, but would be interested to know if they were starting off from a good AI and building upon it. Or if it was a case of patching a poor AI into something good.

Another game is Live for Speed. It has non-existent AI. Literally, the cars would follow exactly a pre-set line regardless of what was on the track or where you were. It was patched so now the cars are aware of you and race more dynamically instead of a pre-set line.

 

[Lion-Face]

The AI can, and has been Hit and Miss for the past few GT's. But, most of the time the AI hit me, I was the one in the wrong, not the AI. Braking too early, weaving across the track, spun out etc. I think there are many times the AI is blamed for being stupid when it's the driver themselves not opening their eyes and realizing that the AI is behaving realistically and its the Human drivers silly actions on the track that is to blame. I used to be like that, I always thought GT had stupid AI that never put up a race, until I started to race with them properly and you begin to respect the AI in the game.

There are always going to be instances where you get silly AI accidents, I'm sure you could find instances in many Racing games where the AI will just sit behind your car parked on the track.