Was just pointing out the elephant in the room sir. My point was that PD need to fix things fast, And both Sony and PD are well aware of this fact. My point (the current broken game and the faith of consumers and the marketing teams in the name of the product and the competence of the design and dev teams) was perfectly relevent to the topic of this thread "Apprehension for the coming update ?" My point covering both the apprehension of the consumer, how it can affect sonys decision to continue or discontinue support of the franchise and how regular and effective the updates need to be. I feel my posts and points were well within the discussed topic of the thread.
Apprehension for the coming update ?
- Thread starter vatanen ari
- 126 comments
- 13,275 views
- Status
Was just pointing out the elephant in the room sir. My point was that PD need to fix things fast, And both Sony and PD are well aware of this fact. My point (the current broken game and the faith of consumers and the marketing teams in the name of the product and the competence of the design and dev teams) was perfectly relevent to the topic of this thread "Apprehension for the coming update ?" My point covering both the apprehension of the consumer, how it can affect sonys decision to continue or discontinue support of the franchise and how regular and effective the updates need to be. I feel my posts and points were well within the discussed topic of the thread.
- 21
I'm really pleased to see how many people have responded to this post and I've enjoyed the many opinions and view points put forward here in a (mostly) constructive manner. But we seem to be edging off topic.
What I wanted to know is : -how do we all feel about the fact that we had no significant update for this month?
- how will we all feel if february's update is just remote Bspec Bobbing ?
-do we think that PD will keep updating GT5 in a regular, effective and comon-sensical manner or do we think that the updates are going to dwindle and disapear leaving us with, as somone said in this post a GT5 "Beta" ?
What I wanted to know is : -how do we all feel about the fact that we had no significant update for this month?
- how will we all feel if february's update is just remote Bspec Bobbing ?
-do we think that PD will keep updating GT5 in a regular, effective and comon-sensical manner or do we think that the updates are going to dwindle and disapear leaving us with, as somone said in this post a GT5 "Beta" ?
I feel that there will be alot more included fixes/features other than just remote bspec.
I also feel that the lack of a significant update in janurary is nothing to worry about at this point. You have to remember we got 2 updates in december, then janurary is essentially 2-3 weeks of holidays and a week of slowly figuring out where things left off and getting rolling again. Give them till the end of feburary before you start worrying about a lack of updates, realistically they have only really had 2-2.5 weeks of work time since the last update.
As I have pointed out Sony and PD would be/are well aware of the need to get this title up to speed quickly and it would be very high on the priority list if PD are going to keep their jobs and Sony are going to keep their best money maker.
I also feel that the lack of a significant update in janurary is nothing to worry about at this point. You have to remember we got 2 updates in december, then janurary is essentially 2-3 weeks of holidays and a week of slowly figuring out where things left off and getting rolling again. Give them till the end of feburary before you start worrying about a lack of updates, realistically they have only really had 2-2.5 weeks of work time since the last update.
As I have pointed out Sony and PD would be/are well aware of the need to get this title up to speed quickly and it would be very high on the priority list if PD are going to keep their jobs and Sony are going to keep their best money maker.
- 961
That is what I am hoping as well. I copied this from a post I have just written in another thread as it is relevant here;
1.06 will be the first patch where they have had both the feedback and the time to really think about some important and basic improvements to the game, so I think that 1.06 is going to be crucial as to my, and I suggest others, commitment to GT5.
If it is just 'GT Anywhere' then I will see it as a case of adding some more unnecessary frills and realistically game over for myself.
But, if 1.06 includes some key updates that improve the gameplay then things may be different.
What makes me laugh is that people actually think they know what the next update is going to include lol next you'll be predicting lottery numbers, the fact is... There is no facts who cares about weeklyor monthly updates what exactly are you expecting week in week out a golden shrine with your name on it? At least you got a big update in december how do you know what plans he has got lined up maybe there's new features apart from remote control bob that he wants to implement as a suprise or maybe nothing at all and is laughing rolling around in his bed made of money, maybe you should look at the fallout new vegas forum and see what real problems are lol this is a good enough game which does need some more things than just cars but hey what's a racing game without some form of transport
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
What are all those features? last time I checked FM4 ones were still not known.
Are not the newer(expected) features of those games the ones that GT5 has like day cycles, night racing, weather, rally, etc?
- 4,004
- Croatia
Apparently, Shift 2 will not have day/night transitions, but only pre-baked settings instead:
Also no mention of pitstops, tire/fuel depletion, mechanical damage, etc. Only brief talks about "Elite" handling mode and official announcement that core of the physics engine was crafted for controller-population - from Eurogamer inteview with game producer:
As for FM4, only thing we know is that they are working on it, while "introduction" video was nothing but mashup of different motoring-sequences of which parts were pretty much stolen (used without settling the copyright issues) and have nothing to do with the actual future game content.
http://jalopnik.com/5713901/microsoft-stole-footage-for-forza-4-game-trailer
So, I stand by what Zer0 said - we can't say anything untill we get both games on dispsal and see what will they actually bring.
leper-messiah
(Banned)
- 40
GinoLicious
(Banned)
- 344
So an update on the 27th. Wonder what it'll involve.
- 4,004
- Croatia
27th Feb? Any link for that specific date?
- 943
- ucwepn05
I think sony cornered Kaz and yelled "1080p!!!!!!!! 3D!!!! PS EYE support!!!!!" and similar useless crap that wasn't at all necessary for the GT series. Things like that were big time wasters and space takers IMO, I mean seriously how many people are playing in 3d? or using PS eye support?
- 4,004
- Croatia
You see, your coin have two sides actually.
What have you just said about PD, calling them "stereotypical ignorant east asian video game developer" can easily be said for all other Western developer when you put some issues - of which you didn't even think about for a second - in real perspective.
In 1997 first Gran Turismo game introduced one of it's most recognizable features, one that no other developer has even manage to copy and not to even speak about improve even 13 years later.
That feature has steadily evolve throughout the GT series - it is philosophy of "ownership/maintenance". Paired with great physics-engine, that philosophy creates a unique feel of synergy of driver (player/owner) and the vehicle.
All other Western developers have never even tried to develop such feature, probably aware that more than 95% of users would rather "own" their car without any consequences for actual mechanical-status of the vehicle corresponding with way you actually drive/treat/own it.
One franchise even tried to copy another GT-series unique idea of "AI evolution", but they ditched it after the first game. On the other hand, GT made a self-contained mode out of B-Spec and although many players simply do not know how to use it properly or they simply do not like the idea of developing an AI player, B-Spec mode is another area where GT series has never gotten praise it deserves.
Not to speak about GT series being most important for revolution in steering-devices in the whole genre, where 900-degree rotation and corresponding force-feedback libraries together with development of today industry-standard TouchSense technology (made with Logitech) was bring to mass-market only because of sheer effort of Yamauchi and his seek for crafting an ultimate steering device (which he continued almost a decade later, this time with Thrustmaster and T500RS wheel).
In contrary to stereotypical ignorant Western video game developers who blindly seek to satisfy the players with shiny and glittery details and features that will please the casuals and incompetent press, Gran Turismo series introduced and developed two great and unique features that differentiate it from all other games in the genre and made it an only real "simulation" of actual racing when ownership and maintenance of the vehicle are concerned.
Yet, I bet lots of my money that NOT A SINGLE review of ANY GT game so far haven't put any emphasis on that aspect, focusing instead on how GT game compares to games made in order to satisfy the needs of mass-market.
In light of shortcomings of GT5 I can approve tackling a need to polish/improve content of some features game already have, but it does not take too much objectivism to understand that depth, richness and overall scope of all features that GT5 delivers beats any other driving game currently on the market.
Improving on content of existing features is something that everybody can be fond of - even Kazunori Yamauchi is very aware of many current shortcoming, thus the all official announcements of the updates, etc. - but calling Polyphony Digital a "stereotypical ignorant east asian video game developer" is fundamentally ignorant and shortminded in any mean imaginable.
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- 317
- thomasphoenix98
- thomasphoenix98
That was very well put 
.
.
- 96
Hence why I put it was a RUMOR.
The guy before me said I just started it because I don't like duping/dupers.
leper-messiah
(Banned)
- 40
nope, looking forward to what it contains.
- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
Then let me put an end to it right now. It's NOT a rumor. If I say the Sun will not rise tomorrow, and somebody repeats it, that doesn't make it a rumor. That makes it the repetition of a lie.
Here's a link to Kaz's Twitter account, run through a translation filter. Search it. And you'll see he never said anything of the sort.
http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhiXGW1cnMUEQqLqpk1Y7vJQ7erh8A
- 443
- (Outaouais) Québec.
- XxBen78xX
I'm sorry i was gonna bite my tongue but if your headlights in-game look like dimmed flashlights then you need to get yourself a new tv son. I have only good things to say about night racing.
I wasn't going to mention it but...... You can turn your headlights to 'Full Beam'
Playing in 1080p HD with a Sony Bravia and seriously, the headlights barely shows on the car in front of you when you are tailgating.
I wasn't going to mention it but... you can put the hand brake on and it keeps the car in "park", "son".
- 2,727
- Sele1981
I don´t know about you amar but I don´t buy an game to watch how the AI plays the game... The only "good" thing about B-Spec is that you can make money without playing... I´m still at level 1 in B-Spec and I will never touch it.
Or would you buy God of war III and watch how the AI plays the game...
How can one be both ignorant, yet seek to understand the target audience and what they want from a product at the same time? Both of those concepts are mutually exclusive. To suggest that one can be ignorant of the needs of the consumer yet be driven to understand the consumer is probably the most rediculous statement I have heard in my entire life.
While western designers generally hold focus groups, surveys and browse forums, Many even starting their own forums for the sole reason of interacting with the target audience and finding out what they want. THEN design a game based on that. They do this because they are sales driven and they want to make what appeals to most to make the most sales. Is there anything wrong with this? Not really in my opinion, It is business sense 101.
Kaz and PD kept on making what THEY wanted, completely ignoring the competition and what made it successful, they ignored the target audiences expectations and only considered listening to the target audience AFTER they released what they thought everybody would want and most people said "this is crap". **edit: Actually scratch that last statement. I doubt PD made the decision to start listening to the consumer, As I understand it was sony that held the questionair. Chances are sony drew the line and told them to start listening to the consumer.**
You tell me which approach is ignorant and which isnt. The target you are aiming your product at does NOT change the definition of ignorance
Im not one for stereotypes. I dislike the idea of stereotyping. But even I have to admit that *MOST* stereotypes exist for a reason. East asian devs have a reputation for having zero interaction with their target market, giving absolutely zero care for what may or may not be appealing to the people that are paying their salaries ultimately, But do make a whole lot of what they want themselves. Hence now there is a stereotypical view of east asian devs being completely ignorant of anything around them and making exactly what they want. While that is a great ideal to stick to. Ultimately it will come to a point that a large majority of people will see a feature the dev really thought was the bees knees...and they will say "what the %*^% is this??" (paint chip system anyone? remember the paint chip system didnt just magically appear into existance. Somebody sat at a table and said "ken oath this will be awesome! whos with me? nobody? the customers will hate it you say? ok screw you and screw them this is my game and ill make it how I damn well want to!)
- 535
- p-coletrey
I think that the b-spec announcement is just a pr move to feel out the actual market demand. If they have a grasp on things that's where it will end. My real hope is for a real update like in game sound options, quicker menus, more a-spec, blahblahblah.
My apprehension is that b-spec is the only update, thereby I will conclude they have lost their minds and will look forward to a better game someday.
I think this will be the last big update, once the sales bubble is over they will move on.
My apprehension is that b-spec is the only update, thereby I will conclude they have lost their minds and will look forward to a better game someday.
I think this will be the last big update, once the sales bubble is over they will move on.
I use both. but hey.
I dont think 3d really took that much time. all it really takes is switching out one pov for 2 and rendering both then adding timing information to the frames and shooting them down the output for the 3d tv to do the rest. the standard for 3d transmission is already in place, PD didnt have to design it, they just had to comply to it.Hell there are programs that are miniscule in size that can take any directx game and give it native 3d output in the same fashion.
Now pseye support. If the facial recognition/tracking software didnt already exist for it, then yes that would have taken a LOONG time, If it did, It would have been a case of mapping the output from the face tracking software to the input usually given by whatever button/thumbstick usually pans the camera inside the car. I dont know if the software existed and was given to PD by sony or whoever developed it or if PD had to develop it themselves. But ill give you that one, Yes it could have taken a month or two to dev. But what is a month in 6 years?
As for 1080p glad its there. Dont care how long it took to dev the title that way. I have my wheel mounted to the same stand my 42 inch 3d tv is on and it is immersive as it could possibly be without something mental like a full motion simulator. At that distance the difference between 720 and 1080 is immense.
EDIT: Im not going to pull this thread any further off topic. If amar or ucwepn want to continue these discussions, Perhaps we can start a new thread or continue via pm?
- 8,711
-=DV=- all I will say is that all developers are "ignorant", to a point - they have to be. You cannot make a game to please everyone. Therein lies the crux of Amar's point.
You either make a game to your own exacting standards and please a relatively small demographic, or you bust your balls to make the game appeal to the widest possible range of gamers (i.e. "everyone"). The third option is to make it for the largest single group of players - casuals with disposable income; (Nintendo Wii, anyone?)
Making a game with a one-sided approach is ignorant; which direction of approach matters to you depends on exactly which demographic group you belong to, in light of a specific game, or type / genre of game. This is why some people "dislike" games like LFS, rFactor et al. whilst others dislike Shift, Grid et al.
Updates offer the chance to patch up the holes left by said ignorance, assuming those players put off by the particular holes haven't already bolted. But that's their loss, in a way.
You either make a game to your own exacting standards and please a relatively small demographic, or you bust your balls to make the game appeal to the widest possible range of gamers (i.e. "everyone"). The third option is to make it for the largest single group of players - casuals with disposable income; (Nintendo Wii, anyone?)
Making a game with a one-sided approach is ignorant; which direction of approach matters to you depends on exactly which demographic group you belong to, in light of a specific game, or type / genre of game. This is why some people "dislike" games like LFS, rFactor et al. whilst others dislike Shift, Grid et al.
Updates offer the chance to patch up the holes left by said ignorance, assuming those players put off by the particular holes haven't already bolted. But that's their loss, in a way.
I think the thing is, any franchise that disappoints its faithful only sees the drop in sales on the NEXT iteration. Most were pretty happy with GT4, and GT5p was widely seen as only a 'taster' of what GT5 was going to be (which is weird when you see just how DIFFERENT the final 'taste' actually was) but not the final arbiter. So GT5 sold like hotcakes.
But, unless Kaz is a man of his word, and does update GT5 to be the killer game it needs to be to live up to GT4, Sony won't see the hit until GT6 comes out.
We all rushed out and got GT5 expecting the logical successor to GT4. And got Pokeman instead. Kaz has a limited window to fix what is wrong, because there ARE what seems to be serious challenges coming, in FM4 and Shift 2 (and Shift 3, on the accelerated schedule that SMS seem to be able to make games at!) at the very least. And they will be out WAY, way before GT6 drops. So Kaz HAS to fix what most of us hate (dislike, are mildly irritated at, insert your level of discomfort here) about GT5 in at least a reasonable time frame.
In my case, better AI and another 400 A-Spec races will restore my opinion of PD and Kaz's sanity, but B-Spec remote has me wondering if the have the wrong dosage on their meds...
It's truly quite weird to look at Shift 2 and FM4's announced feature sets, and realize 'OMG! That's EXACTLY what we all have been asking for!' while GT5 and Kaz continue to pretend they know NOTHING about them. If either (hopefully, BOTH) of these franchises get the physics part right, who is even going to BOTHER coming back for GT6?
If GT5 ISN'T turned into what we all want (and expected in the first place) pretty soon...
This post in a nutshell.
If they dont make some moves on correcting some issues soon there will be no worry about GT6 for me. Its a shame that the franchise is teetering...
- 6,693
- Mexico City
- MoLieG
I've read really good points here people:
-PD and Kaz are pretending they have NO COMPETITION
-PD and Kaz are not hearing us at all...
-GT5 was supposed to have a lifetime of 1-2 years... not 3-4 months...
-Forza 4 and Shift 2 can (and I think will) destroy GT now that PD and Kaz left the door mooore than open... Unless they surprise us in the next update(s) with something more than that "B-spec everywhere" Bu:censored:t...
Kaz reputation should have dropped to the ground by now... GT5 is good, but overall the game simply doesn't lives up to his word...
But the saddest thing of all, at least for me, is that PD and Kaz could have done THE MOST LEGENDARY RACING GAME OF ALL TIME... but yet... they didn't want to do it...
Hope GT can survive after those 2 games appear...
-PD and Kaz are pretending they have NO COMPETITION
-PD and Kaz are not hearing us at all...
-GT5 was supposed to have a lifetime of 1-2 years... not 3-4 months...
-Forza 4 and Shift 2 can (and I think will) destroy GT now that PD and Kaz left the door mooore than open... Unless they surprise us in the next update(s) with something more than that "B-spec everywhere" Bu:censored:t...
Kaz reputation should have dropped to the ground by now... GT5 is good, but overall the game simply doesn't lives up to his word...
But the saddest thing of all, at least for me, is that PD and Kaz could have done THE MOST LEGENDARY RACING GAME OF ALL TIME... but yet... they didn't want to do it...
Hope GT can survive after those 2 games appear...
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And my question about GT's future after 5 sits right there.
This idea might work if you are working on a development cycle of months and tens of thousands...maybe even a hundred thousand dollars.To sony that is a relatively small amount to "try it and see" so to speak.
But when you are asking years of commitment from an investor, and sums of money as large as eighty million dollars (this is larger than the entire annual budget of some nations!) It will be nigh impossible for ANYBODY to pick up your project. The whole "I'll make it my way and frankly screw anybody else that might want to invest in it or play it. Its my masterpiece" approach just doesnt keep you in business. Im sure Sony had alot of faith in kaz before gt5. We all did, Thats why he had such creative freedom and blank cheque to play with. Now that sony are asking the questions of the players to try and get GT back on track. You can be sure they will be asking some serious question of kaz also. Sure they got the sales to make up the initial investment this time. That was purely down to GT's shining reputation and good management/going into damage control very quickly.
Sony went into damage control before the game hit the shelves. They put an embargo on all reviews. Alot of people were very offput by what was seen in the few leaked copies. But mostly the worrying finds were put down to "not a final version","fake" ect. Had a review come out before release saying all the things we now know about the game. Sony would have lost an unbelievable amount of pre orders and gt5 may have been a commercial failure rather than a success. Sony know they cant rely on the hype and reputation to sell the next copy before it hits the shelves. Thats why they are asking the questions of the gamers now and NOT leaving it up to kaz.
So taking into account that sony dodged the eighty million dollar bullet, and no longer have what sold so many pre orders of gt5 (a shiny gt reputation and consumer confidence) They know that they cant blindly commit to and trust in kaz's dream alone. They know GT6 is likely to cost more and be bigger than GT5. The question is can sony fix gt5 fast enough and work together with kaz to build a product that will sell 3000000 copies(assuming that about half of the sale price of a game is eaten up by packaging and shipping)? Well to do that they will need to build a game that appeals to alot more than the small percentage that works on exactly the same wavelength of kaz. They will need to start listening to the masses and building a title with compromises that will please nearly everybody. If they dont think that is viable with something as niche as a racing simulator. Or if kaz is not as willing to work with them and hand over a good portion of his creative control to somebody else, well then the future of GT as a video game may very well be in question.
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- 1,466
- Canada
- mikethehockeyfan
The first part of your post, regarding the dev team seemingly a bit out of touch with the current market I agree with....this quoted part though is just complete BS.
GT5 is a marquee franchise that moves consoles, the last thing Sony would do is that.
What reality are you living in?
I do think Sony will be pressuring Polyphony (and Kaz) to pull up their pants on the development of GT6. The absence of a GT title for the new PSP actually might be a big plus. I as a console fan am very happy to see no development time wasted on a watered-down, down-scaled handheld version of GT for the next PSP.
At the end of the day we have a game franchise headed by a single creative vision, and that's why we get the almost insular attitude, quirkyness with the feature set such as GT Auto (kind of like Hideo Kojima's sense of humour), and the slipping of release dates. Is it harmful to the franchise? For GT5 it has obviously been. I hope Polyphony can get their ducks in a row and decide on a solid feature set for GT6, execute it, and release it on time.
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- 1,466
- Canada
- mikethehockeyfan
You see it's posts like this that irritate me. Maybe they're a symptom of forum-goers being the most rabid fans of a community, with the most inflated expectations out there among fans of a given franchise.I've read really good points here people:
-PD and Kaz are pretending they have NO COMPETITION
-PD and Kaz are not hearing us at all...
-GT5 was supposed to have a lifetime of 1-2 years... not 3-4 months...
-Forza 4 and Shift 2 can (and I think will) destroy GT now that PD and Kaz left the door mooore than open... Unless they surprise us in the next update(s) with something more than that "B-spec everywhere" Bu:censored:t...
Kaz reputation should have dropped to the ground by now... GT5 is good, but overall the game simply doesn't lives up to his word...
But the saddest thing of all, at least for me, is that PD and Kaz could have done THE MOST LEGENDARY RACING GAME OF ALL TIME... but yet... they didn't want to do it...
Hope GT can survive after those 2 games appear...
GT5 having a lifetime of 3-4 months? The game has online racing, and they didn't phone it in as far as the feature set for the online lobbies and matchmaking either.
I look at GT5 as being the first game of a very new frontier for the series. Everything up to now has been getting the best car with the most horsepower and farming credits, passing stupid AI until you get 100% completion. Online racing in the GT series changes all of that. That virtual car museum you have offline after completing the "story mode" and having nothing to do is now the second life for each new GT release.
Forza 4 is going to be an excellent game, but Shift 2? Are you joking? This is the game where damage was left out of the PS3 version due to release date constraints.
- 8,711
GT5 is full of compromises to appeal to a wider set of gamers, it's not "Kaz's masterpiece" by any stretch. The project was given too much coverage too early, too much pressure to release when it needed more time to reboot and actually become a masterpiece. Luckily, we still have time for GT5 to be "patched up" to something more semblant of previous iterations' "impact".
You're definitely right about Sony's "damage control" though - I hope they see it as their own mistake, for trying to push two GT titles on two new (to the series) and technically demanding architectures.
I don't agree that "GT6" (in whatever form that takes, assumedly on the PS3) will cost more to make. GT5's chassis is sturdy and versatile enough that only the bodywork needs upgrading
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