Apple v. FBI...

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Kent

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As the situation is unfolding we are witness to the great debate of security versus privacy. Where do our rights as citizens end and where does the government's power to intrude begin?

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thanks and try to keep it civil. :D
 
Just like your home and your car, for example, if the government has probable cause and a search warrant they should be able to access your phone.
 
Just like your home and your car, for example, if the government has probable cause and a search warrant they should be able to access your phone.

In this case, the government has access to the phone. They just can't make heads or tails out of what they've accessed and are trying to force apple to work for free (slavery) to provide a crack to them.
 
From what I understand they want Apple's programming.
If that's the case we should really be asking ourselves if we can trust them about it being just this one phone or if they'll get spy happy and end up with another snowden situation 5 years from now.
 
I may be completely uninformed about this current situation, but why doesn't Apple make this "backdoor", and not give it to the US government, but rather Apple keeps the software to themselves and unlocks the phone for the government on a case by case basis? Maybe force the government to work with Apple, not the other way around. That way the government does not hold the power to breech the privacy of the public?

Genuine questions, I have no idea. From my point of view, Apple is being stubborn about this and in some way impeding a terrorist investigation to potentially gather useful information, when surely there must be a solution that does not require giving the government unnecessary power.

Put it this way, the police ask a landlord of an apartment complex to use his master key to open the door of a single apartment where a crime was committed. Imagine the landlord refusing to open that door.
 
The 4th amendment exit for a reason you know.

I don't see this as a 4th amendment issue. To my understanding the FBI has all the access to the phone they could get legally. They just can't read it. They want help reading it.

Put it this way, the police ask a landlord of an apartment complex to use his master key to open the door of a single apartment where a crime was committed. Imagine the landlord refusing to open that door.

That situation would not be parallel. Apple is not a landlord owning the property in this case. You don't lease your phone from apple, you purchase it. This would be more like the government wanting access to your house after a crime was committed, and telling a locksmith that they have to open the door. The government doesn't have the power to compel a locksmith to open a door for them. They can, however, hire a locksmith to open the door for them.
 
I may be completely uninformed about this current situation, but why doesn't Apple make this "backdoor", and not give it to the US government, but rather Apple keeps the software to themselves and unlocks the phone for the government on a case by case basis? Maybe force the government to work with Apple, not the other way around. That way the government does not hold the power to breech the privacy of the public?

Genuine questions, I have no idea. From my point of view, Apple is being stubborn about this and in some way impeding a terrorist investigation to potentially gather useful information, when surely there must be a solution that does not require giving the government unnecessary power.

Put it this way, the police ask a landlord of an apartment complex to use his master key to open the door of a single apartment where a crime was committed. Imagine the landlord refusing to open that door.
The whole situation has to be looked at from the perspective from who's phone they are actually trying to unlock, rather than the need for a backdoor in the first place (which according to Ben Thompson, is entirely needed for any iPhone operating iOS 8 or later.) Even the Daily Beast has pointed out that Apple has worked with law enforcement 70 times before this particular case, so what makes this particular case different than the previous?

While the phone in question is indeed the San Bernadino shooter's, a more broad question should indeed be asked, why the need Apple's help? Even the FBI themselves admitted that they have developed technology that allows them to crack some iPhones - without Apple's assistance (see the Daily Beast's link). What in the game has changed? It certainly hasn't been the terrorists tactics of communication. The NSA is still intercepting communications from people from all over the globe, and is justified in doing so by way of the FISA courts, which keeps its orders secret.

But why is the FBI getting involved in the tech game? According to the New York Times, it actually originates back in 2010 when the FBI Director Robert Muller III began pressuring the Obama Administration into passing legislation that would bind technology companies like app developer WhatsAPP and tech giant Apple into providing authorities with unsecured data of their networks - something that the phone companies are currently doing, and have been doing since the Clinton Administration. Legislation was drafted by the the FBI, the Justice Department, and the Commerce Department, but was never acted on since the Snowden leaks changed the scope of privacy in America.

The issue at hand isn't a constitutional issue, but rather a statutory interpretation, which could go before the Supreme Court.
 
I may be completely uninformed about this current situation, but why doesn't Apple make this "backdoor", and not give it to the US government, but rather Apple keeps the software to themselves and unlocks the phone for the government on a case by case basis?

Regardless of who holds the key, the mere presence of a backdoor at all provides a vulnerability in the software that could be attacked.
 
If the FBI hired someone to crack the code and the person was successful? That's fine because Apple is going to likely have to make new code at one point.

If the FBI demands Apple gives it to them:
Now two people know the code and the code is going to be present in FBI's devices. If the FBI gets hacked (and they have been vulnerable in the past) then bye bye protection for not just Apple, but likely for all cell phones as it wouldn't shock me if the codes were similar.
 
Normally I don't agree with much that Apple does, but in this case they have my full support.

I see this as a slippery slope type thing, in two respects. First, if Apple cracks the phone for them, who's to say that they can't/won't use this on other phones? Shouldn't it work on all phones of the same model (at the very least)? Will they be using this tool to crack your phone down the road some day? If not, why not? Secondly, if Apple is forced to cooperate a precedent will have been set making it easier in the future for the government to coerce Apple (and others) into things like this in the future.
 
The fed here has been overstepping bounds for years, whether it be a Nevada cowboy or a silicon valley kid. I'm all for standing up to them.
 
If people are unfamiliar with it, they might find it useful to read up on what happened to Lavabit.

Basically, it was an encrypted email service and the only way to decrypt one persons emails was to decrypt all emails. The government demanded the master keys, under far more dubious circumstances than those surrounding this case. Lavabit ended up shutting down rather than complying.

Simply cracking a phone is fine, if that's all it is. Creating a new OS that potentially removes encryption from all phones is kind of not. And forcing Apple to create something that nullifies a major feature of their hardware doesn't feel right at all.

I suspect that the next iPhone will be designed in such a fashion that Apple will be unable to help breach encryption at all. As it probably should have been in the first place, but being able to update is useful and they probably never thought they'd be strong-armed into breaking their own system.

I understand that the government gets scared when it can't keep an eye on everything we say, but that's tough titties.
 
If Apple can be compelled by the US Government via a court order to break into the iPhone, what stops another country's government from using this as a precedent to compel Apple to break into the iPhones of the people that that country doesn't like via a court order as well? If Apple acquiesces to this demand, what leg does Apple have to stand on when fighting another country's government's demands?

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This is an interesting take on how the Government compelling Apple to break into this iPhone may be a violation of the company's First Amendment rights.
 
(They) are trying to force apple to work for free (slavery) to provide a crack to them.

Do you feel their request would be more appropriate if they offered to reimburse Apple for their work at a fair market rate?

If Apple acquiesces to this demand, what leg does Apple have to stand on when fighting another country's government's demands?

They would, no doubt, fight such a case on the jurisdictional nature of any US judgement... but as you suggest the legal precedent of such a judgement would be long-lasting and far-reaching.


For me that's not just a "take", it's the whole situation. Apple's code represents their speech of free volition and cannot be permuted by order. Apple do not hold the information that the FBI seek access to but they do hold their right to free speech.

There are shades of Blackberry's undoing in the Middle East in this case.
 
Do you feel their request would be more appropriate if they offered to reimburse Apple for their work at a fair market rate?



They would, no doubt, fight such a case on the jurisdictional nature of any US judgement... but as you suggest the legal precedent of such a judgement would be long-lasting and far-reaching.



For me that's not just a "take", it's the whole situation. Apple's code represents their speech of free volition and cannot be permuted by order. Apple do not hold the information that the FBI seek access to but they do hold their right to free speech.

There are shades of Blackberry's undoing in the Middle East in this case.
How quickly would it take for someone with friendly ties to ISIS to get this code and use it for their own nefarious purposes? The problem the FBI doesn't see is security won't be heightened by doing this, but rather would be lessened.
 
Put it this way, the police ask a landlord of an apartment complex to use his master key to open the door of a single apartment where a crime was committed. Imagine the landlord refusing to open that door.

That's putting it the wrong way. The landlord is the owner of the property and the means already exist for him to access his property. There are already legal precedents for such access being ordered and effected.

That example has nothing at all in common with this thread's case.

How quickly would it take for someone with friendly ties to ISIS to get this code and use it for their own nefarious purposes? The problem the FBI doesn't see is security won't be heightened by doing this, but rather would be lessened.

It's a good question, I'd guess that the answer is "not very long".
 
My fear is if there was a backdoor, that information would probably hit the streets in 3-6 months. Which would hurt the rest of the populace on iOS devices. And then, approaching every contact and trace everything stored in that phone, because Apple devices tend to hold lots of user info such as access times and GPS data.

They've legally obtained the phone, there's no question about that. They just can't do anything with it...wait, can't they use some low-level employee to press every code until it unlocks?
 
My fear is if there was a backdoor, that information would probably hit the streets in 3-6 months. Which would hurt for the rest of the populace on iOS devices.

They've legally obtained the phone, there's no question about that. They just can't do anything with it...wait, can't they use some low-level employee to press every code until it unlocks?
After X Attempts the phone will wipe the data. They want Apple to disable that feature but I am not sure that Apple can do that without rewriting the entire code to allow for the backdoor.
 
I think you can try 5 times, let it sit; try again...wait. Repeat until successful.

I'm probably wrong about this. Maybe I'll do this with an old iPhone and see what happens.
 
I think you can try 5 times, let it sit; try again...wait. Repeat until successful.

I'm probably wrong about this. Maybe I'll do this with an old iPhone and see what happens.
No. You cannot. Because then they wouldn't ask for a code. Then all you would need is a few days and you could crack it.
 

Imagine a lock company creating a lock that cannot be picked without great effort, disables itself after too many failed attempts to open, and cannot have a master key created without information that is specifically held by them.

This company does not allow master keys and has never created one, as the whole point of their product is that it is to be secure. They believe (correctly) that the existence of a master key, even if it's locked in the company safe, is an additional point of insecurity that makes their product less effective.

If the police want to get into an apartment that is locked with one of these special locks, then what? The government can potentially brute force it, with great difficulty. They can force the manufacturer to make a master key, but that also puts at risk every other customer who bought a lock, none of whom have been accused of a crime.


Honestly, if the government does make Apple go through with this they should just go back to outlawing hard encryption. Because that's essentially the state that we'd be in, it would simply be that the poorly informed would think that their data was protected by encryption when actually it was not.

It's a good question, I'd guess that the answer is "not very long".

Depends whether they've got someone inside Apple. They might never get it, it might be a few hours after the code compiles.

I think as with most cryptographic things, the mere existence of a vulnerability or an attack that is significantly more effective than brute force is enough to cause concern. We accept the risk of rubber hose cryptanalysis because you can never avoid the vulnerability of the user, but any other sort of vulnerability should be treated with care.

We know that the NSA has been pushing for years to have backdoors put into cryptosystems, basically since publically available crypto was invented. Companies actually putting backdoors into their encryption systems is scary because then you're relying on security through obscurity.


If I may speak generally for a moment, at this point we can see that the iPhone has a vulnerability. But to exploit it you would need:
1) A programmer that knows the software and hardware well enough to write a hack version of the OS. It's possible that no single person can actually bypass all the security systems, it might need the knowledge of a group. Either way, there's likely not many of them.
2) Apple's master key to compile it so that it will be accepted by the hardwarem which is likely held by a few or only one person, and not the same person that can write the OS.
3) Free access to the phone.

Those first two are pretty hard to get through, as seen by the trouble the FBI is having. If the software existed, those two steps then devolve to "get a copy of the hack OS", which has a number of solutions that are way easier than getting two people to give information of their own free will. At worst, it becomes "how good is Apple's physical security?"

That's the problem. At the moment, the easiest attack that doesn't involve torturing the user for his code needs to go through several people at Apple who have a vested interest in not damaging the security of the device of any user who hasn't been accused of a crime. That's pretty good. If the hack OS gets made, the easiest attack is still hard but way, way easier than it was.

I think you can try 5 times, let it sit; try again...wait. Repeat until successful.

I'm probably wrong about this. Maybe I'll do this with an old iPhone and see what happens.

It's a good thought, but the phone is a 5C. Check out points two and three for a description of why this is infeasible.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-24/why-cant-the-fbi-unlock-an-iphone-apple-vs-farook-case/7194842

Basically, assuming that the setting that destroys data after ten wrong attempts isn't on (in which case they'd be straight up boned), they only get one password attempt an hour. It'd take them ~9 months to crack a 4 digit code, or a few years for a 6 digit, and that's with a lackey sitting there putting in numbers 24/7. Any data they might get would probably be useless by then.
 
I wonder how many hackers are now coding themselves into oblivion to get it done. And how much is the FBI willing to pay for a program that can crack the security?

And I'm with Apple on this one. If they deliver, you just know the agencies around the world will just have a field day with the program. Not a single iPhone will be left alone.
 
I wonder how many hackers are now coding themselves into oblivion to get it done. And how much is the FBI willing to pay for a program that can crack the security?

And I'm with Apple on this one. If they deliver, you just know the agencies around the world will just have a field day with tge program. Not a single iPhone will be left alone.
And the shortsightedness of the FBI and the US Government doesn't realize this.
 
Do you feel their request would be more appropriate if they offered to reimburse Apple for their work at a fair market rate?

Yup. An offer to hire Apple to voluntarily crack it would be far more appropriate than attempting to force them to crack it against their will for free.
 
Can't the FBI get a court order to force Apple to decrypt the individual phone while reimbursing them for the time and effort?
 
Can't the FBI get a court order to force Apple to decrypt the individual phone while reimbursing them for the time and effort?

Wasn't it so that Apple doesn't want to do that because they think that the FBI and other agencies will demand the decryption tool when it's done?
 
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