Are sports cars and performance cars A dying Breed ?

[Joey D]

The point is it's easier to rotate a dizzy cap by hand in a matter of seconds for however much horsepower/torque than it is to go out and buy a programmer for absurd amounts of cash and then fiddle around with it for an hour or so just to see a small gain.

Running a tune through a car doesn't just give it a small gain. With the tune done on my car it went from 227hp to 256hp and from 236lb.ft. of torque to 305lb.ft. It only took the deal a little more than an hour and the changed the oil, did an alignment and washed the car during that time too.

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Anyways, this thread sounds like a couple of Luddites who are afraid of technology. Sporty cars aren't dying out, if anything they are becoming more prevalent than ever. The traditional sports car might be slowly decreasing in popularity but it's pretty easy to get something sporty and fun to drive that's also practical and relatively inexpensive.

 

[Tornado]

Dude duuuuuuuuude don't start with that crap in yet another thread. Yesssss we know you love muscle cars. Yes we all know, believe me, how easy it is to get power out of a V8. Yes we know you can buy el-cheapo 80s Mustangs and make them run well with 5k. The point here is no one asked and no one cares for it in this thread.

Plus no boat anchor 396 or 429 would ever run five flat from the factory.

 

[BobbyBRAKEaNek]

How in the world you ask this when damn near EVERY manufacturer has a sports car or performance sub brand and also the horsepower wars that are reaching defcon 5.

 

[Slash]

Plus no boat anchor 396 or 429 would ever run five flat from the factory.

Considering I've actually been in a stock small block Mach 1 that ran to 75 in 9 seconds flat I'd say that's a load of horsepucky.

 

[Tornado]

So a stock small block 351 is a Boss 429 or SS396?

 

[Slash]

So a stock small block 351 is a Boss 429 or SS396?

No, I'm saying if a 2 barrel 351 Cleveland can pull off a decent time, a big block should be more than capable of it given the fact it's got 100+ more horsepower.

I'm not talking about the Boss engine either, I'm talking a standard 429 CJ or 428 FE.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Sportscars are like Pokemon. They won't ever go away, they will constantly evolve, and they always suddenly appear.

 

[Badasp5.0]

It's not that they're dying it's that now it's possible to make a practical performance car, something that would be considered an oxymoron 40 years ago.

1969 Chevy Camaro Z28, 302:
0-60: 7.4 seconds
Quarter Mile: 15.2 seconds

1970 Ford Mustang Boss 302:
0-60: 6.4
Quarter Mile: 14.7

2013 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L:
0-60: mph 5.5
Quarter Mile 13.9

2010 Acura TL SH-AWD:
0-60: 5.2
Quarter mile: 13.7

Cars that were considered fast back in the day will easily get their doors blown off at the track by a modern family car; albeit with less smoke, noise and 'murica'. Why have an impractical garage queen when you can have a car you can use every day and still be able to have fun and go fast.

Reminds of a comparo GrassRoots motorsports had a few years ago where they raced classic muscle and sports cars vs a modern minivan.

 

[BobbyBRAKEaNek]

Sportscars are like Pokemon. They won't ever go away, they will constantly evolve, and they always suddenly appear.

GOTTA CATCH EM ALL!!!

 

[Cano]

Reminds of a comparo GrassRoots motorsports had a few years ago where they raced classic muscle and sports cars vs a modern minivan.

Lol, link?

 

[Badasp5.0]

Lol, link?

Holy crap that was 11 years ago! I could have sworn there was a classic corvette in the comparo.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/

 

[eiriksmil]

Anyways, this thread sounds like a couple of Luddites who are afraid of technology. Sporty cars aren't dying out, if anything they are becoming more prevalent than ever. The traditional sports car might be slowly decreasing in popularity but it's pretty easy to get something sporty and fun to drive that's also practical and relatively inexpensive.

Hear, hear.. Even today's grocery getters are loads and loads more effective and fast than the older equivalents. Heck, a BMW 328i isn't even sporty, yet it'll run 14 secs quarters.. Alright so engine sound (relative to whoever judges) and steering feel isn't so good on many newer cars with electric PAS.. Sound can be bettered and the mfrs WILL get electric steering more right..

The only gripe I have is that insulation and comfort brings driver involvement a little on the lower scale.. I'm not worried though, as far as performance goes at least. And when you see Ford pushing out one litre turbo cars in small cars, Audi building their S1, how the C7 Vette is (arguably) better than ever, I don't think we've seen the golden age of performance yet, not to mention the departure of it. Alright, straight six BMW two door sedans from the 70s are pretty rad and sound great and they don't make them like they used to.. True that, they're still obtainable. My next fun car is hopefully a 911 SC.. 180-200 bhp doesn't make it fast, a slightly modded BMW 120i should trump it, but I bet the 911 brings more smiles per mile Like comparing apples to oranges. One is fast, the other has character - I bet they said that in the 60s too.

 

[Slash]

A dipstick gives you an approximate reading with no sense of scale, and the reading will vary based on whether the engine is running or off, which is why manuals recommend the engine be off... and will change based on how long the engine has been off.

The electronic dipstick works while the engine is on, and is only inferior in that it takes longer to get a reading.



I actually broke the top off of my dipstick. And I know people who've lost them.



You can rotate a distributor cap, then deal with the knock and have to use premium gasoline or dial back the timing and not make as much power as you could.

You can retune a motor with a programmer, specifying different fueling strategies and timing advance at every single rpm/load/throttle point, allowing you to get better than stock fuel economy and humongous gains in midrange torque and drivability. On high-performance engines where you don't get big gains, you don't get big gains because the motor is already well-optimized out the door. In other words, it's not handicapped from the factory by poor manifold/carburetor/engine design.


Comparing used to new is never an apples to apples comparison. Of course you can buy a thirty year old car and modifications for less than a brand new car...

A fairer comparison would be comparing brand new to brand new. The price of a brand new Fox Body (inflation adjusted) with absolutely nothing on it is around $24k+++... whereas the outgoing 3.7 liter V6 Mustang, which is over a second faster to 60 mph, costs around $22.5k with power windows an AC.

So, a brand new Fox with $3.5k of mods would be faster than a brand new 2014 Mustang with $5.5k of supercharger?

I don't think so.

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I don't think car performance and driving enjoyment are dying out. If you don't particularly care for the brands and models that carry the torch for driving fun... sure... it's easy to think that, but we've got some brilliant cars out there... the Fiesta... and Fiesta ST... the MINI (however garish it looks, it's still great)... the BRZ/86... the MX-5... the pony cars and the Genesis Coupe...

And with turbochargers all the rage nowadays, more power (more reliable power) is just a cheap reflash away.

So run premium? Most modern performance cars call for it anyways even non performance cars do.


And we are talking about prices of cars now, not 25 years ago. I can go pick up a Fox right now in mint shape for $2k and when I'm done with it with an engine swap it'll roast most cars.

 

[BobbyBRAKEaNek]

No such thing as a $2000 MINT fox body. Highly ragged and over a bused yes. Then a engine swap, for that price first gen Speed 3 is what I would go with or a GTI 2.0T

 

[eiriksmil]

And we are talking about prices of cars now, not 25 years ago. I can go pick up a Fox right now in mint shape for $2k and when I'm done with it with an engine swap it'll roast most cars.

Lol

 

[Slash]

No such thing as a $2000 MINT fox body. Highly ragged and over a bused yes. Then a engine swap, for that price first gen Speed 3 is what I would go with or a GTI 2.0T

Wanna bet? My buddy is selling a '92 2.3L/5 Speed that's never seen a winter for $2k, and that's with Boss graphics on it. I have a line on a running 302 V8 for $100 ($150 with headers) and then for another $250 (IF that) I can swap in springs from a junk V8 car out of the junkyard.

 

[Badasp5.0]

No such thing as a $2000 MINT fox body. Highly ragged and over a bused yes. Then a engine swap, for that price first gen Speed 3 is what I would go with or a GTI 2.0T

This the foxes around here that are in good shape are $4k to $6k.

 

[Slash]

This the foxes around here that are in good shape are $4k to $6k.

I've seen 347 Foxes go for $4k-$6k in mint shape. That's about what I'd have into it anyways buy the time I'd be done with the motor. In fact I considered buying an '86 347 T-Top car for $4,500.

There's a method; doing things on the cheap to an extent to get it worth what an already done car would be worth. Take the 2.3L out, swap in junkyard V8, build junkyard V8 for $3k, replace front coilovers, boom done, $2k car just went up for $6k, $1,000+ profit.

 

[Badasp5.0]

I've seen 347 Foxes go for $4k-$6k in mint shape. That's about what I'd have into it anyways buy the time I'd be done with the motor. In fact I considered buying an '86 347 T-Top car for $4,500.

There's a method; doing things on the cheap to an extent to get it worth what an already done car would be worth. Take the 2.3L out, swap in junkyard V8, build junkyard V8 for $3k, replace front coilovers, boom done, $2k car just went up for $6k, $1,000+ profit.

Markets are different so the prices are different. Foxes are great value for modding for sure.

 

[Slash]

Markets are different so the prices are different. Foxes are great value for modding for sure.

Entirely true 👍

 

[niky]

So run premium? Most modern performance cars call for it anyways even non performance cars do.

Performance engines may often require Premium for maximum power, but electronic ignition control allows them to run on regular... No guesswork with the dizzy. No knock. The Ford V6 will still make over 290 HP on regular gas.

And we are talking about prices of cars now, not 25 years ago. I can go pick up a Fox right now in mint shape for $2k and when I'm done with it with an engine swap it'll roast most cars.

You can buy a car that's been exposed to twenty five years of corrosion, metal fatigue, engine wear, missed shifts, worn synchros, busted shocks and baked upholstery for $2k.

There's no denying that secondhand cars are a bargain. That does not mean they are objectively superior. This would be like saying Le Bron James can kick Michael Jordan's butt in a friendly game today, so he's the better player. That's not how most analysts would see it.

Find me a thirty year old 3.7 V6 and show me how it's slower... Then let's talk.

And once you've done an engine swap, it's not a valid comparison at all, and says nothing about how good the car was in the first place.

 

[Slash]

What difference does it make if the engine going in was offered in that car to begin with?

 

[BobbyBRAKEaNek]

More money and time spent. If you can't do it yourself then it's really gonna cost. If you can do it yourself, how long will it take before you can even drive it. Then newer right now takes it for me. I love a fox body. Always have but it's never had been the perfect car for modding for what I would use it for. Live axle. Uhhhh no thanks, washed out front end.

 

[niky]

What difference does it make if the engine going in was offered in that car to begin with?

What does a swapped Fox body have to do with the question of whether performance cars are dying out? You can swap anything into anything given enough time and patience. Doesn't have any bearing on whether the original item was good or not.

If you have to build it, might as well stick the V8 into a homebuilt Locost chassis... which would give you much better performance.

And that still wouldn't have any bearing on the question.