Are there any drawbacks from using a silencer on a gun?

[DuckRacer]

Last week, I watched the first season of 24 in about 3 days. And I saw Jack Bauer use a silencer in certain situations. Now, are there any tradeoffs when you use one? Like less range, weaker shot, etc...?

 

[NoQuarter]

You can be arrested, as it is a Federal offense to use a silencer.

 

[Sureboss]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question112.htm

From what I understand it does decrease the range and power of the shot (though it still kills).

 

[daan]

Would it lose accuracy as well? Every time you see one on the TV, its always at point blank range.

 

[Keef]

Actually, sliencers can increase the accuracy of your shot, since some designs do actually act as a barrel extension. Besides that, the speed of the bullet can be slowed, giving you less range and power. But, of course, good silencers make a radical change in the volume of the expanding gases, and all from a few extra cubic inches of space for them to fill. I think it's pretty amazing how such a small resevoir can make such a huge difference. In some cases they quiet the percussion so much that you can hear the bolt operation!

 

[Diablomonkey]

The only thing that I could think of is that nose of the gun would be heavier and if you aren't use to it there is a chance that you miss what you are shooting at.

 

[niky]

A silencer actually slows down the bullet, too. (It depends, I guess).

Subsonic rounds from an effectively silenced gun won't travel as far as regular supersonic rounds, and accuracy is adversely affected over distance.

So, while you could conceivably kill a person across a room, you're not going to use James Bond style silenced weapons for building to building urban warfare... but these are old-school silencers... some new designs actually work through sound cancellation instead of gas suppression, and don't affect bullet velocity at all.

 

[NoQuarter]

Actually, sliencers can increase the accuracy of your shot, since some designs do actually act as a barrel extension.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. First, all silencers are barrel extensions. If the silencer ID was the same as the pistol barrel and rifled, this might be true, but it's larger and depending on the design, baffled on the ID to dissipate the gas charge. Also the gas dissipation drops the pressure from the expanding gas from about 3000 psi (varies with caliber) to around 60 to 90 psi, all before the actual round leaves the end of the silencer. This would affect the round, possibly even inducing a tumble mechanism to the trajectory, which would effect accuracy.

Large rounds (.357, .38 and bigger) can be supersonic. That is, the round itself as it travels through the air is contributing to the noise, literally with a micro-sonic "boom".

The only really "silenced" pistols are .22 calibers, since anything larger would have a load behind it that would neccesitate a silencer as big or bigger than the pistol it is attached to, as well as having the supersonic velocity to deal with.

 

[MistaX]

Technically wouldn't a silencer lower recoil, thus improving accuracy if you were firing multiple shots in succession?

 

[daan]

I'm worried by the amount of info you know on this, Ed. Is it something you've looked into?

 

[Slick Rick]

lol thats exactly what I was thinking too...

 

[NoQuarter]

Technically wouldn't a silencer lower recoil, thus improving accuracy if you were firing multiple shots in succession?

Given the inaccuracies the silencer mechanics causes, it's probably a wash

I'm worried by the amount of info you know on this, Ed. Is it something you've looked into?

Heh...actually, yes. The Internet is a wonderful thing. Also, my little brother is a Master Fire Arm instructor for the FHP and a former Delta Ranger.

 

[Keef]

Thanks for the correction, NQ. Are there any silencers that actually are meant to extend the rifling and inprove accuracy? Maybe a built-in design?

 

[Tornado]

First, all silencers are barrel extensions.

Except integral sound depressors, such as the MP5SD series.

The only really "silenced" pistols are .22 calibers, since anything larger would have a load behind it that would neccesitate a silencer as big or bigger than the pistol it is attached to, as well as having the supersonic velocity to deal with.

Agreed, though anything with subsonic ammunition (usually up to .45 ACP, including .38 Special rounds, though not including .357, .44 Magnum, .40 S&W or some forms of 9mm Parabellum) would also be quieted quite a bit, possibly to the level of the weapons bolt and slide being louder than the actual bullet depending on caliber. Though you are correct: only .22 ammo is ever silenced completely.

Given the inaccuracies the silencer mechanics causes, it's probably a wash

In handguns. In rifles it can act as a limiter for the recoil by dissipating some of the blowback gas, in addition to making the weapon heavier, especially in the front (which could probably unbalance the weapon in some cases).

As it stands, the main drawback to using silencers is the decreased muzzle velocity (and, in turn, decreased accuracy and stopping power), increased weight, a change in the balance of a weapon towards the front and an decrease in the practicality of a weapon to due increased length.
That being said, silencers very rarely ever really silence a weapon. They usually change the sound to more of a pop (think a nail gun) and spreads this sound over a wise area, making it harder to pinpoint the location. They also lower the decibels a gun emits, but rarely enough that one could call a gun "quiet."

 

[Josh]

I just purchased a Tac52 for the fiance's Walther P22 and a Tac16 for one of my AR-15's two days ago. Now I play the waiting game for the Form 4's to get approved by the BATFE. ATP in Summerville, SC let me use the 52 on the P22 the night I got it, and it's unbeleivable the difference it makes - and I was indoors using some federal high velocity ammo. Me and two other kids there were laughing at how quiet it was with and without ear protection. Went to Wal-Mart today and picked up some 22 subsonic, and can't wait to try it out.

 

[Gil]

A suppressor, is for the purpose of stealth.
Accuracy is of little importance.
Almost all silenced weapons are used at what Massad Ayoob & Bill Jordan refer to as "conversational distances" (7-12 yards).
On the MP5 H&K, (One of the worlds primary CQB weapons) the longest shot will likely be no longer than the length of a room. This with sub-sonic rounds that will generate enough "oomph" to reliable cycle the action of the weapon.
This also cuts down on the rounds plowing thru walls and hitting uninvolved parties.
A round that is not sub-sonic will still make the noise of the bullet breaking the sound barrier.
Used on a long gun a silencer/suppressor does not so much silence the weapon as it hides the flash, and dissapates the sound so that counter snipers cannot tell where the shot came from.
On pistols, such as the "hush-puppy" the suppressor is for shooting sentry dogs up close, w/o making too much noise--hence the name.
Lastly, all the movies and TV shows where you see a revolver with a silencer...LOAD OF CRAP!!!
Because of the gap between the front of the cylinder and the back of the barrel, a revolver cannot be effectively silenced. Well, unless it remains unfired.

 

[wfooshee]

Slightly OT, but on movie guns, I hate it when auto pistols go click click and the shooter acts all surprised when they're out. The action locks open, no better indication that you're out, and there is no trigger click when it's locked open.

 

[Josh]

Slightly OT, but on movie guns, I hate it when auto pistols go click click and the shooter acts all surprised when they're out. The action locks open, no better indication that you're out, and there is no trigger click when it's locked open.

My fiance's P22 will do the hollywood click click when its empty if you keep pulling... it wouldn't when I bought it, but I took the stock followers out of the magazines, and put shorter one's in so the magazines will hold 13 rounds now instead of 10, and the new +3 follower doesn't have the magazine button on the side to lock the slide open after the last shot.

But in the movie's it's gay when they have the full auto pistol that does the click click multiple times when they don't even let off the trigger. It makes no kinda sense.

 

[lmracer]

its annoying to the people that are gun savvy, but a newb may not know what happened when the trigger happy movie star suddenly stops and goes silent. "click, click" oh, s***! out of ammo!

 

[Gil]

BTW, I forgot to add that the noise of the gun's action cycling will also be heard.
Pistols such as the "Welrod" were designed to only fire one round, and NOT cycle the action, so as not to give away the position of the shooter.
This due to the fact that subsonic .22 makes less noise than a person clearing their throat when fired.
Also, the noise of the shot varies depending on whether a "wet" or "dry" silencer is used.
A "dry" silencer uses a series of washers to dissipate the sound of the gun's report.
A "wet" silencer uses about a teaspoon of water and dissapates the sound even further.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I'm worried by the amount of info you know on this, Ed. Is it something you've looked into?

I was thinking the same thing, but also why a 14 year old wants to know what are the "tradeoffs when you use one? Like less range, weaker shot, etc...?". Kids & guns do not mix!

Although maybe I'm just being overly sensitive considering I have two young children, and after seeing reports over and over again on all these school shootings since Columbine... well, the idea that any young person is showing interest in real guns, especially ones clearly intended for covert operations, like ones with silencers... just sends up way too many red flags for me.

 

[DuckRacer]

I was thinking the same thing, but also why a 14 year old wants to know what are the "tradeoffs when you use one? Like less range, weaker shot, etc...?". Kids & guns do not mix!

Maybe, you know, I'm curious how things work.

 

[Jay]

I was thinking the same thing, but also why a 14 year old wants to know what are the "tradeoffs when you use one? Like less range, weaker shot, etc...?". Kids & guns do not mix!

Although maybe I'm just being overly sensitive considering I have two young children, and after seeing reports over and over again on all these school shootings since Columbine... well, the idea that any young person is showing interest in real guns... just sends up way too many red flags for me.

I had always been into firearms as I was growing up, when I became old enough I joined a Handgun club (which also uses Rifles and Shotguns) bought a bunch of handguns (different types), used them at the range for about two years then got over it. All are sold except one that is at the firearm shop for sale.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

I was thinking the same thing, but also why a 14 year old wants to know what are the "tradeoffs when you use one? Like less range, weaker shot, etc...?". Kids & guns do not mix!

Although maybe I'm just being overly sensitive considering I have two young children, and after seeing reports over and over again on all these school shootings since Columbine... well, the idea that any young person is showing interest in real guns, especially ones clearly intended for covert operations, like ones with silencers... just sends up way too many red flags for me.

Don't worry. A kid has a far better chance of being struck by lightning or attacked by a shark than to be involved in a school shooting. Besides almost never happening, the last two to make the national news were committed by a psychopathic adult. And interest in guns is nothing out of the ordinary. My dad saw that I had interest in firearms, so he taught me how to shoot when I was about 10. I started off with a pellet gun, and then went to .22 when I got a little older and better. Now I've shot all sorts of weapons, from black powder to .357 Magnums, to M1s and AR-15s. But besides just teaching me how to fire a gun, he also taught me respect and responsibility with guns, which is far more important. Kids and guns don't usually mix because most kids do not know how to safely use them. If a kid shows interest (it's obsession with them that would send up red flags for me), I support supporting their interest. If done properly, it can quite constructive.

Sorry to wander off topic, just thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

[Solid Lifters]

You can be arrested, as it is a Federal offense to use a silencer.

Wrong. It's legal for regular citizens to purchase and use silencers (Class 3 Item). You just need to pay the taxes on it, and notify the BATFE with serial information and get approval to use it. However, some states have outlawed them for regular citizens.

The following material explains what steps you must do in order to legally purchase a silencer from one particular vendor that sell silencers.

1. You must be 21 years of age or older and legally able to qualify for the purchase of a regular handgun (meaning no felonies, violent misdemeanors, dishonorable discharges, etc.)

2. Pay us for the product, payment must be in full.

3. Get two 2"x2" passport photographs taken. Attach one to the reverse side of each of the two copies of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATFE) Form 4. These photos typically cost $5 to $10.

4. Complete a small section on the reverse side of the BATFE Form 4 that declares why you wish to possess the item. Most folks say "Collector of firearms".

5. Take the two copies of the Form 4, with pictures attached and your section completed to your local law enforcement agency (city police or county sheriff). Also take the two FBI Form FD-258 fingerprint cards we will give you. Ask the agency to officially take your fingerprints. This will usually cost $10 to $15. Also ask to have the chief of the agency complete his/her section of the reverse side of the Form 4. This merely attests that you are not wanted locally and that the official knows of no law which will be broken if you are approved by the government.

6. Bring us the two copies of the Form 4 and both completed fingerprint cards. We will complete the front of the forms. We then get a money order made out to the BATFE ($5 for an "Any Other Weapon" or $200 for a short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, silencer or machine gun). We will then put the two copies of the completed Form 4's, the two completed fingerprint cards and the money order in an envelope and immediately send it to the BATFE office in Chicago, IL.

7. The BATFE will first remove the money order and examine the paperwork for completeness. Assuming the paperwork is complete (it will be, or we will not mail it in), it will be assigned to an agent, who will have a nationwide FBI background check performed on you. Once you pass this (all legal folks over 21 pass it), the BATFE will mail us back a certified copy of one of the Form 4's we sent them. On this copy will be a stamp that looks like a postage stamp. This is a Federal tax stamp indicating the transfer tax is paid.

8. When we receive this Form 4 back with a stamp on it (about 90 days after we mail it in), we will call you and have you come by the shop on SW 221st in Hillsboro, complete a BATFE Form 4473 and give you the product along with the Form 4. You should immediately make several copies of the Form 4 and carry one with you at all times you have the product. Be sure to put the original in a safe place.

Once you have legal possession of the Class 3/Title 2 item you may not take the item across state lines unless you notify the BATFE in writing before doing so. We have these forms available for a small fee. You are not asking for their approval but, instead, merely letting them know you are taking a Class 3/Title 2 item across state line(s) and when you will depart and return.

You may not loan this Class 3/Title 2 item to anyone! You may not store this item at a friend's home who has access to it. This is a restricted distribution item. To possess it requires (at the very least) an extensive background check. You are obligated by law (and common sense) to prevent unqualified people from gaining access to it. You may let others use the item if they remain in your physical presence. If you decide to sell the item you must bring the item to us (or another Class 3 dealer) and the buyer to legally effect the transfer. The buyer then has to go through all the steps described and pay the required transfer tax, plus a $50 fee to us to handle the paperwork, etc.

Sorry, but this is incorrect.

Actually, for the most part, he is correct.

First, all silencers are barrel extensions. If the silencer ID was the same as the pistol barrel and rifled, this might be true, but it's larger and depending on the design, baffled on the ID to dissipate the gas charge.

No, the silencer doesn't need to be rifled to increase the speed of the bullet. The gas propelling the bullet, though to a lesser extent, is still increasing the speed of the bullet as it travels down the silencer. A silencer, as a standard design, will always increase the speed of a bullet. The term related to increased bullet speed is called "freebore boost."

However, bad silencer design will increase the blowback pressure, increasing the time when the bolt opens, causing escaping gases to go through the ejection port prematurely which will decrease bullet velocity. But, this can easily be avoided by designing a silencer with a large enough "can" (first "stage" of a silencer usually called the "expansion chamber") volume.

Also the gas dissipation drops the pressure from the expanding gas from about 3000 psi (varies with caliber) to around 60 to 90 psi, all before the actual round leaves the end of the silencer. This would affect the round, possibly even inducing a tumble mechanism to the trajectory, which would effect accuracy.

Again, not true. Only in a badly crowned silencer, or a silencer not using a proper pre-exit volume area would this exist. Bad silencer design, strikes again.

Plus, normally, escaping gas pressure is far from uniformly dissipated from the muzzle. Bullet tumble exists with all firearms, silenced or not. Actually, since the muzzle pressure is greatly reduced, so is bullet tumble, overall, thus making silenced firearms more accurate.

Large rounds (.357, .38 and bigger) can be supersonic. That is, the round itself as it travels through the air is contributing to the noise, literally with a micro-sonic "boom".

The bullet actually creating the sonic "boom" (transonic or hypersonic bullets) is a bit misleading. It's more of a "crack" sound, and it's not very loud at all. Listen to some .223 silenced rounds going off on Youtube. It's still very silent.

The only really "silenced" pistols are .22 calibers, since anything larger would have a load behind it that would neccesitate a silencer as big or bigger than the pistol it is attached to, as well as having the supersonic velocity to deal with.

No, not true at all. I know some assault rifles that don't make any gunshot noise (except for clanking metal parts), and they don't use silencers. Spooky, ain't it?

EDIT:

I forgot to answer his questions. There are "negative" and "positive" effects to adding a silencer to a firearm. The negatives are;

1. The increase in blowback will cause more fouling to lodge inside more internals of the firearm. So, you need to clean the firearm more often.

2. The increase in blowback will cause unburnt powder to escape out the ejection port and it could get into the shooters eyes. So, shooting goggles or glasses are a must.

3. The silencer traps heat, causing the silencer, barrel and the rest of the firearm to get a lot hotter. This build up of heat will wear out the parts quicker.

4. The point of impact will ALWAYS change when a silencer is added. When a round goes off, there is ALWAYS barrel movement (mostly up and down, but it includes all directions). Barrel length determines when the bullet leaves during this movement. Increasing the barrel length means the bullet leaves at a different time of barrel movement. Also, the mass of the suppressor will alter the harmonics present in a barrel when a shot is fired. Fortunately, the suppressed zero is usually repeatable. This cannot be avoided. Tandem aiming devices or a device which can calculate two points of impact will be necessary if the weapon is to be used both with and without the suppressor attached.

5) Firearms with a silencer will have a higher cyclic rate. Any automatic weapon with a suppressor attached will have an increased rate of fire due to the fact that a suppressor is designed to contain propellant gases. This has the effect of increasing pressure within the weapon's operating system, so increasing rate of fire. Some types of operation (particularly blowback operations) are more sensitive to this effect than others.

The positives are;

1. Increased accuracy (except for different point of impact).

2. Increase in bullet velocity (for the most part, except for examples I gave above).

3. Reduced noise. (Duh) It saves a shooter hearing (even if ear protection is used)

4. Reduced recoil. Silencers make great compensators. That means, less muzzle flip and felt recoil which will allow the shooter to shoot quicker and more accurately with followup shots. It's also more comfortable to shoot.

5. Muzzle flash is eliminated, allowing the shooter to be "hidden" from anybody trying to find his location.

 

[GT40 MKII]

lets say you are in a situation where you dont want to be detected so.... use a silencer