Anti-Roll bars/sway bars , how do they work in GT5?

[Sail IC]

Ok Highlander, I'm going to give your method a shot on the Lexus Petronas. Two questions.

1, What do you do with damper compression. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see it in your post.

2, We all know ridehight has a major impact on car handling. On the Petronas, the max ridehight is 13/8 and I think the min has the same delta. Would you run lets say 0/0 or maintain the 5 delta, ie like 3/-2. It understeer stock, so in some way it would be good to run the nose a bit higher than rear.

Kind of thinking of it, by your definition, I think I only had one balanced car. The only car I'll been able run with unchanged tune on different tires is a GT500 NSX. All my other tunes which I think has been fast on soft have had massive oversteer on hard tires.

Will report back.

 

[praiano63]

Ok Highlander, I'm going to give your method a shot on the Lexus Petronas. Two questions.

1, What do you do with damper compression. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see it in your post.

2, We all know ridehight has a major impact on car handling. On the Petronas, the max ridehight is 13/8 and I think the min has the same delta. Would you run lets say 0/0 or maintain the 5 delta, ie like 3/-2.

Kind of thinking of it, by your definition, I think I only had one balanced car. The only car I'll been able run with unchanged tune on different tires is a GT500 NSX. All my other tunes which I think has been fast on soft have had massive oversteer on hard tires.

Will report back.

This is the way he do for dampers. Page 2. I'm following this too...haha. I would like to find a way to make a good base before fine tuning and this seems good ,need to test it.
I'm tired to have good tunes and don't know why or bad tunes and don't know why too. Must have some logic without too much math.


These are numerical values, but it's the % of 'strength' which is now important.

The front are over 3/4's strength, but not maximum, the rears are just over half. So match your damper extension to this (front 8 and rear 6), then reverse your roll bars to this (front approx 1/4 = 2 and rear just under 1/2 = 3).

 

[Sail IC]

This is the way he do for dampers. Page 2. I'm following this too...haha. I would like to find a way to make a good base before fine tuning and this seems good ,need to test it.
I'm tired to have good tunes and don't know why or bad tunes and don't know why too. Must have some logic without too much math.


These are numerical values, but it's the % of 'strength' which is now important.

The front are over 3/4's strength, but not maximum, the rears are just over half. So match your damper extension to this (front 8 and rear 6), then reverse your roll bars to this (front approx 1/4 = 2 and rear just under 1/2 = 3).

Yes, but that's the damper extension. What about the compression. Same ?

 

[praiano63]

Yes, but that's the damper extension. What about the compression. Same ?

i think he's speaking about compression ,must be a little mistake, extension is just to control weight transfer and don't have to see with weight repartition but fine tune depending of the car, i think..???

 

[Sail IC]

i think he's speaking about compression ,must be a little mistake, extension is just to control weight transfer and don't have to see with weight repartition but fine tune depending of the car, i think..???

Makes sense to me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Using the same method as Highlandor you can skip a lot of the fancy math for the spring settings. For example

Weight dist 60/40
Front Spring Min or Max doesn't matter

Open the front spring adjustment scale and you'll notice the scale has hash marks corresponding to 1-9 with 0 and 10 being the extreme ends of the scale. Smaller hash marks in between. Move the pointer over above the 6th hash mark, and this is the correct starting spring rate for tuning.

At the rear you would do the same except move to the 4th hash mark. For other values like 52/48 you can still adjust by eye but you may be off a point or two, which shouldn't make much difference. They aren't final values anyway, just a starting point for a tune.

Gets you to the same place as Highlandor, without having to do any math and allows you to begin tuning in seconds.

 

[CSLACR]

Using the same method as Highlandor you can skip a lot of the fancy math for the spring settings. For example

Weight dist 60/40
Front Spring Min or Max doesn't matter

Open the front spring adjustment scale and you'll notice the scale has hash marks corresponding to 1-9 with 0 and 10 being the extreme ends of the scale. Smaller hash marks in between. Move the pointer over above the 6th hash mark, and this is the correct starting spring rate for tuning.

At the rear you would do the same except move to the 4th hash mark. For other values like 52/48 you can still adjust by eye but you may be off a point or two, which shouldn't make much difference. They aren't final values anyway, just a starting point for a tune.

Gets you to the same place as Highlandor, without having to do any math and allows you to begin tuning in seconds.

It would make more sense to numerically add them together like this:
6.0 / 4.0, or 6.6 / 4.4, or 12.0 / 8.0, or 13.2 / 8.8, All 60/40.

I think it works on some cars, and not others. The cars it will work well on are random, so it's pretty much a hit or miss, I've tried this theory before, basically, it can give the appearance of working great sometimes, and other times it will be an epic failure, depends on the car.
Certainly nothing solid either way.

 

[Corse]

It realy seems to make sense what your saying.
The LSD tuning of my JGTC race cars for Nordschleife is still lacking a good fine tune.
The main problem is, i'm just an average driver
On nearly all of these cars I have low numbers in the initial torque and accelaration settings. This is just based on bad experiences I've made every time I tried to increase them.
It's not that the car isn't feeling better when runing thru the corners - I believe that could lower my lap times. It's every time I'm getting on one of those cobbles extending the corners. With low initial and accel. settings it is now problem. But increasing the values and you get on them, the car suddenly turns often resulting in 360's. If this happens a lot of time is lost...
For sure, someone can say, avoid these cobbles. But it turnes out, that in racing situation when you need some extra pace to get closer, or you're within the draft of someone, I'm really unable to avoid it at all.
So what happens when I'm getting on these cobbles with high accel. settings: The outer wheels get suddenly either more power or grip then the ones near to the corner axis and the car turns rapidly more into the corner than it should. It's going so fast, that I don't know what is happen exactly. It doesn't happen all the time, so I believe it is based on locking/opening of the LSD.
But maybe it is, like you name it, just another working against situation of the whole setup.

 

[CSLACR]

It realy seems to make sense what your saying.
The LSD tuning of my JGTC race cars for Nordschleife is still lacking a good fine tune.
The main problem is, i'm just an average driver
On nearly all of these cars I have low numbers in the initial torque and accelaration settings. This is just based on bad experiences I've made every time I tried to increase them.
It's not that the car isn't feeling better when runing thru the corners - I believe that could lower my lap times. It's every time I'm getting on one of those cobbles extending the corners. With low initial and accel. settings it is now problem. But increasing the values and you get on them, the car suddenly turns often resulting in 360's. If this happens a lot of time is lost...
For sure, someone can say, avoid these cobbles. But it turnes out, that in racing situation when you need some extra pace to get closer, or you're within the draft of someone, I'm really unable to avoid it at all.
So what happens when I'm getting on these cobbles with high accel. settings: The outer wheels get suddenly either more power or grip then the ones near to the corner axis and the car turns rapidly more into the corner than it should. It's going so fast, that I don't know what is happen exactly. It doesn't happen all the time, so I believe it is based on locking/opening of the LSD.
But maybe it is, like you name it, just another working against situation of the whole setup.

Higher settings on the lsd most certainly make the car easier to spin, one of the reasons I run lower settings, higher settings can also hinder cornering ability as well.
When tuning I start with my "default" lsd, which is 5-10 for initial, 20 accel and 5 decel, then I set up the suspension, and after I'm finished with the suspension, I'll consider if need be, some lsd changes.

 

[nomis3613]

After spending some more time with Highlandor's method (thanks for all your help, H!), I have seen that dampers and anti-roll bars work as they should IRL. The two caveats to this are you need to use the "weight distribution method" to get your initial settings and only adjust settings 1-2 clicks at a time.

However for other methods of tuning, strange things often happen (such as stiffer front springs improving turn-in).

Due to this difference in cause/effect, I suspect that the results from SAIL IC's test will be all over the place, but I'm still keen to see the results because we should learn something either way.

 

[Highlandor]

Ok Highlander, I'm going to give your method a shot on the Lexus Petronas.

Cool, thanks - I'll send you PM

Using the same method as Highlandor you can skip a lot of the fancy math for the spring settings.

Gets you to the same place as Highlandor, without having to do any math and allows you to begin tuning in seconds.

What's "fancy" about working out a BASIC %?? Absolutely nothing...

No it won't. Reason being that you can look at the weight distribution and see a %, then "guestimate" this on the scale and end up maybe 10-20% out at times, therefore meanig you 'think' you have balance when you haven't.

Especially if you are playing around with proportional increases i.e. 10% or 20% or even the same in decreases for naturally stiff cars on a bumpy track.

It takes me a few seconds to work out the 100% correct spring rates, if anyone can't be bothered with this then they might as well not bother tuning at all. There's no difference between guestimating spring proportions and all other parts of the setup, if you're going to guestimate one thing, then hey - go the whole hog because chances are by guestimating the most important bit you'll be shooting yourself in the foot for the rest of the setup too.

Work the spring rates out exactly, that way you are 100% sure you have done it right, and won't ever have the need to second guess or doubt yourself when fine tuning the rest of the setup, which'll result in you going round in circles, banging your head against a wall , constantly resetting and starting again or ending up with a unbalanced setup you would have had by guestimating the srping rates without even looking at the weight distribution.

As the saying goes - "do it right, first time"...

Oh yeah, I don't appreciate you diluting my tuning method or trying to steal my theory and rebadge it as your own by telling people they can use those markers on the spring values for a quick fix to a balanced setup.

I'm fully aware of those markers and they weren't mentioned for a reason - they're too inaccurate and if you start using them and relying on them, in a short space of time you'll think you have it sussed, but you won't and just end up going round in circles, again, and what's more, no doubt telling everyone lies about how this "doesn't work".

When (again), it "doesn't work" because you are not doing it properly, and (again) funnily enough, the guys who are doing it properly are the ones who are getting the consistent results.

Taking short cuts in life will get you no-where.. especially with GT5 setups and especially with this way of setting cars up.

It would make more sense to numerically add them together like this:
6.0 / 4.0, or 6.6 / 4.4, or 12.0 / 8.0, or 13.2 / 8.8, All 60/40.

Certainly nothing solid either way.

No it won't - it has to be proportional.

The fact you don't understand this means you are unable to conclude nothing, they guys who are doing the %'s correctly and matching the springs, damper and roll bars are the ones who are getting consistent results - as I've said all along.

This is not a coincidence.

The guys who are doing this the right way understand and are getting consistency in their results for all their cars, the guys doing it the wrong way are not understanding and not getting consistency - you telling me that's a coincidence.

Not a chance.

I've said this before, this setup was worked on for weeks, tested with all the different variables we could think of and with different people.

Now I've got others who fundamentally don't understand the procedure / formula telling me they know a better way of doing it...???

(...yawn....sigh...roll eyes.......)

Gimme a break...

Funny how other GT websites 'clocked' onto this straight away - why oh why is it taking so much effort and explanation to get through to people on GTP....????????????????



I guess that's a coincidence too....eh..??

 

[Johnnypenso]

Cool, thanks - I'll send you PM



What's "fancy" about working out a BASIC %?? Absolutely nothing...

No it won't. Reason being that you can look at the weight distribution and see a %, then "guestimate" this on the scale and end up maybe 10-20% out at times, therefore meanig you 'think' you have balance when you haven't.

Especially if you are playing around with proportional increases i.e. 10% or 20% or even the same in decreases for naturally stiff cars on a bumpy track.

It takes me a few seconds to work out the 100% correct spring rates, if anyone can't be bothered with this then they might as well not bother tuning at all. There's no difference between guestimating spring proportions and all other parts of the setup, if you're going to guestimate one thing, then hey - go the whole hog because chances are by guestimating the most important bit you'll be shooting yourself in the foot for the rest of the setup too.

Work the spring rates out exactly, that way you are 100% sure you have done it right, and won't ever have the need to second guess or doubt yourself when fine tuning the rest of the setup, which'll result in you going round in circles, banging your head against a wall , constantly resetting and starting again or ending up with a unbalanced setup you would have had by guestimating the srping rates without even looking at the weight distribution.

As the saying goes - "do it right, first time"...

Oh yeah, I don't appreciate you diluting my tuning method or trying to steal my theory and rebadge it as your own by telling people they can use those markers on the spring values for a quick fix to a balanced setup.

I'm fully aware of those markers and they weren't mentioned for a reason - they're too inaccurate and if you start using them and relying on them, in a short space of time you'll think you have it sussed, but you won't and just end up going round in circles, again, and what's more, no doubt telling everyone lies about how this "doesn't work".

When (again), it "doesn't work" because you are not doing it properly, and (again) funnily enough, the guys who are doing it properly are the ones who are getting the consistent results.

Taking short cuts in life will get you no-where.. especially with GT5 setups and especially with this way of setting cars up.



No it won't - it has to be proportional.

The fact you don't understand this means you are unable to conclude nothing, they guys who are doing the %'s correctly and matching the springs, damper and roll bars are the ones who are getting consistent results - as I've said all along.

This is not a coincidence.

The guys who are doing this the right way understand and are getting consistency in their results for all their cars, the guys doing it the wrong way are not understanding and not getting consistency - you telling me that's a coincidence.

Not a chance.

I've said this before, this setup was worked on for weeks, tested with all the different variables we could think of and with different people.

Now I've got others who fundamentally don't understand the procedure / formula telling me they know a better way of doing it...???

(...yawn....sigh...roll eyes.......)

Gimme a break...

Funny how other GT websites 'clocked' onto this straight away - why oh why is it taking so much effort and explanation to get through to people on GTP....????????????????



I guess that's a coincidence too....eh..??

LOL...the markers are completely accurate. I've tried it your way and just by using the scale, and double checking against the math, I've never been off more than .1. Unless you're working off an old 12" analog tv, you'd have to be completely blind to be off by 10 or 20%. Maybe it helps I've got a good tv and it's easy for me to see, not sure. And how accurate do you have to be when the dampers can only be increased by 10% at a time? A .1 difference in spring rates is less than 1% variance on every car in the game as far as I know, so it won't make any difference at all.

I believe it's also true that when you do weight reduction, the spring values don't change, min/max. Using your method the car would end up with the same spring rates regardless of it's weight. So how can it be true that 1250 kg car can have the same spring rates as the same car with 1000 kgs of weight? Dropping 550lbs would definitly have an effect on the spring rates and that is not taken into account in your method and it is therefore flawed to begin with.

I've tried using your method as a base tuning device on several cars now, all online, and it works as a good starting point for some, and not for others. I'm not going to get into the details because you'll just nitpick them to death but suffice to say, any tuning calculation is just a starting point for any car, that just about every car needs a lot of fine tuning to get the most out of and often you end up a long way from the so called "base tune". So far in fact, it's often a real stretch to call it a "base tune"

 

[Highlandor]

Ok Highlander, I'm going to give your method a shot on the Lexus Petronas. All my other tunes which I think has been fast on soft have had massive oversteer on hard tires.

Will report back.

Ok Sail - had a go with this car this afternoon...

I had a brand new 0.0 mile Petronas Lexus, stock engine and aero running racing HARD tyres.

My stats for the car were:

465bhp
1100kgs
585pp

My friend was running the same car, but with max aero and full engine tuning, turbo an n/a - he was on racing HARDs also.

We tested at Trial Mountain and did a couple of 10 lap races to see what the cars were like.

We were both running weight distribution setups for the springs, dampers and roll bars. He chose stock springs, I had mine 10% stiffer.

I use a DS3 pad with maximum steering sensitivity (7).

Here's the setup I was using:

Aero (default)
Fr = 30
RR = 55

465bhp (default)

1100kgs

Racing HARD tyres

Gears
1st = 3.030
2nd = 2.083
3rd = 1.565
4th = 1.230
5th = 1.005
6th = 0.846
final Gear = 4.458
max speed = 205

Do max speed first, then adjust individual gears, then reduce final drive.

(actual max speed top of screen) 170mph

LSD
Initial = 20
Acc Sens = 8
Brak sens = 8

Ride height
Fr= -27
Rr = -27

Springs (@ 10% extra stiffness)

Fr = 16.4
Rr = 16.7

Dampers
Ext = 6 / 6
Comp = 5 / 5

Roll bars
2 / 2

Camber
Fr = 2.0
Rr = 1.5

Toe
Fr = -0.10
Rr = -0.02

Brakes
Fr = 8
Rr= 6

After one practice race, I adjusted my initial setup to the above, before this I had the ride height at -27 / -32, but there was a bit too much oversteer, changing ride height helped this alot. I had the brakes set differently too, but the tyres weren't heating up together, the fronts were colder than the rears, so I changed the brakes to the above.

The race.

It took 2 laps for tyres to become fully operational, but the car wasn't too bad on cold tyres, it gripped at the front and rear well. Between lap 3 and 7 I did very consistent laps, all within 1 second of each other. By lap 7 the first signs of tyre wear appeared and a little oversteer happened coming out of 2nd and 3rd gear corners. By the last 2 laps the tyre wear was starting to have an affect and the oversteer became more prominant, I ended up with about 50-60% tyres left at the end of the race.

First 2 laps were around 1:26, laps 3-7 were 1:24/5, laps 7-8 1:25/6 and 9-10 were 1:26/7.

2 wheels kept on track at all times, no spins, crashes, short cuts or offs.

I don't know what equiptment you're using, or what sensitivity you're running it at, but there;'s plenty of flexibility in the above setup to tweak to your driing style - whether you want the car more planted or loose, or whether you want more front end or not.

Either way, this can be tweaked to your satisfaction without changing the basic formula or procedure or spring / weight distribution relationship.

Changing the roll bars = or - 1 front, rear, or both will easily change the handling of the car to gie you what you want. There's plenty of scope within the camber, toe and ride height too to either make the car more stable or loose.

It's impossible to give someone a working setup that'll suit them 'out of the box' without knowing their driving style, skill level or equiptment settings.

Let me what you like and don't like about the car, what is it doing that you want, and what is it doing you don't want, I'll tell you how to 'tweak' it to your needs.

Remember, I have my steering sensitivity set to MAXIMUM, if this car won't turn as much as you like it's no problem, that's easily corrected. I tend to be aggressive with the throttle and brake, so guys who feather the throttle and trail brake will probably experience difference tyre temperatures, but that's understandable and easily fixed too.

 

[CarCzar]

Oh no. The backwards conspirators are back. I still don't buy it. PD spent much of its development time on the driving engine. I just don't believe that they could have "accidentely" programmed settings backward. I don't experience the backward feel that people are describing. So either I am the ultimate tuner (which I doubt) or there is something else in the backward cospiracy tunes that is over powering the effect of the front settings.

What car are you testing with and what are your other settings... expecially LSD settings?

There is a method to our madness Motor

 

[Johnnypenso]

IMO the Lexus GT500 cars are some of the easiest to tune in the game. They are almost completely neutral with perfect weight balance and gobs of downforce. It's not really a representative sample. Before I had any idea what I was doing tuning, I could tune this car because even major mistakes in setup don't seem to matter.

 

[Highlandor]

IMO the Lexus GT500 cars are some of the easiest to tune in the game. They are almost completely neutral with perfect weight balance and gobs of downforce. It's not really a representative sample. Before I had any idea what I was doing tuning, I could tune this car because even major mistakes in setup don't seem to matter.

So what..??

It was Sail who wanted the tune and it was him I was talking to, not you.

The example I originally gave was a front engined 4WD car with an awful natural weight distribution... Alot of people tend to find 4WD cars hard to setup for online racing and the fact it had a terrible weight distribution made it a great example. Out of the 1000+ cars in the game, how many have a 40-60 split or worse, not many...

What car did I use when Nomis3613 came into my lobby to 'see' this theory, a 530pp Lotus Evora on sports soft tyres with no driving aids.

So my first example car was a 4WD front engine car with FR/RR of 60/40 and my second was a mid engine RWD car with a FR/RR of 40/60, with high power and low grip tyres.

I'm really 'taking the easy route' aren't I...???

Get your facts straight....

LET'S SEE YOUR ONLINE TUNE FOR A 530PP LOTUS EVORA - GIVE IT TO NOMIS3613 AND LET HIM DECIDE WHICH ONE IS BETTER.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.....

 

[Johnnypenso]

Dude you really need to chill...lol...I think you're going to pop a blood vessel or have a heart attack...lol. I'm not the one claiming to have the one and only, be all and end all, tuning theory, that's you. And since you're posting on a public forum, not in a private message, then anything you say is subject to feedback from anyone here, including me of course.

I think my input and the input of those believe there is no universal tuning theory is quite valid.

 

[Highlandor]

Dude you really need to chill...lol...I think you're going to pop a blood vessel or have a heart attack...lol. I'm not the one claiming to have the one and only, be all and end all, tuning theory, that's you. And since you're posting on a public forum, not in a private message, then anything you say is subject to feedback from anyone here, including me of course.

I think my input and the input of those believe there is no universal tuning theory is quite valid.

Since when have I said it's the b all and end all.. All I said was that it was a tuning theory, that's it..

I never said it was the 'best', all I said was it's a formula / procedure that has worked on every car it's been tested on so far, and the people who understand it have found that it has improved the performance of their cars in race situations.

Damn right I'm gonna blow a blood vessel - as mentioned before, other guys and other forums, as soon as they read this they were very interested. As soon as they tested it and saw the results, they now swear by it.

So, I mention it on GTP and get greeted with ridicule, get mocked and in affect laughed at by some guys who show no evidence themselves of understanding setups generally, let alone this particular theory.

I give an open invite to everyone to come to my lobby to try it, only one guy accepted, he saw this working for himself and now agrees, yet all the disbelievers are still telling me it doesn't work when I've got 10 times more guys from other forums saying it does...and what's more, it works on every car they've tested so far.

Most people would be blowing a blood vessel in this situation.

Just come to my lobby, have a Audi HPA TT and Evora @ 530pp ready and I'll prove it to you.

I won't shout, scream, swear, have a go, start argueing at you, I'll just explain it from the start in the same way I did with the other guys and you can see, and feel, for yourself.

If you don't, stop saying it doesn't work - BECAUSE IT DOES and I can prove it, because I have proved it, but you 'disblievers' won't put up and come and see for yourself. Like I said before, the people who don't believe are the ones who don't understand, those who do understand do believe.

I've given 'references' for guys who are not affiliated to me and have no allegience to me who can see this works - did you contact any of them???

Why should I put up with guys telling me something doesn't work when I know it does, others know it does, and I've posted as much info which either hints or proves that it does, or info for you to find out yourself or speak to others who can verify this.

But I'm still getting people like you who are telling me it doesn't...

Blow a blood vessel - I'm gonna spontaniously combust in a minute.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Right so Highlandor... I did a bit of a test with your basic theory on my RX-7.

Didn't stiffen it any (it's already slightly stiffer than my normal for the 7) but anyway after some additional tweaking to toe, damper extension, and alignment settings it's gotten fairly close to where I'd like it to be (though a bit odd feeling really, not exactly the behavior I'm used to), but one very odd thing I noticed is that my LSD seems to have magic'd itself into behaving stronger.

 

[nomis3613]

GIVE IT TO NOMIS3613 AND LET HIM DECIDE WHICH ONE IS BETTER

Happy to compare tunes if people want...but...I'm not a very good driver (shhhhh!) so you could do much better with someone else. Besides I don't think a 'tuner battle' will resolve anything. Each person has their own method, if that works for them, then that's great.

Highlandor there's no point busting a blood vessel if people try your method and don't like it, that's their opinion. Perhaps the next GT Planet tuning challenge will be your chance to shine?
(and having heard you on voice chat, I know you're actually funny and chilled IRL. But just be aware that your posting style often riles people cos the interwebs doesn't do irony or playful sarcasm well. Especially SHOUTING in posts, it just gets people annoyed so it does more harm than good. Sorry for the lecture, just trying to help you avoid cr*p on GTP)

I don't think Johnnypenso is necessarily saying your method sucks, he was just suggesting
1) that the Lexus wasn't the best proof for any method (yes, you have also used it on many other cars, including some very difficult ones to tune) EDIT: and for the record, I think even a balanced car can be used to demonstrate a tuning method, since you can still show how settings work to change the grip balance
2) a shortcut method (of course it would unfair of someone to criticise your method if they'd done this instead of following your method properly), I don't think there was any intention to undermine your theory.
We're all just looking for the best way to tune our cars... a quest that will never end...

Hey RJ, are you tuning for online or offline? Having recently tried my hand at online tuning, I've discovered that it's like playing a different game! (perhaps us tuners should be more specific about whether a tune is for online or offline)

 

[Johnnypenso]

I give an open invite to everyone to come to my lobby to try it, only one guy accepted, he saw this working for himself and now agrees, yet all the disbelievers are still telling me it doesn't work when I've got 10 times more guys from other forums saying it does...and what's more, it works on every car they've tested so far.

Most people would be blowing a blood vessel in this situation.

Why should I put up with guys telling me something doesn't work when I know it does, others know it does, and I've posted as much info which either hints or proves that it does, or info for you to find out yourself or speak to others who can verify this.

But I'm still getting people like you who are telling me it doesn't...

Blow a blood vessel - I'm gonna spontaniously combust in a minute.

Dude seriously, take a chill pill. It's just a video game man, it's not real life. Step away from the PS3. If you want people to subscribe to your theories and you're so convinced then get into a tuning competition and prove it on the track. You aren't going to "prove" anything typing words into these posts. Michael Schumacher didn't become World Champ by talking about it, he proved it on the track.

I never said your "theory" didn't work, I said it's a good starting point for tuning a car but it's nowhere near the final product for at least half of the cars I tested it on. No theory will work for every car. Try taking a Suzuki Cappuccino RM out to Autumn Ring Mini with your theory and see how it works for ya. I tried it...my final settings are nowhere close to what your theory recommends.

I don't think Johnnypenso is necessarily saying your method sucks, he was just suggesting
1) that the Lexus wasn't the best proof for any method (yes, you have also used it on many other cars, including some very difficult ones to tune) EDIT: and for the record, I think even a balanced car can be used to demonstrate a tuning method, since you can still show how settings work to change the grip balance
2) a shortcut method (of course it would unfair of someone to criticise your method if they'd done this instead of following your method properly), I don't think there was any intention to undermine your theory.
We're all just looking for the best way to tune our cars... a quest that will never end...

Exactly...

 

[Sail IC]

Thanks Highlander for the tune. As it turns, my next championship race is at Trail Mauntain so that you tested there is very fortunate.

In this league, the regulations are 615PP and soft tires, so quite a bit more power than you tested at. Hopefully it will not make a big difference even if my own tunes for soft doesn't work very well on hard tires (only tested a very few times).

I already done two races with the Lexus Petronas, and I don't find it such an easy car to tune. It does have sizable understeer stock and excess front tirewear. When tuned away, the car is not such a great car. Below as comparison the tunes I used when racing Laguna and Rome. The Laguna was fast but it was difficult to drive consistantly over a long race. The Rome tune was better, and in practice I set the fastest time of all drivers/cars, and it had very even front/rear tirewear.

All races are done in privat lobby with race quality set to high. Different online lobby configurations has slightly different physics having a small difference in lap time and balance. The latter is most noticable when tuning for tire wear over a long stint.

....................Highlander................My Laguna...................My Rome
Aero..............Default....................40/65.........................40/65
LSD...............20/8/8.....................13/20/25....................10/44/25
Ride height.....-27/-27....................13/0..........................4/-4
Springs..........16.4/16.7..................15/15........................14/14.3
Damp E...........6/6.........................6/4............................5/4
Damp C...........5/5.........................8/6............................4/3
ARB................2/2.........................4/4............................5/5
Camber...........2.0/1.5....................1.4/1.2.......................2.5/0.4
Toe...............-0.10/-0.02...............-0.15/-0.15.................0.10/-0.15
Breaks............8/6.........................4/9............................4/8
Best time........TBD........................1'16.7xx......................1'02.089

I will test at trail Mountain next time I get on the system. A paper study on above tunes, I think highlander is using the LSD to tune away the understeer where I use the ridehight and to some extent rear toe. My best laptimes are set with a 615PP car and specific for that track. I didn't put time for highlanders tune in as when he used it it was with a car set at 585PP.

Someone else might want to test the different tunes and see what laptimes you can get to using the different tunes and how they feel. Note that all tunes are made for Online and I doubt any of them would work at all offline.

Again, thanks Highlander for creating you tune.

 

[Highlandor]

Right so Highlandor... I did a bit of a test with your basic theory on my RX-7.

Didn't stiffen it any (it's already slightly stiffer than my normal for the 7) but anyway after some additional tweaking to toe, damper extension, and alignment settings it's gotten fairly close to where I'd like it to be (though a bit odd feeling really, not exactly the behavior I'm used to), but one very odd thing I noticed is that my LSD seems to have magic'd itself into behaving stronger.

Huge thank you to Rotary Junkie for last night's session, very enlightening - nice guy too. 👍

Front wheels drive's though - Grrrrrrrrrr....... (!!!!)

Thanks Highlander for the tune. As it turns, my next championship race is at Trail Mauntain so that you tested there is very fortunate.

In this league, the regulations are 615PP and soft tires, so quite a bit more power than you tested at.

Yeah, a difference of 20pp in power and tyres changing from hard to soft will have an impact.

I don't know you're driving style or equiptment settings, as highlighted with Rotary Junkie last night, a change or tweak that worked for him and made his car better, made my car worse.

Rotary was able to adjust to the changes in the car by amending his steering input on the wheel, whereas I couldn't as I use the pad. So the tweak that mad his car better was only beneficial when Rotary turned the wheel less, whereas if he turned as much as with the previous setup, this made the tyes 'react' and he car worse. Being a dinosaur on a pad, I haven't that ability to adjust the steering input whilst actaully driving, only by going back to the lobby>options and physically changing the sensitivity.

SAIL - why not come to my lobby and have a test session like Rotary and Nomis3613, we can run some practice races at trial mountain in the Lexus with different setups and see if we can find something that suits or helps you.

My friend was testing a 580+bhp version of this car on racing HARDS using a setup derived from weight distribution, he didn't have a problem with the car and said it felt pretty stable and good. He has a wheel and has 'proper' driving style i.e. feathering / feeding the throttle, whereas I'm a hooligan / animal and just nail it, so I'm sure we will be able to find something that possibly might help you.

Let me know..

Thanks
H

 

[Sail IC]

SAIL - why not come to my lobby and have a test session like Rotary and Nomis3613, we can run some practice races at trial mountain in the Lexus with different setups and see if we can find something that suits or helps you.
H

Thanks for the offer, and I'll add the three of you asPSN friends next time I go online.

I'm using a G27 with game sensitivity=7, but I'm not sure it has an impact on a wheel.

As for all of us, my driving/tuning has evolved. First I was very corner exit centric aiming for a car to be early on the throttle on a tight exit. I worked mostly with the LSD accell and rear toe. Fairly early I also worked on breaking aiming for late break rotating in towards the apex. I then worked mostly with brake balance and dampers. I think my weak point is mid corner. I often end up with a car that when I release the breaks in a slow corner, it first has too strong turn-in followed by front tire slide. This unsettles the car making it challanging to take the optimum line and I also think overall grip gets lost.

I would like to continue to use the 615PP limit as that's what I'm racing at. I also done a few races at 595PP limit, and (for me) the set-up do change. The most obvious being downforce, where I've been running with noticably below the default 35/55 setting. At 585PP I think the optimum downforce will be very lowbut its been on soft tires where the mechanical grip is higher than on hards

 

[godlameroso]

Do I have a complete lack of understand in this area or is it that GT5 simulates ARB's badly.

For example, I did some reading and from what I could understand the simple rules of ARB's is this:

-To reduce understeer- soften front ARB / stiffen rear ARB
-To reduce oversteer- stiffen front ARB / soften rear ARB

Yet in practice whenever I soften the front ARB to reduce mid-corner understeer I get the opposite effect and get yet more understeer. However when I stiffen the front ARB the car seems to become more responsive and results in less understeer.

For example, before noticing this odd 'phenomenon' (if that's what it is and not just me being stupid) I'd go to the complete max of adjustment is desperation to rid myself of understeer and seem to end up with more

The reason I post this is that I've just taken a Z4 I had built but not touched tune wise at all and driven it with front ARB settings of 1,3 & 7 respectively and observed the following results:

ARB setting at 3 (default start position) for the sake of the argument I'm putting across I'll just presume this state to be 'neutral handling'

ARB setting at 1 (to test the soften front bar to increase oversteer theory) I suffered from absolutely horrendous understeer through the corners and direction change became simply abominably bad.

ARB setting at 7 (to test the soften front bar to increase understeer theory) I found this set up to provide a much more rigid feel and I suffered from no understeer at all, in fact the opposite happened and I suffered from an increase in oversteer and the limiting element to the handling was the other suspension settings.

Now this makes... NO SENSE to me whatsoever and flies completely in the face of everything I've ever read about ARB's. So am I either stupid, inept or experiencing something that no one else seems to?

It makes perfect sense, all settings in real life, and somewhat in the game, only work up to a point, and are also heavily dependent on the configuration of the vehicle, i.e. FR MR FF, etc.

The ARB's work as a spring would to reduce roll, so if you have stiff springs and stiff shocks, you would use a soft ARB, the opposite is also true. In your case, your car turned in better with a stiffer front ARB, giving the illusion of less understeer; but ultimately would have had less grip through a continuous corner once weight transfer was completed.

In an FR car like the Z4 M coupe, you would ideally set softer compression, and spring settings in the back(relative to the front). In this case a stiff(but not too stiff) rear ARB would ultimately improve both grip, and reduce understeer, as long as your front isn't improperly set up.

If you want a more tossable car, then you have to delay weight transfer in the rear, relative to the front. This doesn't mean however that you want a soft front end, it means you use the settings to create a condition where the front end reaches maximum weight transfer sooner than the rear.

Throwing terms around like understeer and oversteer is pretty useless IMO, the only thing that means anything is lap time.

 

[godlameroso]

Thanks for the offer, and I'll add the three of you asPSN friends next time I go online.

I'm using a G27 with game sensitivity=7, but I'm not sure it has an impact on a wheel.

As for all of us, my driving/tuning has evolved. First I was very corner exit centric aiming for a car to be early on the throttle on a tight exit. I worked mostly with the LSD accell and rear toe. Fairly early I also worked on breaking aiming for late break rotating in towards the apex. I then worked mostly with brake balance and dampers. I think my weak point is mid corner. I often end up with a car that when I release the breaks in a slow corner, it first has too strong turn-in followed by front tire slide. This unsettles the car making it challanging to take the optimum line and I also think overall grip gets lost.

I would like to continue to use the 615PP limit as that's what I'm racing at. I also done a few races at 595PP limit, and (for me) the set-up do change. The most obvious being downforce, where I've been running with noticably below the default 35/55 setting. At 585PP I think the optimum downforce will be very lowbut its been on soft tires where the mechanical grip is higher than on hards

Play with the toe settings in the front, as this can aid traction mid corner.

 

[Highlandor]

I think my weak point is mid corner. I often end up with a car that when I release the breaks in a slow corner, it first has too strong turn-in followed by front tire slide. This unsettles the car making it challanging to take the optimum line and I also think overall grip gets lost.

Yeah, I understand this...

'Snapping' (that's why I call it anyway, everyone has different interpretations) into a corner upon brake release can be caused by at 3 different things - brakes, LSD or suspension settings.

Making a car 'turn in' from initial braking to applying power at the apex isn't a problem, we should be able to help you.

The fact that the front turns in too much but you haven't mentioned the rear 'spinning out' indicates a certian direction to head in when trying to fix this. It would be different if the front turned to much and then the back 'snaps' aswell (resulting in a powerslide or spin), when the front 'snaps' but the rear holds this should be pretty easy to sort out with a car like the Lexus with the tyres and power / weight ratio, and weight distrubution it has.

Yes, this would affect the car's balance - the front and rear are not 'working together', so the balance is 'out'. This means you can't be either aggessive or consistent with the car as it wouldn't be inspiring confidence to drive 'flat out'.

It's difficult to advise changing XXXX or YYYY without seeing, and more importantly, driving your car with your setup, in RACE, conditions, that's a superb way of getting a feel of the car and then looking at the settings to see how the settings reflect how the car feels.

Once that has been done it should be fairly easy to get this car to work for you personally.

Look forward to seeing you soon.

H