Bad tire physics could actually be a weight and inertia issue

[sk8er913]

Right now I'm playing to GT6 Demo. Testing out the GTR, and I started to slide around the corners, this ultimately became 5 minutes of doing donuts and various stunts out of boredom. And it feels too simple like something in the physics is missing, possibly rear inertia. I came to this conclusion by how easy it was to change direction while spinning the rear wheels. I at first thought maybe the tire physics are wrong and need to be improved. But after another 90 seconds I decided that the tires grip fine, the thing that's really missing is not actually tire related, but is actually some variables about the weight of the car, the rotation, and how much inertia is acting on the front and rear. Anyone have anything to add or any comments, questions?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So basically a body roll issue and/or weight distribution being insane and unrealistic...

 

[sk8er913]

No, nothing to do body roll. A new algorithm/variables dealing with kinetic energy, to better calculate how much lateral pressure is asserted on the rear tires, when the rear of the car steps out, this could solve part of the arcadey feeling of sliding around the track.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No, nothing to do body roll. A new algorithm/variables dealing with kinetic energy, to better calculate how much lateral pressure is asserted on the rear tires, when the rear of the car steps out, this could solve part of the arcadey feeling of sliding around the track.

If there is a true tire model this should already be there, along with torsional and longitudinal. Also are you talking about GTA or the Demo (I'd assume the Demo). Also how exactly does it feel arcadey, can you expand more so?

 

[tribolik]

Right now I'm playing to GT6 Demo. Testing out the GTR, and I started to slide around the corners, this ultimately because 5 minutes of doing donuts and various stunts out of boredom. And it feels too simple like something in the physics is missing, possibly rear inertia. I came to this conclusion by how easy it was to change direction while spinning the rear wheels. I at first thought maybe the tire physics are wrong and need to be improved. But after another 90 seconds I decided that the tires grip fine, the thing that's really missing is not actually tire related, but is actually some variables about the weight of the car, the rotation, and how much inertia is acting on the front and rear. Anyone have anything to add or any comments, questions?

Probably due to the fact that this car is 4WD.

 

[sk8er913]

If there is a true tire model this should already be there, along with torsional and longitudinal. Also are you talking about GTA or the Demo (I'd assume the Demo). Also how exactly does it feel arcadey, can you expand more so?

I feel like there is far too much control when you are sliding, it almost feels like there is too much grip, but I think now that it's not that the have too much grip but that the inertia of the car is centered, and not front and rear. Which it should be, because it would be a lot better. It was on GTA with the N24 which I thought of this.


(not me driving) This is the kind what I mean the whatever you all it weaving on the straights, I'm sure some people can do it and that it might not be hard (I haven't tried it). but It seems too responsive to the the steering input.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Probably due to the fact that this car is 4WD.

When did Nissan start putting transfer cases in their GT-R?

@sk8er913 I'll have to try it, my PS3 is busted at the moment and I need a new one. So to be honest I can't say why it does this without hypothesizing

 

[sk8er913]

I tried the 350Z out since it is Rear Wheel, the AWD had a little to do with it, but the rotation of the rear of the car is still weird, its like the front of the car has too much influence on the rear under sliding conditions. What is the weight distribution of the car?



Here's some miscellaneous real cars spinning and sliding to compare to GT. First thing I notice is that they have to counter steer much more than is required in Gt Academy.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I tried the 350Z out since it is Rear Wheel, the AWD had a little to do with it, but the rotation of the rear of the car is still weird, its like the front of the car has too much influence on the rear under sliding conditions. What is the weight distribution of the car?

So what I'm getting is the car feels planted on the front and sticks well to the point it wont spin out, thus making the rear feel full of grip even mid-slide or full slide?

Also if you're asking about the Z it should be 53/47 I think.

EDIT: Can't see the video

 

[sk8er913]

So what I'm getting is the car feels planted on the front and sticks well to the point it wont spin out, thus making the rear feel full of grip even mid-slide or full slide?

Also if you're asking about the Z it should be 53/47 I think.

EDIT: Can't see the video

Fixed. And yep GT Physics at its best. lol. I think it could possibly be rotation or a weight issue, and not the grip of the tires or them specifically, but with the way the amount of pressure on them is calculated. Note: GT5 feels the same in this aspect. Although the new models seem to help out a little bit.

Edit: Thinking back to that horrible game called Forza 3. (that was a joke, its actually good at semi sim lolz) First time, I did a lap or two, and I spun out a few times. I was impressed by how the car reacted when I hit the throttle too hard and how the front tires couldn't really help after a certain point and felt that it was different in a way that GTs magical grip. Although Forza's was probably exaggerated, somewhere in the middle of the two models is a good simulation of how a car really reacts under those certain conditions.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Fixed. And yep GT Physics at its best. lol. I think it could possibly be rotation or a weight issue, and not the grip of the tires or them specifically, but with the way the amount of pressure on them is calculated. Note: GT5 feels the same in this aspect. Although the new models seem to help out a little bit.

I think it may be a weight issue that they forgot to calculate in. Or it is just the bare bones version of what we might get in GT6, but I'm not one of the local GT optimist. I'm a massive fan but I live in reality and if it isn't here at the moment I don't think the game will have this fixed come day one.

 

[sk8er913]

I think it may be a weight issue that they forgot to calculate in. Or it is just the bare bones version of what we might get in GT6, but I'm not one of the local GT optimist. I'm a massive fan but I live in reality and if it isn't here at the moment I don't think the game will have this fixed come day one.

It deals with the way the whole car grips, and its one of the biggest things that's missing/needs improvement in the physics! Also, read my edit with the comments about Forza 3's model.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It deals with the way the whole car grips, and its one of the biggest things that's missing/needs improvement in the physics! Also, read my edit with the comments about Forza 3's model.

Before I saw you edit that is exactly what I thought about, and to be honest that was my issue with GT5 too. It felt too much like older FM games and became tedious and impossible to improve on at time when tuned. Yet when you put on certain tires, the grip was that magic feeling where it felt planted most of the time no matter what.

I hate to say it but I still feel we may have to wait for that actual game to pass full judgement.

 

[sk8er913]

Before I saw you edit that is exactly what I thought about, and to be honest that was my issue with GT5 too. It felt too much like older FM games and became tedious and impossible to improve on at time when tuned. Yet when you put on certain tires, the grip was that magic feeling where it felt planted most of the time no matter what.

I hate to say it but I still feel we may have to wait for that actual game to pass full judgement.

Here is Forza 3's version of spinning... see how much faster the car spins and the front tries are almost useless? Unlike GT grip. I think if GT adds rear inertia though this will be fixed... which will lead to more realistic throttle stomping, spinning, sliding... which may lower the amount of throttle stompers.

 

[sems4arsenal]

We have our top scientists working on the title of this thread 👍

 

[Cosbuster]

We have our top scientists working on the title of this thread 👍

Their valiant efforts are not enough. Better dispatch Bob.

 

[MSTER232]

You might complain about GT cars not spinning fast enough due to little rear inertia, but you have to remember that this is just a demo and it doesn't necessarily mean that the final product would be like this. You cannot judge anything until GT6 comes out, you go out and buy the game, put it into your PS3 and try the game for a good hour or so.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You might complain about GT cars not spinning fast enough due to little rear inertia, but you have to remember that this is just a demo and it doesn't necessarily mean that the final product would be like this. You cannot judge anything until GT6 comes out, you go out and buy the game, put it into your PS3 and try the game for a good hour or so.

Exactly what I told him. However, it is understandable how one can be worried if the demo plays a bit weird since it is suppose to be a representation to an extent of what may occur in the full game.

 

[sk8er913]

It's not just about GT6 but the whole GT series no game from GT4-GT academy has had this, everyone always says the tire physics are bad, this could be a big reason why they are so bad and what might need to be improved, and @seems4arsonal, lol yeah I noticed how bad my spelling was on the title, but I don't think I can change it.

 

[Exorcet]

The tires themselves are a problem. It's not just a matter of how much grip, they just don't act like tires. They do not follow the grip vs load curve of real tires and their grip levels are just a static number.

 

[sk8er913]

The tires themselves are a problem. It's not just a matter of how much grip, they just don't act like tires. They do not follow the grip vs load curve of real tires and their grip levels are just a static number.

What if they don't follow the grip vs load, because there is no load?

 

[Exorcet]

If that was the case GT5 would not even be playable.

 

[Wolfe]

sk8er913, while I have not had a shot with the GT6 demo yet, I know exactly what you mean:

...the rotation of the rear of the car is still weird, its like the front of the car has too much influence on the rear under sliding conditions.

For whatever reason, angular momentum is just pissed away into thin air whenever you countersteer, allowing the front wheels to "pull" the car out of oversteer even on a RWD car. You don't get the sense that you're steering the front wheels, it feels like you're "tugging" the front end around. When you launch into a low-speed RWD burnout and whip the steering from side to side, the way the car pivots and wanders defies reality.

How am I so familiar with this? The same problem exists in Forza Motorsport 4 (and Horizon), and has plagued would-be simulators for years. It's evident from several videos of the GT6 demo that the same thing is going on here. It's difficult to pinpoint a single root cause -- there could be multiple errors at work -- but the bottom line is that neither GT or Forza can seem to figure out fundamental kinetics with regard to rotation, oversteer, and the forces involved. When you have experience with a balanced RWD car, trying to "steer with your right foot" in either game is a frustrating tease; it mostly works, but not in a way that's truly intuitive or natural.

Nonetheless, it must be said that both games are way ahead of where they used to be. 👍

 

[MattFo13141589]

Well the demo is not the finished game yet, so we won't know until it comes out

 

[nostuner03]

Well the demo is not the finished game yet, so we won't know until it comes out

True but, the demo shows PD's possible direction they're taking with the current physics model. And I for one, am not to happy with the way things felt when I drove. But hopefully things will be revised when the game drops.

 

[sems4arsenal]

It's not just about GT6 but the whole GT series no game from GT4-GT academy has had this, everyone always says the tire physics are bad, this could be a big reason why they are so bad and what might need to be improved, and @seems4arsonal, lol yeah I noticed how bad my spelling was on the title, but I don't think I can change it.

Just click the Edit button on the First post and you can edit the title from there 👍

@Cosbuster

 

[sk8er913]

sk8er913, while I have not had a shot with the GT6 demo yet, I know exactly what you mean:

For whatever reason, angular momentum is just pissed away into thin air whenever you countersteer, allowing the front wheels to "pull" the car out of oversteer even on a RWD car. You don't get the sense that you're steering the front wheels, it feels like you're "tugging" the front end around. When you launch into a low-speed RWD burnout and whip the steering from side to side, the way the car pivots and wanders defies reality.

How am I so familiar with this? The same problem exists in Forza Motorsport 4 (and Horizon), and has plagued would-be simulators for years. It's evident from several videos of the GT6 demo that the same thing is going on here. It's difficult to pinpoint a single root cause -- there could be multiple errors at work -- but the bottom line is that neither GT or Forza can seem to figure out fundamental kinetics with regard to rotation, oversteer, and the forces involved. When you have experience with a balanced RWD car, trying to "steer with your right foot" in either game is a frustrating tease; it mostly works, but not in a way that's truly intuitive or natural.

Nonetheless, it must be said that both games are way ahead of where they used to be. 👍

Forza 3 and GT take different approaches to this, and I think if they work together (will never happen). They could combine their knowledge and fix it.

 

[Foxiol]

What I found wrong in the overall physics were the weight transfer, inertia and brakes. The rest feels right but maybe tyres needs a little bit of work too.

The game feels good but not as "natural" as I would like it to be.

Hope PD can work in those related areas.

 

[avens]

When I tried the demo I thought it was the GT5 tire model.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well the demo is not the finished game yet, so we won't know until it comes out

That's a cop-out really the game isn't like pcars and in a pre-alpha state, it's in the beta portion and to be honest most of the important stuff should be done. So the physics engine is probably the biggest thing for the game and just doesn't get remodeled with in a few months, like I said prior if this is the issue we are seeing it is very possible it will be in the finished product.