Are expanded grids (more than 16 cars on track) possible in future GT games?

[Johnnypenso]

64 cars offline is perfectly possible on lower spec PCs in high end Simulators and quite appropriate on larger tracks like Le Sarthe and the Nurburgring. I would be disappointed in GT7 or PS4 Project Cars if we can't have fields of at least 32.

With Project Cars licensing of Le Mens 24hrs I think at least 32 on PS4 and ideally much more are the minimum to represent a good multiclass field.

Like it or not GT7 on PS4 has to be competitive with PC and also the Steam console as direct competition.

As I'm sure you are aware, there's a huge difference between a PS4/Xbone and a high end or even a mid-range PC, and also between online and offline. I think even 32 may be a stretch for the consoles even offline, at the quality of resolution, frame rate, physics etc we expect in all next gen racing games. It's pretty telling to me that DriveClub has an unprecedented list of features, but cannot do this with 60fps. From this we can conclude that the ceiling is not quite so high as we might think for the new consoles. I realize some people don't care for 60fps vs. 30fps and that's fine. But for a sim I think it would inexcusable to have anything less than a rock solid 60fps next generation.

I hope PCars sticks to their philosophy of gameplay first and not making sacrifices in critical areas to achieve worthless internet accolades like "most cars on track" or other things that look great on the box, and cost us frame rate or consistency or something else critical to immersion. I hope PD does the same but their history would indicate otherwise.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

As I'm sure you are aware, there's a huge difference between a PS4/Xbone and a high end or even a mid-range PC, and also between online and offline. I think even 32 may be a stretch for the consoles even offline, at the quality of resolution, frame rate, physics etc we expect in all next gen racing games. It's pretty telling to me that DriveClub has an unprecedented list of features, but cannot do this with 60fps. From this we can conclude that the ceiling is not quite so high as we might think for the new consoles. I realize some people don't care for 60fps vs. 30fps and that's fine. But for a sim I think it would inexcusable to have anything less than a rock solid 60fps next generation.

I hope PCars sticks to their philosophy of gameplay first and not making sacrifices in critical areas to achieve worthless internet accolades like "most cars on track" or other things that look great on the box, and cost us frame rate or consistency or something else critical to immersion. I hope PD does the same but their history would indicate otherwise.

I'm with you on frame rate Johnny. I'm not overtly techie but it's on a mid range lap top from 5 years ago running Win7, with i5 processors,4gb memory and a 1gb lower end graphics card. I don't know how that compares technically to my PS4 but I run offline races with 32-36 regularly. On some tracks like Spa, Le Mens, Nurb, Targa Florio where I try running 40-64 cars, the frame rate is still pretty good. I appreciate online might not be up to that realistically but those field sizes 32+ aren't unrealistic for endurance racing and make the offline races much more fun when racing for long periods.

I would like the flexibility to choose the performance of the games myself. It's there on games like Game Stock Car Extreme, GTR2, Race 07, rFactor and iRacing. If i want to lower the locked frame rate from 60 to a solid 50 frames per second (some might choose 30fps) then the game should give me a bit extra elsewhere (car count or extra graphical quality). Online is different and maybe the network (and some people's connections) might be the limiting factor.

I must admit I'm not sure on how the PS4 processors compare to my laptop but graphical and gameplay options are golden in my book.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Awesome idea. There's some more sliders to add in...

 

[trustjab]

Its a good thing PD are one of the best in Sony's court. They can pull a rabbit out a hat when need be. GT6 is a big game and even with hiccups it looks good on ps3 hardware thats way outdated. I think ps4 is a breath of fresh air for PD. They have plenty to work with. No game is coming close to the max that ps4 has to give. So theres chances imo of larger grids.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

The PS3 was a shaft to Sony in whole, not just PD.....

The 4 was properly designed, and looks to become the new standard. Now for PD to build something mind blowing!

 

[Johnnypenso]

I would like the flexibility to choose the performance of the games myself. It's there on games like Game Stock Car Extreme, GTR2, Race 07, rFactor and iRacing. If i want to lower the locked frame rate from 60 to a solid 50 frames per second (some might choose 30fps) then the game should give me a bit extra elsewhere (car count or extra graphical quality). Online is different and maybe the network (and some people's connections) might be the limiting factor.

I must admit I'm not sure on how the PS4 processors compare to my laptop but graphical and gameplay options are golden in my book.

I'd love to see more options too, but so far anyway, it's just not the "console way" of doing things. The console approach and certainly PD is lock, stock and barrel into this, has usually been more of a one-size-fits-all approach with limited options and steering gameplay down narrowly defined paths. Too many options can confuse the casual gamers especially when the options are not always clearly explained..aka...much of what PD does in GT. One need only look at update descriptions from PD and then look at most other developers changelogs, especially those developing car games. Night and day.

PC games on the other hand, like those you quoted, tend to cater to a smaller, more specific audience, dare I say more of an enthusiast. Someone who will take their time to find their way around things and figure out how everything works. I'd like to see more sim crossover into console, and PCars looks to be that way for the near future. I doubt you'll see much of it in GT though.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Sad, but I think you have a solid argument.....

 

[TRLWNC7396]

I was thinking about this, and I realized that this is where my 5 levels idea hits in. Someone who is not interested in going for the amazing top levels is not going to find all of the options, but someone who does will find many, many options.

 

[trustjab]

Were straying a little off topic here. I am interested in what pd will do to take advantage of assets the ps4 has. I know theres plenty of time left as well, so we'll see how they can manage the whole package in looks, gameplay, smooth framerate etc. in relation to the number of cars on track.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Agreed.

 

[Tenacious D]

I wouldn't draw any conclusions of what's possible on PS4 from Drive Club. To me, they're making some very dumb decisions, such as modeling a thousand flamingos, and terrain out to more than a hundred kilometers. For that matter, first year games are never an indication of what's possible on a console, especially one that's the equivalent of a still serious gaming PC, but without the grab bag of various architectures and Windoze OS. As to what they're aiming for in a PS4 race, I would quote Kazunori-sensei:

A 20-hour stint in the garage pieced the GT-R back together before the event's start, and it was a commendable achievement just making it to the end of a 24-hour race where 175 entrants across multiple classes battle it out across the 16.1 mile circuit. ((As) to whether we'll ever see such vast numbers of cars in multi-class racing in a Gran Turismo game, Yamauchi says, "It's one of our milestones, and it's on our list of things to do.")

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Having been on-track with 40-50 cars at once (see also: track day at Mosport DDT) I can admit, it's a different atmosphere with that many cars around. Continually checking your mirrors, approaching slower cars, and still trying to run your own line is a daunting task.


I'd love to see it in GT, and I think 30 would be an excellent milestone for GT7; all while maintaining frame rate. I also did a 34 car touring car race at the NASCAR layout of Watkins Glen in Race '07's versions of WTCC, STCC and BTCC. The car specs were exactly the same, basically, and the lap times were the same between the AI and me. In the end, there were 8 cars out of the race, 5 down a lap, and there was a chain of 10 cars crossing the line within three seconds... After a 30 lap race.


Running a 30 lap race with 30 cars is awesome. Having the caution flags come out is awesome. Seeing torn up cars littering the side of the road and only having "best guesses" as to what happened is awesome. Swerving to suddenly avoid 4th and 5th place bumping into each other and spinning in the bus-stop chicane is awesome...


That is the vision I (personally) have for the next Gran Turismo game; a competitive and numerous AI, with a proper grid structure, qualifying, practice and races with yellow flags, black flags... All with the options to be turned off.

 

[trustjab]

I wouldn't draw any conclusions of what's possible on PS4 from Drive Club. To me, they're making some very dumb decisions, such as modeling a thousand flamingos, and terrain out to more than a hundred kilometers. For that matter, first year games are never an indication of what's possible on a console, especially one that's the equivalent of a still serious gaming PC, but without the grab bag of various architectures and Windoze OS. As to what they're aiming for in a PS4 race, I would quote Kazunori-sensei:

Thats something I read a couple days ago and never got around to posting it. His "to-do list" Im sure is quite large. Im not skeptical that PD want multi-class racing and large(r) grids. Im just realistic in thinking it may not be at or near the top of that list. It just depends on what he can accomplish with the ps4 and the blu ray format. Im positive it (blu ray) is very capable of storing lots of information. So I think gt7 will be a huge game. Just hope that huge game has huge grids!

 

[Tenacious D]

I'd love to see larger grids in GT7. But there are considerations.

After experiencing the bashfest known as GRID Autosport, those 16 car grids looked fairly large. Although as I got more into it, I turned the difficulty down so I could get away from those idiots, and admire those grids in my rearview mirror.

20 car fields of close racing would seem immense in a console racer, 24 would be even better. But as I said before, the team needs to find efficient ways to arrive at those large grids so that the quality of the experience doesn't suffer. Framerate is just one aspect, so is sound. Much more important to me are physics (make it even more realistic, but don't let it get flaky when you're surrounded by cars), bot A.I. (don't focus processor cycles on the bots near you and neglect the rest, and make them humanlike), weather and time of day (make it realistic, but keep the demand on the engine and PS4 light), and the environment (make that world come alive with waving flags, swaying trees and foliage, variable breezes and spectators that react to the race realistically, but use leftover CPU power for it). I'd throw online performance in there too.

I know that almost every single gamer wants a photoreal GT7 world to race in with photoreal cars, but I'd suggest ways of culling back resources as much as possible so that the game can cook along with 20-24 liveried, damaged cars in rain at night. I want the world to span dozens of square miles all around me, but I doubt I'd notice simplified textures and polymodels on distant objects. Real time tesselation should cook pretty good on PS4. Use the most efficient AA and other graphics processing so the framerate stays high and consistent.

Then give us a bunch of racing leagues with tons of cars and tracks, Course Maker, Event Maker, Race Mod and an impeccable Livery Editor, along with a bodacious Career Mode, and sell it to me. The FIA sanctioned online championships will be sweet icing.