(Answered) Deep Forest Track Boundaries

[Dylan]

So this is a topic that has sparked a couple of arguments when I race online. Deep Forest as you all know is a very straight foward track. Grass on either side of the road, then either an armco barrier, rocks, or a flimsy guard rail next to a very steep drop. But there is one particular corner that stands out from the rest of the track. Turn 4.

After the hairpin turn 1, you climb a hill and make a quick left then right (2 & 3) Then turn 4 which is a quick left-hand corner, followed immediately after by a sharp right-hand corner. (5) What makes turn 4 different is the fact that there is concrete paving on the left hand side of the track instead of grass.

Turn 4 at Deep Forest.

So my question is; Is cutting across this paved section of track, counted as cutting a corner.

I stand behind the fact that it should be legal. Here's why. The ENTIRE (well, almost entire) track is lined with grass. EXCEPT this one. It could have been left as grass, or maybe the armco could be right up against the edge of the track. (like a street course) But instead, Polophony Digital decided it would be best to pave it with concrete. There is nothing stopping you from driving over it, and no signs on track telling you you can't. Plus, driving over it gives you a better entrance into the following corner.

Please, tell me your individual feelings about this corner, and whether or not it is still within the tracks boundaries.

 

[rosckolove]

Take a look at GTP's OLR rules. It states that 2 wheels must remain inside of the track boundaries at all times. 99 percent of the people/and race events on this website abide by those rules.

If you have 2 wheels on the tarmac. Your good. If all 4 wheels are past the rumble strips. Your illegally cutting the corner.

That's the answer you're going to get from the people here.

 

[Dolph Drago]

I consider that corner cutting, so a major no-no to me. What would the point of there even being a corner there then? Also, notice the rumble strip. In most leagues, you need to keep two wheels to the inside of it. That ain't gonna happen if you cut that thing completely.

On a side note, I see the second to last turn at Grand Valley in the same light. Keep at least two wheels on the pavement there.

 

[kilesa4568]

It's corner cutting. Plain and simple.

 

[TS050]

In my opinion, cutting the paved section is cutting the corner. As you've stated, going over the concrete leads to a better entry to the next corner, and that leads to competitive advantage...

 

[polysmut]

As well as the rumble strip, there's also a white line painted on the road.
It wouldn't be there is if* it wasn't the track limit.

So my question is; Is cutting across this paved section of track, counted as cutting a corner.

Yes, it's cutting the corner.

Edit:
*Typo' corrected.

 

[Furinkazen]

Depends on host. Technically it is legal judging by the normal ruling of "two wheels on track kerbs as track". But in this case a bit different due to how it sets you up for the corner.

 

[Ryk]

Wow - 10 people voted and 10 say it is bad to cheat. Maybe the world isn't a hive of filth and villainy after all.

 

[ALB123]

I can't believe that you're even asking this question. There is a white painted line on the tarmac. That denotes the border of the track. How do you not know this? It doesn't matter that the rest of the track has grass or freakin' rose bushes lining the edge of the track. The white lines are the boundaries.

 

[Gadge]

So this is a topic that has sparked a couple of arguments when I race online. Deep Forest as you all know is a very straight foward track. Grass on either side of the road, then either an armco barrier, rocks, or a flimsy guard rail next to a very steep drop. But there is one particular corner that stands out from the rest of the track. Turn 4.

After the hairpin turn 1, you climb a hill and make a quick left then right (2 & 3) Then turn 4 which is a quick left-hand corner, followed immediately after by a sharp right-hand corner. (5) What makes turn 4 different is the fact that there is concrete paving on the left hand side of the track instead of grass.
View attachment 446853
Turn 4 at Deep Forest.

So my question is; Is cutting across this paved section of track, counted as cutting a corner.

I stand behind the fact that it should be legal. Here's why. The ENTIRE (well, almost entire) track is lined with grass. EXCEPT this one. It could have been left as grass, or maybe the armco could be right up against the edge of the track. (like a street course) But instead, Polophony Digital decided it would be best to pave it with concrete. There is nothing stopping you from driving over it, and no signs on track telling you you can't. Plus, driving over it gives you a better entrance into the following corner.

Please, tell me your individual feelings about this corner, and whether or not it is still within the tracks boundaries.

From that picture it's clean

 

[Dylan]

Thank you everyone for leaving constructive comments!

Take a look at GTP's OLR rules.

I completely forgot about those. (Weird considering I have them printed out in a little pamphlet)

 

[Furinkazen]

On closer look, it is clean. Barely. Again depends if you judge kerbs as track (I do).

 

[miata13B]

I believe the whole reason why that concrete was added was for run off or braking. If you played any of the older renditions of this track you would notice this corner in most of them is filled with grass, not pavement.

I think it was put there so you would not go out of control here.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Like everyone else has said, the white lines denote the track boundries, nothing else. That picture is on the limit of being a legal corner. The same applies for the paved run off area on that corner exit which is inside the proceeding tunnel.

Using the run off area in both of these places gains a significant time advantage. Cutting turn 4 with penalties turned on gives you a short cut penalty too, and rightly so,

 

[CraigHyphenO]

There's two wheels on, but not beyond the white line in that picture. It is clean. However cutting that corner should not be allowed. The white lines define the circuit boundaries in all cases, and that includes the exit of corners too.

 

[kilesa4568]

I've just realized that I constantly short cut on Trial Mountain if the white line is the set track boundary.

The banked left turn into the long tunnel and the left at the end of the straight with the striped lines on the inside and also the last little straight where I hug the wall for the chicane onto the start/finish straight.

I can't remember any events where those areas were out of bounds and to be honest, the two banked turns are probably my favourite corners on any of the tracks in the game.

I noticed B-Spec doesn't use those parts of the corners but they do drift outside the line on the little straight at the end.

Does anyone else use those areas of the corners or should I slap my wrist and try and break a decade old bad habit?

 

[Famine]

From that picture it's clean

On closer look, it is clean. Barely. Again depends if you judge kerbs as track (I do).

Like everyone else has said, the white lines denote the track boundries, nothing else. That picture is on the limit of being a legal corner.

There's two wheels on, but not beyond the white line in that picture. It is clean.

Interesting that four British members say that.

Here's what the MSA says about track limits in the 2015 Blue Book:

14.4.2. Drivers must use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. For the avoidance of doubt:
(a) The white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track.
(b) A driver will be judged to have left the track if any wheel of the car either goes beyond the outer edge of any kerb or goes beyond the white line where there is no kerb.

The car in the image has exceeded track limits.

 

[Furinkazen]

Interesting that four British members say that.

Here's what the MSA says about track limits in the 2015 Blue Book:The car in the image has exceeded track limits.

Yes after they got adjusted in 2014.

Overall though it race hosts discretion. And with that corner, it is easy to put more car over the kerb for a better exit, quite a unique case.

 

[Dylan]

I've just realized that I constantly short cut on Trial Mountain if the white line is the set track boundary.

The banked left turn into the long tunnel and the left at the end of the straight with the striped lines on the inside and also the last little straight where I hug the wall for the chicane onto the start/finish straight.

I can't remember any events where those areas were out of bounds and to be honest, the two banked turns are probably my favourite corners on any of the tracks in the game.

I noticed B-Spec doesn't use those parts of the corners but they do drift outside the line on the little straight at the end.

Does anyone else use those areas of the corners or should I slap my wrist and try and break a decade old bad habit?

This should be worthy of it's own thread.

 

[Famine]

Yes after they got adjusted in 2014.

Yep. Which would be the current rules.

 

[eran0004]

The white line is the egde of the track. If all wheels are outside of the line the car has left the track.

So it doesn't matter if you go on the concrete or not. The only thing that's interesting is if any of the wheels are inside of the white line.

That's the definition I go by at least. Anyone who is organizing a race can always chose to use other rules.

 

[Dylan]

Here's what the MSA says about track limits in the 2015 Blue Book

Thanks for mentioning this! Now I something I can read on my bus ride to school!

 

[Ryk]

I always drive try to drive with all wheels inside the white lines. I used to drive tracks with Tyres sunk into concrete lining the inside of corners to prevent cheaters - but they (The corner marking concrete tyres) caused more than a few car mashing accidents if a driver either chose to cheat or lost control.

Safety makes kerbs flatter and smoother... the perfect place for race drivers to aim his car at.

So long as all drivers run to the same limits all is good, no matter how cheaty it looks.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Interesting that four British members say that.

Well you could look at it from an F1 rules point of view - as long as you have 1mm of one wheel inside the white line, it's fine. If you exceed the white line by 5cm, we will punish you. However, at the next circuit, feel free to run exceed the white lines by 2ft, we don't feel like enforcing the rules next time.

 

[Ledbetter]

Interesting that four British members say that.

Here's what the MSA says about track limits in the 2015 Blue Book:The car in the image has exceeded track limits.

Are all of us, in whatever country and perhaps racing at fictitious tracks, bound by MSA rules? I like the two wheels in rule for Gran Turismo, and abide by it. The AI isn't so picky, it seems, so if I'm racing AI opponents, I abide by their rules or custom. I wouldn't expect or require UK drivers to abide by MSA Rules in international online Gran Turismo races.

On-line, for me it's always two wheels inside the white line, as the stewards strictly enforced at the F1 Silverstone race qualifying this year. I don't deviate from this for UK tracks. Should I?

 

[Famine]

Are all of us, in whatever country and perhaps racing at fictitious tracks, bound by MSA rules?

No, though this has precious little to do with what I said.

I like the two wheels in rule for Gran Turismo, and abide by it.

That's your prerogative. The game itself, when enforcing track limits, has no such rule.

The AI isn't so picky, it seems, so if I'm racing AI opponents, I abide by their rules or custom.

The AI never face penalties of any kind, even for the same acts you would be penalised for.

I wouldn't expect or require UK drivers to abide by MSA Rules in international online Gran Turismo races.

Nor would I. Again though, this has precious little to do with what I said.

On-line, for me it's always two wheels inside the white line, as the stewards strictly enforced at the F1 Silverstone race qualifying this year.

F1 has its own rules about track limits. They are different and they're certainly not two wheels anything...

20.2
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

Though the effectiveness of the enforcement of this rule leaves very much to be desired as note in the post prior to yours.

I don't deviate from this for UK tracks. Should I?

That's entirely your call.

Under F1's rules, the car pictured would not be classed as off track - though it isn't an F1 car. Under the MSA's rules, the car pictured would be classed as off track - though it's a fictional track and in a racing game, not under the MSA's jurisdiction.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Take a look at GTP's OLR rules. It states that 2 wheels must remain inside of the track boundaries at all times.

I swear that was in the OLR thread before but I just glanced over it and cannot find it anymore. It was edited on the 27th of August this year so I wonder if it was removed.

 

[Spirit]

I swear that was in the OLR thread before but I just glanced over it and cannot find it anymore. It was edited on the 27th of August this year so I wonder if it was removed.

1.J
"Cutting the chicanes or "shorting" the track at any point is strictly prohibited on all parts of the track, including the asphalt-areas in behind out-of track-lines. Track specific boundaries will be clarified in the Race Specifics section of any given event."

Basically it says that it's up to the event's promoter. For most, if not all of the GTPlanet Weekly Racing Series events, it states in the Race Specifics section that 2 wheels must be within the white lines, and when there are painted rumble strips, the white line extends to the outer edge of said strips.

 

[CraigHyphenO]

Different series run with different rules. I remember watching the 24 Hours of Paul Ricard earlier this year and the stewards basically allowed everybody to run wide on the exit of one of the corners, white lines or not.

 

[Dylan]

Different series run with different rules. I remember watching the 24 Hours of Paul Ricard earlier this year and the stewards basically allowed everybody to run wide on the exit of one of the corners, white lines or not.

Was that the one where aston martin were closing in on the nissan in the closing laps, then made a mistake and lost the race?