Arab crisis ; opinion video

I was touched by the angle she took on Muslim terrorists, comparing them with the Jews in 30's - 40's. Many good points. Very smart woman. 👍
 
That lady is very smart, indeed. She really understands what's going on in the world, and can see the results that will come out of the current actions of radical Muslims. The radicals are giving Islam a bad name, but the good Muslims aren't trying to counter that by making good choices that stand out. The bad always takes center stage against the good which makes it difficult to get the peaceful image back, especially when the bad has been going on for so long and prejudices have been well established. I just wish more Muslims would follow this woman's example.
Oh, and notice how the old guy stopped talking at the end of the video--he realized he was wrong and he's an idiot.:lol:
 
I do not believe in any god, personnal stuff.

I understand why people may believe in some type of supernatural power, but I don't understand why they CAN'T understand that some don't.

I just can't stand his reaction when he says; you don't believe in any god, so you are a heretic?

I love it when she says:

"Brother, you can believe in stones as long as you don't throw them at me."
 
Div is back
I do not believe in any god, personnal stuff.

I understand why people may believe in some type of supernatural power, but I don't understand why they CAN'T understand that some don't.

I just can't stand his reaction when he says; you don't believe in any god, so you are a heretic?
While I do believe in existance of God, I can totally understand what you are saying. Religion is not something you want to force on people....... except kids. I'd expect kids to follow their parents to church or whatever. When you move out or you are 18, the decision should be yours. That's my opinion on that.
 
I had to look up the definition of heretic, and I found that it's a person who holds a controversial opinion, or is dissenting from the accepted idea, especiall one rebelling from the Catholic church. I have this funny feeling that the lady isn't going against the Catholic church, seeing as she's Arabic. You know, the old guy made a good call shutting up like he did.
And about beliveing in religion and all that, I think people come up with their own ideas when their brains are developed enough to do so. If not, I think something unnatural is happening, like they're being forced into believing one thing or the other. Naturally, the human mind thinks freely. Even things like peer pressure are unnatural--in perfect circumstances our minds would think freely and invent, create, and investigate. Since many religions don't allow the followers' minds to do that--they must follow the religion's "facts", after all--those religions are unnatural.
 
Yeah, seen it. My aunt sent me it last week or something. I wouldn't doubt if it was fixed, though. The subtitles, regardless of whether she actually said them, however, are very well said and very powerful.
 
keef
I had to look up the definition of heretic, and I found that it's a person who holds a controversial opinion, or is dissenting from the accepted idea, especiall one rebelling from the Catholic church. I have this funny feeling that the lady isn't going against the Catholic church, seeing as she's Arabic. You know, the old guy made a good call shutting up like he did.
I think heretic means, people from different religion(in kind of a negative way, I think).

keef
And about beliveing in religion and all that, I think people come up with their own ideas when their brains are developed enough to do so. If not, I think something unnatural is happening, like they're being forced into believing one thing or the other. Naturally, the human mind thinks freely. Even things like peer pressure are unnatural--in perfect circumstances our minds would think freely and invent, create, and investigate. Since many religions don't allow the followers' minds to do that--they must follow the religion's "facts", after all--those religions are unnatural.
Are you saying that kids will be brainwashed, if they are exposed to something like Bible for example? If so, I'm sure it will affect them, but not that much.
 
I was thinking that it could be set up while reading the titles also, since they are spoken, err, typed pretty intelligently. But I'd like to hope that somebody out there actually said that, preferably the lady.

EDIT:
Are you saying that kids will be brainwashed, if they are exposed to something like Bible for example? If so, I'm sure it will affect them, but not that much.
I'm talking about kids who are actually being forced, either physically or mentally, i.e. brainwashed, into believing a religion is fact. Not many people have this happen to them. Only the wierd cult religion type groups do that, like the radical Islamic terrorist people. They really have been brainwashed and are incapable of free thought, which is why they will do anything and everything for their religion. That group in California a decade back was like this also; their leader said that they'd all leave on a spaceship that was following a comet to go to a better place. When the comet past, I forget which one it was, they all commited suicide at the same time. They were sleeping in the same compound, they were all laying on their backs, they were all freaks. I saw a couple videos of their leader speaking to them--it looked like he was on some sort of drug because he raely blinked and talked like he was out of it.
Anyway, 99% of kids that grow up with religion aren't negatively effected by it. They're probalby smarter, actually, because they can understand both sides. But forcing someone to follow a reilgion until they're 18, when they;ve been able to think for themselves for the past 5 or so years? I think that's a little much. If your teenager says "I don't bleive this" then let him believe his own thing, and don't make him go to church if he doesn't want to.
It's only the crazy peopole that cause problems. Cults like that are completely against human nature.
 
Oh, man. It would really suck, if they were actually talking about the Iraqi's national team in the next World Cup or something.......
 
All the Iraqis show up with their AKs in hand, ready to blast the other team's players if they dare catch a fly ball. "Allahllahllah!!! BANG! SHOOT! POP! BOOM! You infidel! How dare you catch Allah's Sacred Baseball!?"
 
keef
But forcing someone to follow a reilgion until they're 18, when they;ve been able to think for themselves for the past 5 or so years? I think that's a little much. If your teenager says "I don't bleive this" then let him believe his own thing, and don't make him go to church if he doesn't want to.
It's only the crazy peopole that cause problems. Cults like that are completely against human nature.
With people I know, they barely learn to think for themselves in their early 20's. :P But seriously, I think it depends on the kid and his/her parents. You are right, 18 is bit high, but that's my stance on it. I can just see it now, "You live in my house, you follow my rules! :mad: " :lol:

keef
All the Iraqis show up with their AKs in hand, ready to blast the other team's players if they dare catch a fly ball. "Allahllahllah!!! BANG! SHOOT! POP! BOOM! You infidel! How dare you catch Allah's Sacred Baseball!?"
Come on now, keef. You know better than that(I hope).
 
That is one smart, and brave, woman 👍

What are the odds she'll be killed soon - In the name of Allah ?...
 
Excellent clip - if ever there was a good argument in favour of rationality over religious fundamentalism or supernaturalism, then Wafa Sultan has made it pretty firmly.

I totally agree with the general point that the Islamic fundamentalist mindset (which is not in good agreement with the majority of moderate Muslims) is a primitive and backward mindset which is ultimately doomed to failure. However, I don't totally agree with the point about Jewish scientists:- ("Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists"), but I do agree with the more general point that science and rationality has advanced humankind in a far more tangible and useful way than religious fundamentalism has ever done or can ever do...

Flerbizky
What are the odds she'll be killed soon - In the name of Allah ?...

Sadly, it is people exactly like Wafa Sultan - rational, straight-talking, open, honest, reasoned, useful, productive, creative and deeply intelligent - that people like the Taliban would gladly execute without a second thought. It would be one thing if they could have a reasoned argument about why they would, but they wouldn't. Indeed, the Taliban wouldn't even let her speak because she is a woman... let alone a secular woman. It is our responsibility to ensure that people like Sultan are allowed to speak, rather than dragged to the nearest football stadium and stoned to death.
 
Great find Carl. 👍

edit: Here is a transcript of the interview (reprinted in the Jerusalem Post)

One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.

OK, so she is damaging Islam by pointing out where Islam is going wrong? I believe that suicide bombers and radical fundamentalist clerics who simply won't listen to a reasoned argument are the ones who are defacing Islam... by seeking to challenge the behaviour of radical clerics who preach hate and murder on a daily basis in the name of Islam, Dr. Sultan (a secular scholar) is, in my view, actually trying to help Islam regain some dignity and respect - she clearly points out in the interview that she herself is not religious, but respects the freedom of others to have religious belief.

Wafa Sultan:-
Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them

Hardly the words of an 'infidel', or someone seeking to harm or damage Islam...

She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel.

It's interesting that these clerics who can declare anyone they see fit as an infidel are almost certainly unelected men who assume a 'moral' authority over all and sundry - largely, if not entirely based on their belief that their interpretation of the Qu'ran is absolutely correct. For me, they act and say whatever they want without any real authority at all... disagree with them, and you are an unbeliever... an infidel! It's ironic, but what would happen if suddenly everyone did behave exactly the way these clerics seem to want everyone to behave? They'd have nothing to do! Sure as eggs is eggs they would swiftly find some other reason to beat you with their stick of assumed moral authority...

DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."

"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."

The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."
Given the furore caused by the publication of a few cartoons in a Danish newspaper, and previously Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses", we can expect to see another loud and violent reaction to this book...
 
Second 👍 Nice find Carl...

I find this bit quite interesting :
Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.

"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."
Now the Muslims may or may not realize this, but if Dr. Sultan is killed, they themselves have made a martyr against Islam - Bigger than anyone before.. We finally have a Muslim who dares speak what is wrong, and if they themselves kill her, they're doing more damage to Islam than all the flag and embassy burning ever did !...
 
Dr. Sultan
It's a clash between a mentality that belongs in the middle ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century

[QUOTE="Dr." Ibrahim Al-Khouli]Are you a heretic?

[...]

If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran...[/QUOTE]

I think that would qualify as a proper demonstration, right there.... this is almost funny.

I truly admire this woman.
 
Carl.
I think that would qualify as a proper demonstration, right there.... this is almost funny.
More like Tragic don't you think ?...

The problem is - These people don't see this - They see exactly what they want to see, and the rest to them, is bonkers. No matter what anybody else says.. I can just see the little misguided man in his head with his eyes closed, hands clasped over ears screaming at the top of his lungs "I'M NOT LISTENING - LA LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING!"...

I truly admire this woman.
Yup - How can you not !...
 
You live in fear for what you have said, or your belief. Sounds as bad, or worse than the Soviet Union. :guilty:
 
I came here to post that clip. I'm glad to see it's already up.

Her death will be a tragedy - let's all hope it comes at the end of a long and fulfilling life rather than a few weeks from now at the wrong end of a box of C4 and roofing nails.
 
She lives here in Southern California. The Los Angeles Times ran a story on her Sunday. Here's an "abstract":

In a blunt interview on Al Jazeera television last month, Sultan harshly criticized Islam as violent and unfavorably compared Muslims with Jews. In remarks Sunday at her Corona home, Sultan, who said she left the faith after witnessing an act of religious extremism, went even further, saying Islam was beyond repair with teachings that exhorted Muslims to kill non-Muslims, subjugate women and disregard human rights.

Other Muslims questioned why groups outside the faith were so avidly promoting a non-Muslim to criticize Islam, a practice that has occurred before and is a sore spot in the Islamic community, particularly since many respected Muslims also advocate change.

Some Muslims, however, have embraced at least part of Sultan's message. Ani Zonneveld of the Progressive Muslim Union in Los Angeles, who has been fighting to gain wider acceptance of female musicians in Islam, said she put the link to Sultan's Al Jazeera interview on her personal website, under the title "[Wafa Sultan] Rocks!" But Zonneveld said Sultan's critiques were not new. Plenty of practicing Muslims, including Zonneveld, have been outspoken in criticizing the way some Muslims interpret their tradition's teachings on women, human rights and interfaith relations, she said.



This letter appeared today in the Times. The author makes a valid point, I suppose, but you still have to admire Ms. Sultan's incredible courage.

Wafa Sultan joins the ranks of other outspoken female critics of Islam, namely the Netherlands' Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Canada's Irshad Manji. The difference is that Sultan is an Arab who speaks flawless Arabic, which gives her access not only to Arabic media such as Al Jazeera but to the elite of the Islamic religious establishment. She is courageously using that access to "speak truth to power."

I would like to congratulate Sultan for her well-intentioned efforts to promote reform in the Arab and Islamic world. Yet despite her courage and fortitude, I am sad to say that her tactics, such as a recent debate with a Muslim cleric on Al Jazeera, will actually weaken the noble cause of reform. To understand why, we need only rely on our basic political common sense and the concept of "know your audience." Reformers should remember that Arabs and Muslims, in general, are ultraconservative and deeply religious. Therefore, they are unlikely to respond in a positive manner to a woman appearing on Arab TV unveiled, proudly asserting that she does not believe in God. Sultan's appearance on Al Jazeera had the approximate impact of a tattooed, body-pierced, pro-abortion, flag-burning, gay communist debating Rush Limbaugh on the Fox News Channel, trying to sway the audience toward a liberal philosophy. Would anyone consider that a successful tactic?



How long before some Muslim cleric issues a Fatwah calling for her execution? I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Of course, it would prove her point perfectly, so maybe that's making them think twice. Still, she has to be in real danger.
 
She lives in America, right? It angers me that you guys say she is in danger, like she isn't safe in this country. Now, I know she is in danger, and I know all of us are in danger from many things, but it still makes me mad to think that. I guess I don't want to realize that nobody is safe from anything here. We ahve this Constitution and all these laws and rights and stuff, and none of it matters because she could be killed at any time by some insane person. The only good that will come out of that is the insane person will be punished. I always thought that looking over your shoulder every now and then to make sure noone is pointing a gun at your head was something that only happened in the rest of the world, not in America.
Ultra conservative and highly religious, huh? And they wonder why we say that we're so much more advanced than them.
 
Zardoz
(From article):- "I would like to congratulate Sultan for her well-intentioned efforts to promote reform in the Arab and Islamic world. Yet despite her courage and fortitude, I am sad to say that her tactics, such as a recent debate with a Muslim cleric on Al Jazeera, will actually weaken the noble cause of reform. To understand why, we need only rely on our basic political common sense and the concept of "know your audience." Reformers should remember that Arabs and Muslims, in general, are ultraconservative and deeply religious. Therefore, they are unlikely to respond in a positive manner to a woman appearing on Arab TV unveiled, proudly asserting that she does not believe in God. Sultan's appearance on Al Jazeera had the approximate impact of a tattooed, body-pierced, pro-abortion, flag-burning, gay communist debating Rush Limbaugh on the Fox News Channel, trying to sway the audience toward a liberal philosophy. Would anyone consider that a successful tactic?"
I think this analysis does Al-Jazeera a slight disservice - Al-Jazeera is the largest (or certainly the most well-known) Arabic news broadcasting agency, with a global reach - and although her principal 'target audience' (i.e. Islamic fundamentalists) are indeed ultraconservative and deeply religious, I think she was really appealing to the Muslim community en masse (most of which are not fundamentalists - least of all the typically well-educated and well-informed viewers that Al-Jazeera attracts) who are probably not going to balk at the sight and sound of an intelligent and well-reasoned argument such as that she was putting across...

Although she may well have been too blunt for the fundies, I personally don't think that her appearance on Al-Jazeera is anything like the example quoted above... by appearing unveiled, by speaking her opinions clearly and forthrightly, and by not kow-towing to the ridiculous expectations of the fundamentalists, Wafa Sultan is 'leading by example' (not that she is seeking personal fame or any form of leadership role)... would anyone take her more seriously if she had worn a burkha? I doubt it...
 
She looked somewhat like Benazir Bhutto, who led Pakistan for a while, in an indian-style non-fundamentalist garb.

Al-Jazeera are a very interesting broadcasting corporation though, well worth reading up on, definitely one of the pluckiest broadcasters around.
 
You know...she should be made the next prophet of Muslim and teach what Muslim really is to those blind idiots that burn Danish flags, fly planes into towers, support suicide bombers, and kill any non-Muslims they see.
 
Radical Islamic terrorists have killed more of their own religion than of any other. They kill anybody who doesn't follow their rules, no matter if they are relatives or friends or whatever.
 
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